Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100?

[goodhelmet]

I LIKE ALL OF THESE MATCHES…

The Rockers VS The Orient Express Royal Rumble 1991

- Excellent fast paced tag with plenty of big moves and keeping the crowd rocking the entire time. I am going to start working on the 1991 yearbook next month so I should have more to say then.

 

April, 19, 1992 WWF World Champ Randy Savage pinned Shawn Michaels

- Great match for Shawn in this period but it was Macho Man wrestling on one leg. Pretty easy to generate heat when you are attacking a one legged man but I give Shawn props here.

 

1993 WWF I-C Champ Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty Royal Rumble 1993

7/19/93 Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty

- I really like this series… the break-up angle and the matches. What I enjoyed is that even though Shawn was clearly going to get the big push coming out of this, he actually allows Jannetty to play him as an equal as it should be for two tag partners who just broke up. I don’t think either should be considered MOTYCs for 1993 which was a loaded year match-wise but I think after working together for the past 6 years, they know each other well enough that their TV matches are almost always good. In the house show matches I have seen, not so good. A lot of headlocks from Shawn and laying around.

 

WrestleMania X March 20, 1994 WWF I-C Champ Razor Ramon beat Shawn Michaels

- I don’t penalize this match because better ladder matches came after it. Both guys broke out big spots, shit that just wasn’t being done at the time at a national level and it deserves its status as a legendary match.

 

10/30/94 Shawn Michaels/Diesel vs. Razor Ramon/123 Kid

- My buddy Naylor loves this match. I enjoy it too but I think it loses some of its luster on repeated viewing. I don’t know how much credit you give to Shawn in this match but the thing I remember most is Nash laying down for the superkick for 6 minutes so he wouldn’t fuck the rest of the match up.

[jdw]

With no thought giving over to why they better. I haven't done a full list, (If i've missed any good single matches, please add) as i left out most of his WWF tag matches and his AWA run, but i've put all his good to to great matches in his WWF/WWE run.

 

Saturday Night's Main Event October 31, 1989 The Rockers VS Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard in three falls.

WTF?

 

Match #21 - 10/31/89 Rockers vs. Brainbusters (1:50, 1:00, 3:43)

Taped: Expocentre, Topeka, KS

Aired: 11/25/89 Saturday Night's Main Event

 

Fall #1 was Heel-In-Peril with Tully going down in 1:50 to Marty. Fall #1 was Heel-In-Peril with both Arn and mostly Tully getting their asses kicked before pinning Shawn out of nowhere in 1:00. Two falls, 2:50 of bell-to-bell "action". About three minutes of face in peril with Shawn to start the third fall, then a quicky at 3:43.

 

All told, 6:33 of bell time, surrounded by Hennan and Ventura burying Arn & Tully with words while the Rockers bury them with work.

 

Fuck me. I can't believe this woodpile match finished above the Backlund-Slaughter cage match, and that it had several people voting it #2 on their lists.

Always thought this was a dogshit burial of a match. There are plenty of good Rockers matches out there, and lots of good Arn & Tully matches out there. "This is nothing more than a Nitro match booked by Vince Russo."

 

Not a match that I would hold up as an example of The Greatness of Shawn.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

WrestleMania XII March 31, 1996 Shawn Michaels VS Bret Hart

- What a painful viewing experience. I can watch Curt Hennig and Nick Bockwinkel go for an hour, no problem. Samoa Joe-CM Punk? Check. The fact that there was one fall in 70 minutes makes this one of the slowest, least dramatic Ironman matches out there. It says something that these two guys were the best of the best in the company but couldn’t put together a classic match. How it got a reputation as a classic match, I would be interested to hear it.

I fucking hate this match with a passion. I watched it once and it felt like I sat through 4 hours of shit. I seem to remember that Michaels completely fell apart as a worker during the last 20-30 minutes of the match too.

[Grimmas]

The Demolition match from late 88 against The Rockers in MSG is awesome too, Will.

[Matt D]

The Demolition match from late 88 against The Rockers in MSG is awesome too, Will.

Despite Michaels being bitchy and saying that Demos didn't give them nearly enough, which is blatantly moronic and perfectly false. (He adds for the fourth time)

[jdw]

There is a Demo thread for this stuff. Will seemed to create it to avoid derailing the Shawn topic of the thread.

[Matt D]

We can't talk about Shawn Michaels' attitude noted in a Shawn Michaels book about a Shawn Michaels match in the Shawn Michaels note?

 

Ok, we can talk about it in the other note.

 

EXCEPT it's a match with Shawn Michaels in it, and we have a note specifically about Shawn Michaels matches, so obviously we can't talk about it in the Demolition note, because we have a note specifically about Shawn Michaels. We are in Catch-22 land here.

 

I get where you're coming from, John, but it's a little silly.

 

Let's make this reply productive at least: Quote in question, which I think is pretty damn interesting as it pertains to Shawn and his understanding of wrestling in general. I retyped it off of books.google.com after a quick search. Also I get that wrestlers are carnies in books, but I tend to believe Shawn feels this way.

 

"We only had trouble with a few teams - like Demolition - who were too worried about looking "strong" to put on a great match. This was our first experience with the whole "how does that make me look" attitude. Before, our main concern was having a great match. We didn't know there was any other concept except trying to tear the house down. Rock 'n' Roll, Terry Taylor, and Ted Dibiase taught me that in Mid South, and Buddy Rose taught both Mary and me that in the AWA. We believed, and I still believe today, that if you have a great match, everyone looks strong. That's how I got over in my career. No one in this company ever had a plan to go with Shawn Michaels as their number one guy. My work put me into that position, and Marty's and my work made us a great tag team. "Strong" to us was people yelling loud. Demolition's definition of strong was how few times you went down. They were more concerned with getting themselves over than having a great match, and that's not right. We still had good matches with them, but they weren't as good as they could have been. We'd hit them with double dropkicks and they'd stagger. We'd have to hit them with two or three before they would finally go down. We knocked everyone else down with one.

 

Our very first match at Madison Square Garden was against Demolition. Wrestling in the Garden was a huge milestone for me, something I had dreamed of since high school. We wanted to have a great match that night, bu tit was just good. They just wouldn't give enough. But we had a nice little spot in the company and we weren't about to say or do anything that would stir things up. We knew what would happen if we did.

Page 136, Heartbreak & Tragedy: The Shawn Michaels story.

 

That mindset pretty much misses completely the idea of a role, that it'll take more to knock down Andre than Ray Rougeau, that the heel tag champs should be protected in a different way than the Conquistadors, and that them falling down matters to the match way more when the babyfaces have to earn it. That having an exciting match doesn't necessarily mean you have a GOOD match.

 

So those are Shawn's thoughts and my problems with them. That I think Demos gave very well in that match and very smartly and that it was an exciting match with more meaning and resonance than a lot of other Rockers matches from the era is really beyond the point.

[jdw]

We can't talk about Shawn Michaels' attitude noted in a Shawn Michaels book about a Shawn Michaels match in the Shawn Michaels note?

You right... I saw Demo rather than Rockets. Carry on...

 

John

[ragemaster]

We can't talk about Shawn Michaels' attitude noted in a Shawn Michaels book about a Shawn Michaels match in the Shawn Michaels note?

 

Ok, we can talk about it in the other note.

 

EXCEPT it's a match with Shawn Michaels in it, and we have a note specifically about Shawn Michaels matches, so obviously we can't talk about it in the Demolition note, because we have a note specifically about Shawn Michaels. We are in Catch-22 land here.

 

I get where you're coming from, John, but it's a little silly.

 

Let's make this reply productive at least: Quote in question, which I think is pretty damn interesting as it pertains to Shawn and his understanding of wrestling in general. I retyped it off of books.google.com after a quick search. Also I get that wrestlers are carnies in books, but I tend to believe Shawn feels this way.

 

"We only had trouble with a few teams - like Demolition - who were too worried about looking "strong" to put on a great match. This was our first experience with the whole "how does that make me look" attitude. Before, our main concern was having a great match. We didn't know there was any other concept except trying to tear the house down. Rock 'n' Roll, Terry Taylor, and Ted Dibiase taught me that in Mid South, and Buddy Rose taught both Mary and me that in the AWA. We believed, and I still believe today, that if you have a great match, everyone looks strong. That's how I got over in my career. No one in this company ever had a plan to go with Shawn Michaels as their number one guy. My work put me into that position, and Marty's and my work made us a great tag team. "Strong" to us was people yelling loud. Demolition's definition of strong was how few times you went down. They were more concerned with getting themselves over than having a great match, and that's not right. We still had good matches with them, but they weren't as good as they could have been. We'd hit them with double dropkicks and they'd stagger. We'd have to hit them with two or three before they would finally go down. We knocked everyone else down with one.

 

Our very first match at Madison Square Garden was against Demolition. Wrestling in the Garden was a huge milestone for me, something I had dreamed of since high school. We wanted to have a great match that night, bu tit was just good. They just wouldn't give enough. But we had a nice little spot in the company and we weren't about to say or do anything that would stir things up. We knew what would happen if we did.

Page 136, Heartbreak & Tragedy: The Shawn Michaels story.

 

That mindset pretty much misses completely the idea of a role, that it'll take more to knock down Andre than Ray Rougeau, that the heel tag champs should be protected in a different way than the Conquistadors, and that them falling down matters to the match way more when the babyfaces have to earn it. That having an exciting match doesn't necessarily mean you have a GOOD match.

 

So those are Shawn's thoughts and my problems with them. That I think Demos gave very well in that match and very smartly and that it was an exciting match with more meaning and resonance than a lot of other Rockers matches from the era is really beyond the point.

 

Ok your highlighting your problems with Shawn, because of his opinions he's expressed in a book. A book according to most accounts he had very little to do with, so who knows how much of it are his word's or not. Even if those are his thought's and you disagree with his view's. Um what does that have to do with this thread about where he would land in your top hundred. Shawn's backstage politics and antics and view's on his own matches should have nothing to do with how we view his in ring work. Also you know he is allowed to have his own opinion's, just because you disagree it doesn't make you opinions more valid or his less valid. Don't forget there's more than one way to work a match and every worker's going to have different opinions on what's the best way to work.

[Matt D]

I'm not even sure what to do with that.

 

Anyway, I think a hell of a lot less of Flair for the same sort of reasons, if it makes you feel better.

 

If I differ in opinion with a wrestler when it comes to some very essential aspects of wrestling, it is very likely i will like their work less and rank them lower than I might otherwise? This seems like a reasonable tenet to me.

[ragemaster]

I'm not even sure what to do with that.

 

Anyway, I think a hell of a lot less of Flair for the same sort of reasons, if it makes you feel better.

 

If I differ in opinion with a wrestler when it comes to some very essential aspects of wrestling, it is very likely i will like their work less and rank them lower than I might otherwise? This seems like a reasonable tenet to me.

But the matches' are the same quality whether you know the wrestler's opinions or not. In the quote you gave "Rock 'n' Roll, Terry Taylor, and Ted Dibiase taught me that in Mid South, and Buddy Rose taught both Mary and me that in the AWA" So do you have a lower respect for Dibiase, Tayor, Rock 'n' Roll and Rose because they taught Shawn the wrong way, according to how you view wrestling should be.

[Matt D]

If you know what to look for, you notice certain things. I wish I could watch Flair matches, for instance, in blissful ignorance, like I could five years ago. Unfortunately, I can't. Tito matches too, though I kind of like his formula so I don't mind as much.

[goodhelmet]

For what it's worth, the Rockers-Demo match has been nominated for the new WWF set but isn't a lock. I plan on watching it this summer.

[tlk23]

I am not sure if this ever got done.

 

You can take...

Sting

vs. Ric Flair Clash of the Champions I (****1/2)

vs. Vader Starrcade 92 (****1/2)

vs. Cactus Jack Beach Blash 92 (****1/2)

vs. Steiner Brothers SuperBrawl I (****1/2)

vs. Vader SuperBrawl III (Strap Match) (****1/4)

 

Andre

vs. Hulk Hogan WM III

vs. Hulk Hogan The Main Event

As far as significants goes, these two are without a doubt the top two. It's up to you after that.

 

Greg Valentine

vs. Roddy Piper Starrcade 83 Dog Collar Match

vs. The British Bulldogs WM 2 (****)

vs. The Rougeaus The Big Event (****)

vs. Tito Santana MSG Jan. 1985

I am sure you could put a Flair or Steamboat match in the mix somewhere.

 

Tito Santana

vs. Randy Savage MSG April 1986

w/Bruno vs. Randy Savage/Adrian Adonis MSG August 1986

v/Martel vs. The High Flyers August 1982

 

Curt Hennig

vs. Bret Hart Summerslam 1991

vs. Bret Hart Oct. 1989 Wheeling, WV

vs. Nick Bockwinkel AWA SuperClash II 1987

vs. Bret Hart King of the Ring 1993

 

I'll take...

William Regal

vs. Chris Benoit No Mercy 2006

vs. Ultimo Dragon Slamboree 1997

vs. Fit Finlay Uncensored 1996

vs. Sting Great American Bash 1996

 

Brian Pillman

vs. Liger SuperBrawl II

vs. Steamboat/Douglas Starrcade 1992

vs. Ric Flair/Arn Anderson Clash of the Champions XXIII

vs. Johnny B. Badd Fall Brawl 95

 

Terry Gordy

vs. The Steiners Clash of the Champions XIX

vs. The Von Erichs, some 6 Man Tag

vs. Some Tag match in Japan

 

Randy Savage

vs. Ricky Steamboat WM III

vs. Ultimate Warrior WM VII

vs. Ric Flair WM VIII

vs. DDP Great American Bash 1997

vs. Ric Flair Great American Bash 1995

 

Ted Dibiase

vs. vs. Hacksaw Duggan (No DQ, Loser Leaves Town, Coal Miner's Glove on a Poll, Tuxedo, Cage match) March 1985

vs. Ric Flair November 1985

vs. Duggan March 1985

vs. Randy Savage MSG July 1988

vs. Bret Hart 3/8/89 Odessa TX aired Prime Time 3/20/89)

 

 

 

Shawn Michaels

vs. Undertaker (Badd Blodd 1997/WM25/WM26)

vs. Razor Ramon (WM X/Summerslam 1995)

vs. Kurt Angle (WM XXI/Vengeance 2005)

vs. HHH/Chris Benoit (WM XX/Backlash 2004)

vs. Mankind (In Your House 10 Sept. 1996)

vs. Chris Jericho (WM XIX/No Mercy 2008 Ladder Match/Great American Bash 2008)

vs. Diesel (In Your House 7 April 1996)

vs. Jeff Jarrett (In Your House 2 July 1995)

vs. Bret Hart (Survivor Series 1992)

 

I could add another dozen and a half **** matches, but you get the point. This whole thread is really quite laughable to people on the outside.

[Loss]

"Quite laughable to people on the outside"

 

"Some tag match in Japan"

[anarchistxx]

This kind of discussion would appear fairly absurd to general smart fans and general wrestling fans who see HBK as a lock for the top ten of all time. Then again, to the general population 99% of discussion on a forum like this seems absurd, so what's new. This has been going on for years really, in 2005 people were claiming Rosey was a better worker than Michaels. So the whole argument has become slightly silly and oversone and not, for me, worth having. The people who think Michaels os overrated aren't budging, and neither are the ones who think their viewpoint is ridiculous.

 

I personally would include Michaels in a mandatory top hundred of all time - he's been in too many matches I enjoyed to claim otherwise, although I suppose if I'd seen every worldwide pimped worker as much as I'd seen Michaels it might be somewhat closer (although that does mean I've seen his worst stuff as well as his best, which isn't something I could say for the Puro workers I'm into).

[Loss]

I think I liked Shawn more prior to the yearbooks. When you see him in a similar role to Kenta Kobashi, then compare their output, it's a pretty striking difference. Shawn has at times been one of the best wrestlers in the country. Shawn has never really been one of the best in the world.

[ohtani's jacket]

I am not sure if this ever got done.

Of course Shawn is going to look better if your match choices are so poor.

[Chess Knight]

Hell half of the matches he listed for Shawn aren't even very good. And some of the good ones don't show that good a Michaels performance at all.

[Victator]

Shawn put in a great performance against Hacksaw Duggan in a lumberjack match. His bumping and selling were perfect because watching it you never thing "Boy look at Shawn go." instead you think "Man Hacksaw is kicking his ass."

 

It was a pretty long match and it was always entertaining and it was almost all Shawn.

[Smack2k]

Shawn would certainly make my Top 100...but I am a 100% US / North America focused fan.....

 

He would certainly even make my Top 10....but a lot of that is due to him being a personal favorite as I was growing up...so there is a lot of bias there.

 

But his in ring work is phenomenal and to me, got better for his 2002 - 2011 run...

[Matt D]

Shawn would certainly make my Top 100...but I am a 100% US / North America focused fan.....

 

He would certainly even make my Top 10....but a lot of that is due to him being a personal favorite as I was growing up...so there is a lot of bias there.

 

But his in ring work is phenomenal and to me, got better for his 2002 - 2011 run...

care to explain how?

[NintendoLogic]

I go out of town for a couple of weeks and you all start a discussion about fucking Kane? Come on, guys.

 

I'd just like to mention, once again, that I think that matches aren't the be all and all. Warrior probably had more "great matches" in the WWF than DiBiase did in the WWF, does that mean that Warrior > DiBiase?

 

Matches are just one measure. Any true comparison of Shawn and another wrestler has to take other things into account. It has to be an holistic comparison. It doesn't just come to "Well Shawn had 15 great matches and Ted only had 8, so Shawn wins". That approach seems rather crude to me.

I agree that "Wrestler A's best match is better than Wrestler B's best match, so Wrestler A is better" is too simplistic. But if Wrestler B doesn't have a single match that would make Wrestler A's top ten, I think it's safe to say that Wrestler A is better.

[NintendoLogic]

Shawn's performance on Raw tonight has made me question every single positive thing I said about him in this thread.

[Cox]

He took a good bump off the F5, which is one more bump than I thought he would take tonight. That's something. Everything else sucked.