Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100?

[Coffey]

His selling was so bad it was business-exposing.

[sek69]

His selling was so bad it was business-exposing.

 

That seems to be a bit of an overstatement since that wasn't even the worst oversell job he's ever done.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I thought it was right in line with Shawn's usual shitty selling. Nothing exceptional. I was more annoyed that they spent 25 minutes on that angle.

[NintendoLogic]

Last night's Raw isn't the only thing leading me to believe that I like Shawn quite a bit less than I thought I did. I recently compiled a list of my 50 favorite matches, and Shawn was only on two of them. Then again, I've always kind of had the sense that Shawn's been in a bunch of quality matches but not that many essential ones. Like, GFBE is objectively a really good match, but there's plenty of matches I'd place above it.

[Chess Knight]

Looks like I'm a bigger Michaels fan than most here and will say if I made a top 100 matches of all time I'd probably only consider Mind Games as an inclusion. I'd have to watch the best Rockers stuff again, but there's way too much good wrestling for him to be in a personal list of top 100 matches more than twice.

[Coffey]

Hmm, my mood definitely changes my thought process as it pertains to fairly (or unfairly) criticizing wrestlers. I think Shawn Michaels is definitely in my Top 100 & Kurt Angle is definitely not. John Cena is up-in-the-air at the moment as currently, I can't put him above guys like Scott Steiner, which I think a lot of it has to do with nostalgia. Those early 90's Steiner tags where Scotty was just busting out the Frankensteiner are a lot of fun to me.

 

I am trying to form a list, for the first time, however. An actual pen-to-paper list that I can number & update over time so when threads come up like this I can look & answer.

[tomk]

Where do people stand on Michaels v Inoki?

 

This is a really interesting comparison.

I helped put together the 80s New Japan set and watching endless Inoki gave me a better understanding of what Shawn fans like in him. Most of the things that sane fans of Shawn (as distinguished from Alvarez type devotee) say about him apply to Inoki.

Yes he is willing to do nothing on smaller matches (let opponent do all their stuff and then brush it off before hitting listless kick), but he delivers in the big matches,can create this semi-epic aura, is really good at babyface timing, connection with audience, selling gimmick match, working underdog v monster heel, good at the big picture stuff, creating cohesive whole, character work, etc.

 

So in some senses very similar workers and watching alot of Inoki made me better understand the appeal of HBK.

That said I think Inoki easily has longevity on Michaels, is more versatyle, has worked a wider variety of opponents, has a more well rounded offense(not just better as I could see someone thinking HBK's moonsault is better than Inoki's flying moves), is more giving, and has a deeper coonection with audience.

 

Not sure if the comparison of shared opponents would do Michaels any favors.

 

Not here nor there but I much prefered watching indy headlined by Inoki disciple Ishikawa then I did watching one headlined by HBK disciple Justin Credible.

 

All that said, I don't think Inoki would make my top 100 workers of all time either.

 

With all the Demolition talk here, where would people rank Eadie?

[Matt D]

I think Eadie is probably the best guy I've ever seen (fully admitting my massive black holes) at making every single thing he did matter and making his opponent work for every inch while still being absolutely giving in the name of the match.

 

Now that's just one aspect of wrestling, but I'm not sure I've ever seen a guy in the ring who I felt knew what he was doing at every point more than Eadie. He's also hugely versatile. There's such a wide expanse between the Masked Superstar gimmick in Demolition, but as Ax he was able to play his role so well as a monster against smaller faces, as a chickenshit against superstars faces, vulnerable against giant heels, full of righteous fury vs chickenshit heels. And he could still turn it up a notch against the Rockers.

 

And I've written a lot of words about this. Granted, that was a few years ago. Granted, I'm in a slightly different place and have watched a lot of wrestling sense. But i believe it.

[tomk]

This is an aside, but I think you really hurt your cause when discussing someone like Shawn and using Dustin Rhodes as your comparison. It's been the "cute" thing to do for a long time in these circles, but it is a bad approach for any attempt to substantively discuss Michaels or reevaluate his place in history.

 

I understand the shock value of it. But when you use someone who wasn't especially well received at the time (or historically) by most fans, the strong points you make are lost. When you are preaching to the choir it may work. It doesn't work for any kind of discussion with anyone outside this narrow circle.

 

I've read some variety on this a bunch of times over the years and as an early user of "Dustin comparisons"it always seems odd to me.

 

Some guy said HHH was a top ten of all time wrestler.

Now, in theory I could write about how he is not as good as Terry Funk, and not as good as , etc, etc. and slowly fill out a top ten without him. But that seems pointless and uninteresting.

 

When I argued that he wasn't as good as Dustin the point wasn't that Dustin was top ten guy. Point was that HHH's work didn't compare favorably to someone who wasn't received as a top ten guy at any point in time.

 

If someone tells me that Hirai is a top ten Japanese worker, I'm not going to respond by showing how he compares poorly with Misawa, I'm going to start with Kakihara. That doesn't mean I think Kakihara is a top 100 worker.

Kakihara isn't a GOAT candidate, he's a " a fine wrestler, nothing more". It's what makes him a useful comparison.

[NintendoLogic]

The question in this thread isn't whether Shawn is top 10 all-time. It's whether he's top 100 all-time. Saying that Dustin is but Shawn isn't is a bit dubious in my eyes.

[tomk]

Would you rank Dustin above Inoki?

Would you rank him above Kakihara?

[tomk]

Steamboat's arm work is one of the things I like least about him. It never led to anything and was little more than filler.

 

It made sense if he was going for the Double-Chickenwing.

 

 

Not if he abandons it once they start to pick up the pace.

 

He always had the Arm Drag! :-)

Yes he won some matches with the double chickenwing and he beat Slaughter-Kernoodle with the Weaver lock, but most of Steamboat's spots, the arm drags, the superplex, the bridging out of suplex into pin, the double knees on bridged opponent exchange, the ccrossbody etc....were building toward back exposure. There was a time where signature moves weren't finishers, the Garvin Stomp wasn't a finisher it was a way to weaken opponent up for a finisher.

 

We live in a different world than we once did. In this post Kobashi, post-Angle/HBK, post Dragon's Gate cooperative world Dick Murdoch v Steamboat would be said to have good focused body part work if the match went as follows" Steamboat goes for chickenwing only for Murdoch to escape and hit a brainbuster followed by a calf branding for two,,,they roll to floor where they exchange chops and punches and irish whip each other into the rails and ring steps only for Murdoch to take control and calf brand Steamboat into the ring post, steamboat now sells his neck which will be vulnerable to top rope brainbuster"

 

There once was a different time, where wrestlers fought and struggled for holds, where they pushed and shoved in collar elbows trying to get control of their opponent, where Baba would fight off Jack Brisco's attempt to get a backbreaker for an entire fall, Brisco wouldn't work over the back to make backbreaker more effective, he would work over the opponent to weaken them or control them technically so much that they couldn't fight off the backbreaker, Murdoch would work an arm not because the brainbuster was a move that was applied to the arm but because if you had an arm you would use it to fight off the brainbuster. Body part work meant something different.

 

It was a different time, not a simpler one just different.

[Badlittlekitten]

Apologies for bringing this one back from the dead. I just wanted to say how grateful I am for this thread. I probably wouldn't be aware of a lot of my favourite wrestlers if I didn't read this a few years back. That's what makes this board great; whilst I'm still a big fan of HBshizzle, I certainly don't find the notion of him not making a top 100 ludicrous like I did when I first saw this thread. He was once a top ten guy for me. That's the value in seeking a path beyond received wisdom and judging with your own pair of eyes.

 

I've been thinking about who I would rank in my GOAT list for a while but haven't seen enough footage (no Luchadores!) to feel comfortable making a proper top 100 yet. Would Shawn make my current top 50? I'm not sure . .

 

Workers I'd definitely put above him (in fairly rough order)

 

Ric Flair

Stan Hansen

Jumbo Tsuruta

Tatsumi Fujinami

Terry Funk

Buddy Rose

Jaguar Yokota

Akira Hokuto

Jerry Lawler

Toshiaki Kawada

Daniel Bryan

Rey Mysterio

Barry Windham

Chigusa Nagayo

Jim Breaks

Nick Bockwinkle

Mitsuharu Misawa

Dustin Rhodes

Kenta Kobashi

Arn Anderson

Vader

Ricky Morton

Bull Nakano

John Cena

Ricky Steamboat

Akira Taue

Rick Martel

Randy Savage

William Regal

Bobby Eaton

Bill Dundee

Eddy Guerrero

Riki Chosu

Devil Masami

Child Killer

Bob Backlund

Bret Hart

Tully Blanchard

 

Guys I would almost certainly rank above him after viewing more footage . .

 

Yuki Ishikawa

Finlay

Billy Robinson

Shinya Hashimoto

Jushin Liger

Genichiro Tenryu

Hiroshi Hase

Dick Togo

Fujiwara

Over half a dozen Luchadores

 

So, yeah, it’s not looking good for Shawn for top 50 which surprises me somewhat.

 

 

There are also the guys/girls who I’d use to fill a possible 100 that I’d likely put below Shawn, but I'm not 100% sure. .

 

Jerry Blackwell

Taka Michinoku

Great Sasuke

Yatsu

Masa Fuchi

Marty Jones

Mick McManus

Alan Sarjeant

Sid Cooper

Johnny Saint

Greg Valentine

Dick Murdoch

Tommy Rich

Tracy Smothers

Curt Hennig

Mick Foley

Steve Austin

Ted Dibiase

Steve Williams

Aja Kong

Dynamite Kansai

Manami Toyata

Dump Matsamoto

Hulk Hogan

CM Punk

Mark Henry

Carlos Colon

 

There’s lots of people missing of course and yadda yadda. Not sure if any of this makes sense. I just wanted an excuse to make a list in all honesty.

 

 

Oh! Before I forget go I have to ask - Dylan and Loss are two guys whose opinions I respect the hell out of and I’m interested to know what their arguments for Terry Gordy, Sgt Slaughter, Owen Hart, Megumi Kudo, Dutch Mantel, Kroffat/Furnas and Lioness Asuka over Shawn are.

 

Ed Wiskoski, Sakie Hasegawa, Takako Inoue, Toshiyo Yamanda and Yumiko Hotta are folks I don't think I can be convinced with (and I'm the biggest Hotta fan on Earth).