Gregor Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Someone embellish me and tell me why I'm wrong.Okay, I'll try. You're seven feet tall and probably the best dancer on this entire message board. I dunno if that even works. As to the second part of your request - well, I can't really tell you that you're wrong, even if I don't agree completely. His lack of offense did hurt him as a heel, and a lot of his heel matches really dragged and lost focus in the middle. As a face, though, he didn't suffer that much from a lack of offense or an inability to seem tough. I don't think that was it. His match with Jeff Jarrett is great; he doesn't seem at all like a guy who'd hurt you in that match, and his offense is no better or worse than it usually is. My biggest pet peeve with face Michaels is his comebacks. Not the nip-up - for whatever reason that's never bugged me. It's more that, once he bounces up, it's too often all over. His finishing sequence lasts like two minutes, and it doesn't always seem proportionate to how much time the other guy was in control. A lot of times, the other guy never even gets another shot in on Michaels, which makes that part of the match seem boring and uncompetitive. And he always (not literally always - there are two exceptions) finished matches with the superkick. He just kind of ran through guys a lot. This isn't to say that I think he's a good offensive wrestler who just struggles with his comebacks. He had some good stuff, but he often didn't use it. Then you have matches like the Vader match, when Michaels does a bunch of cool stuff to start out the match (dive over the top, victory roll out of the ring, rana) and doesn't have much left in his arsenal by the time he has to make his comeback. He also had really good straight jabs, and those are a move that fit his character/style of wrestling, but he used them sparingly. His struggles as an offensive wrestler, to me, were more about his doing the wrong stuff and failing to do compelling things with it than they were about his flat-out not having it or looking weak. At Good Friends Better Enemies his "superhuman comeback" is about as "bad" as it gets from the perspective of blowing off the previous work of the match.I know you said that you weren't down on that comeback, but what was it that seemed like blowing off previous work? It's never struck me that way; he seemed suitably fatigued and collapsed whenever Diesel cut him off, as if he'd expended all of his energy into taking control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 It's more that, once he bounces up, it's too often all over. His finishing sequence lasts like two minutes, and it doesn't always seem proportionate to how much time the other guy was in control. A lot of times, the other guy never even gets another shot in on Michaels, which makes that part of the match seem boring and uncompetitive. And he always (not literally always - there are two exceptions) finished matches with the superkick. He just kind of ran through guys a lot. I'm curious (and I know you were sort of fishing for flaws since you generally like his stuff, but humor me). How long do you think a finishing comeback should be in 1996 WWF? From what i saw in 96, the MAIN Shawn Michaels match story was one of cutoff comebacks. And USUALLY, the payoff would be that he'd come up with a distinctive comeback of a few moves before kipping up and starting towards the finish. I think it'd bug me a lot more if all of his matches went forearm > kip up > inverted atomic drop > bodyslam > top rope elbow > SCM. Usually they don't. There's usually at least a twist or two in there somewhere from what I've seen. The only one that sort of ended like that was the house show match. Does it make sense for him to kip up mid match and then have another 6 minutes of back and forth, or another cut off and a second kip up? I'm curious what you'd prefer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I think mid-90s Shawn had good punches. I don't know why he largely abandoned them in favor of chops after his comeback. Anyway, we've been over this before, but Shawn is pretty much in the same boat as Ricky Steamboat in terms of having relatively weak offense. It's true that Steamboat was presented as a skilled wrestler who could get a pinfall at any time. But Shawn had the Sweet Chin Music as his great equalizer. And Shawn was facing guys significantly larger than him more often than Steamboat, so being able to knock someone out was more important than being able to roll someone up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 isn't a lot of the offense issue being able to fill in the gaps and find things to do. In that regard, Steamboat had the opening match arm work and then the karate stuff for his come back. I can't see Arn Anderson going "NOOOO! NOT SHAWN MICHAELS!" but with Steamboat it was believable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Steamboat's arm work is one of the things I like least about him. It never led to anything and was little more than filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 We could probably break off a note just on what having "Good offense" means. Is it meaningful offense? Is it offense that looks believable? Is it varied offense? Is it innovative offense? Is it offense that the fans respond to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Filler has value in a wrestling match, especially if you are going to be booked to go long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 It's one thing to work holds if you're going 60. But five minutes of arm work in a 15 minute match is a bit much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregor Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'm curious (and I know you were sort of fishing for flaws since you generally like his stuff, but humor me). How long do you think a finishing comeback should be in 1996 WWF? From what i saw in 96, the MAIN Shawn Michaels match story was one of cutoff comebacks. And USUALLY, the payoff would be that he'd come up with a distinctive comeback of a few moves before kipping up and starting towards the finish. I think it'd bug me a lot more if all of his matches went forearm > kip up > inverted atomic drop > bodyslam > top rope elbow > SCM. Usually they don't. There's usually at least a twist or two in there somewhere from what I've seen. The only one that sort of ended like that was the house show match. Does it make sense for him to kip up mid match and then have another 6 minutes of back and forth, or another cut off and a second kip up? I'm curious what you'd prefer. I like Michaels in spite of his flaws; I don't feel like I'm blind to them. That said, I don't think that I've expressed myself that well. I've said that lazy comebacks are fine as long as they're earned, and I've also said that his comebacks are his worst trait. I guess what I was going for is that he has too many matches in which it feels like it's just too easy. The Goldust match that you mentioned - he works hard to come back, but he finishes Goldust off too easily. I think that the Bulldog match from KOTR was like that, too. The two Vader house show matches online have Michaels doing the standard finish, and it's not convincing at all against Vader. I don't know if you still plan to watch the Billy Gunn match, but that's a fifteen-minute match with the standard finish and not much of a comeback leading up to it (I watched it again out of curiosity, though, and it wasn't as bad as I'd remembered). The Owen Hart match from RAW is similar, but it's shorter. The only twist to the finishing routine is when he dropkicks Vader off the apron, but Owen doesn't get another shot in. The 1-2-3 Kid RAW match has Michaels just duck a clothesline and then take over. Some of the matches are entertaining enough beforehand for me to still say that I enjoyed them. I guess what I'd prefer most is for his matches to not as often feel like he steamrolled the other guy. Sometimes it's as simple as not always going for the kick immediately after the elbow. Maybe someone could duck the kick and get a rollup or go on offense for a few moves. Of the matches you've reviewed, there have been two like that - the Jannetty one and the HHH one. The Kid one is sort of like that. The Leif, Owen, and Goldust RAW matches had outside interference putting a very, very brief halt to the comeback. I just feel like there could be more drama there, and I wouldn't mind as much if they instead invested all the drama into Michaels simply regaining control (that was the main thing that I liked about the Bulldog MSG match, although that one has nearfalls, too). Not every match has to seem close. He can steamroll some guys. It just seemed like it happened too often or in matches that had already had too much put into them (like, it shouldn't happen at the end of a fifteen-minute match). And I know he has other problems, too; this is just my biggest complaint about face Michaels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Steamboat's arm work is one of the things I like least about him. It never led to anything and was little more than filler.It made sense if he was going for the Double-Chickenwing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Steamboat's arm work is one of the things I like least about him. It never led to anything and was little more than filler.It made sense if he was going for the Double-Chickenwing. Not if he abandons it once they start to pick up the pace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 He always had the Arm Drag! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Shawn busting out a sitdown powerbomb and a freaking Northern lights suplex in the Iron Man was so strange because I don't think he ever did those moves before or after the match. I guess he wanted to work some new spots in to avoid repetition but it's surreal looking back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I won't argue where Shawn should be on a top 100, but looking at some of the names people have rated above him. It just seems to be grab a wrestler with a good reputation and puting them on the list above him. With no thought giving over to why they better. I haven't done a full list, (If i've missed any good single matches, please add) as i left out most of his WWF tag matches and his AWA run, but i've put all his good to to great matches in his WWF/WWE run. When rating wrestlers on work rate, i guess the best way to rate them is on the matches that you watched or seen live. It would be interesting to see match listing for the following wrestlers, as i just don't see how they can rate above shawn on the matches available for them. Sting Pillman Savage Steven Regal Andre DiBiase Hennig Terry Gordy Tito Santana Greg Valentine Shawn Matches 1988 Survivor Series 1988 November 24 The Powers of Pain, The Rockers, The British Bulldogs, The Hart Foundation, and Jim Powers & Paul Roma VS Demolition Ax & Smash, Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard, Nikolai Volkoff & Boris Zhukov, Raymond & Jacques Rougeau, and The Conquistadors Saturday Night's Main Event October 31, 1989 The Rockers VS Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard in three falls. Survivor Series 1989 November 23 Ultimate Warrior, Jim Neidhart, & The Rockers VS Bobby Heenan, Andre the Giant, Haku, & Arn Anderson 1989 Saturday Night's Main Event February 16, 1989 Anderson & Tully Blanchard VS The Rockers WrestleMania V April 2, 1989 Akeem & Big Boss Man VS The Rockers SummerSlam 1989 Rick Martel, Jacques & Raymond Rougeau VS The Rockers & Tito Santana 11/25/89 Rockers vs. Hart Foundation 1990 April 23, 1990 The Hart Foundation VS The Rockers 4/28/90 Hart Foundation vs. Rockers Survivor Series 1990 November 22 Rick Martel, Warlord, Hercules, & Paul Roma VS Jake Roberts, Jimmy Snuka, & The Rockers 1991 The Rockers VS The Orient Express Royal Rumble 1991 3/17/91 Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. Perfect 4/?/91 Shawn Michaels vs. Kato Wrestlemania VII The Rockers VS The Barbarian & Haku Survivor Series 1991 November 28 The Nasty Boys & The Beverly Brothers VS The Rockers & The Bushwhackers 1992 WrestleMania VIII April 5, 1992 Shawn Michaels pinned Tito Santana April, 19, 1992 WWF World Champ Randy Savage pinned Shawn Michaels October 27, 1992 Shawn Michaels pinned Davey Smith Survivor Series 1992 November 25 WWF World Champ Bret Hart VS Shawn Michaels 1993 WWF I-C Champ Shawn Michaels VS Marty Jannetty Royal Rumble 1993 WrestleMania IX Tatanka beat Shawn Michaels King of the Ring 1993 June 13 WWF I-C Champ Shawn Michaels pinned Crush 7/19/93 Shawn Michaels vs Marty Jannetty 1994 WrestleMania X March 20, 1994 WWF I-C Champ Razor Ramon beat Shawn Michaels 8/1/94 Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon 10/30/94 Shawn Michaels/Diesel vs. Razor Ramon/123 Kid Survivor Series 1994 November 23 Razor Ramon, The 1-2-3 Kid, Davey Smith, Headshrinkers Fatu & Sionne Vs Shawn Michaels, Diesel, Owen Hart, Jim Niedhart, & Jeff Jarrett 1995 Royal Rumble 1995 WrestleMania XI April 2, 1995 WWF World Champ Diesel VS Shawn Michaels 3/6/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Davey Boy Smith King of the Ring 1995 June 25 Shawn Michaels VS Kama In Your House July 23, 1995 Shawn Michaels VS Jeff Jarrett SummerSlam 1995 August 27 WWF I-C Champ Shawn Michaels VS Razor Ramon In Your House #3 1995 September 24 Diesel & Shawn Michaels VS Yokozuna & Davey Smith 11/20/95 Shawn Michaels vs. Owen Hart Survivor Series 1995 November 19 Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson, Davey Smith, & Psycho Sid VS Yokozuna, Owen Hart, Razor Ramon, & Dean Douglas 1996 Royal Rumble 1996 Shawn Michaels vs Sycho Sid In Your House #6 February 18, 1996 Shawn Michaels VS Owen Hart 3/4/96 Shawn Michaels vs. 123 Kid WrestleMania XII March 31, 1996 Shawn Michaels VS Bret Hart Good Friends, Better Enemies April 28 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Diesel Beware of Dog May 26, 1996 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Davey Smith 6/24/96 Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty King of the Ring 1996 June 23 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Davey Smith International Incident July 21, 1996 Vader, Owen Hart, & Davey Smith VS Shawn Michaels, Ahmed Johnson & Sycho Sid SummerSlam 1996 August 18 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Vader August 24, 1996 in Toronto, ON WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Goldust in a "ladder" match Mind Games September 22, 1996 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS Mankind Survivor Series 1996 November 17 Sycho Sid VS Shawn Michaels 1997 05/26/97 Shawn Michaels/Steve Austin vs. Davey Boy Smith/Owen Hart 6/2/97 Shawn Michaels/Steve Austin vs. Legion of Doom King of the Ring 1997 June 8 Shawn Michaels VS Steve Austin 8/11/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Mankind Ground Zero September 7, 1997 Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker One Night Only September 27, 1997 Shawn Michaels TKO Davey Smith Badd Blood 1997 October 5 Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker hell in a cell 10/20/97 Shawn Michaels vs. Owen Hart Survivor Series 1997 November 9 Shawn Michaels VS Bret Hart D-Generation X December 7, 1997 Ken Shamrock VS WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels 12/29/97 Shawn Michaels vs Owen Hart 1998 Royal Rumble 1998 January 18 WWF World Champ Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker in a casket WrestleMania XIV March 29, 1998 Steve Austin VS Shawn Michaels 2002 SummerSlam 2002 August 25 Shawn Michaels VS Triple H in a "non-sanctioned" match. Survivor Series 2002 November 17 elimination chamber match 2003 WrestleMania XIX March 30, 2003 Shawn Michaels VS Chris Jericho Bad Blood 2003 June 15 Ric Flair VS Shawn Michaels 7/21/03 Chris Jericho vs. Shawn Michaels SummerSlam 2003 August 24 elimination chamber Unforgiven 2003 September 21 Randy Orton VS Shawn Michaels Armageddon 2003 December 14 Shawn Michaels VS Batista Survivor Series 2003 November 16 Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, Christian, Scott Steiner, & Mark Henry VS Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, Booker T, Bubba & D-Von Dudley 12/29/03 Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels 2004 Royal Rumble 2004 World Champ Triple H VS Shawn Michaels last man standing" match 2/16/04 Chris Benoit vs. Shawn Michaels WrestleMania XX March 14, 2004 Chris Benoit vs Triple H VS Shawn Michaels triple threat 3/29/04 Shawn Michaels/Chris Benoit vs. Batista/Ric Flair 4/12/04 Triple H/Randy Orton/Batista/Ric Flair vs. Shelton Benjamin/Chris Benoit/Mick Foley/Shawn Michaels Backlash 2004 April 18 World Champ Chris Benoit VS Shawn Michaels VS Triple H triple threat 5/3/04 Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit Bad Blood 2004 June 13 Triple H VS Shawn Michaels hell in a cell match. Unforgiven 2004 September 12 Shawn Michaels VS Kane Taboo Tuesday 2004 October 19 World Champ Triple H VS Shawn Michaels 2005 1/24/05 Chris Benoit/Chris Jericho/Shawn Michaels vs. Tyson Tomko/Christian/Edge Royal Rumble 2005 Edge VS Shawn Michaels 2/21/05 Edge/Christian vs. Randy Orton/Shawn Michaels 2/28/05 Edge vs. Shawn Michaels Street Fight WrestleMania 21 April 3, 2005 Kurt Angle VS Shawn Michaels Backlash 2005 May 1 Hulk Hogan & Shawn Michaels VS Muhammad Hassan & Khosrow Daivari 5/2/05 Shelton Benjamin vs. Shawn Michaels 5/9/05 Edge vs. Shawn Michaels Vengeance 2005 june 26 Shawn Michaels VS Kurt Angle SummerSlam 2005 August 21 Hulk Hogan VS Shawn Michaels Unforgiven 2005 September 18 Shawn Michaels VS Chris Masters 10/3/05 Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle 30 Minute Iron Man Raw Taboo Tuesday 2005 November 1 WWE Champ John Cena VS Shawn Michaels VS Kurt Angle triple threat Rey Mysterio Vs. Shawn Michaels 14/11/2005 Survivor Series 2005 November 27 John Bradhsaw Layfield, Rey Mysterio, Batista, Randy Orton, & Bobby Lashley VS Shawn Michaels, Carlito, The Big Show, Kane & Chris Masters 2006 New Year's Revolution 2006 January 8 WWE elimination chamber match 1/16/06 Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels March 18, 2006 Shane McMahon VS Shawn Michaels street fight WrestleMania 22 April 2, 2006 Shawn Michaels VS Vince McMahon Backlash 2006 April 30 Vince & Shane McMahon VS Shawn Michaels & "God" Vengeance 2006 June 25 Triple H & Shawn Michaels VS The Spirit Squad (Kenny, Johnny, Nicky, Mikey, & Mitch) 5/8/06 Nicky/Johnny/Kenny/Mikey/Mitch vs. Shawn Michaels/John Cena SummerSlam 2006 August 20 Shawn Michaels & Triple H VS Vince & Shane McMahon Unforgiven 2006 September 17 Shawn Michaels & Triple H beat The Big Show, Vince & Shane McMahon handicap hell in a cell Cyber Sunday 2006 November 5 Randy Orton & Edge VS Triple H & Shawn Michaels Survivor Series 2006 November 26 Triple H, Shawn Michaels, CM Punk, Matt & Jeff Hardy VS Randy Orton, Edge, Mike Knox, Gregory Helms, & Johnny Nitro 12/4/06 Matt Hardy/Jeff Hardy/Shawn Michaels/Triple H vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Joey Mercury/Johnny Nitro 12/11/06 Ric Flair/Triple H/Shawn Michaels vs. Randy Orton/Edge/Kenny 2007 New Year's Revolution 2007 January 7 Shawn Michaels & Triple H VS Randy Orton & Edge 1/22/07 Shawn Michaels vs Edge Royal Rumble 2007 2/16/07 John Cena/Shawn Michaels vs. MVP/Mr. Kennedy No Way Out 2007 February 18, 2007 John Cena & Shawn Michaels VS The Undertaker & Batista WrestleMania 23 April 1, 2007 WWE Champ John Cena VS Shawn Michaels 4/23/2007 John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels Backlash 2007 April 29 WWE Champ John Cena, Shawn Michaels, Randy Orton, & Edge in a fatal four way Cyber Sunday 2007 October 28 Shawn Michaels VS Randy Orton Survivor Series 2007 November 17 WWE Champ Randy Orton VS Shawn Michaels Armageddon 2007 December 16 Shawn Michaels VS Mr. Kennedy 12/31/07 Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. Kennedy 2008 1/21/08 Shawn Michaels vs. Mr. Kennedy Royal Rumble 2008 2/11/08 Jeff Hardy vs Shawn Michaels No Way Out 2008 February 17 elimination chamber WrestleMania XXIV March 30, 2008 Shawn Michaels VS Ric Flair Backlash 2008 April 27 Shawn Michaels VS Batista Judgment Day 2008 May 18 Shawn Michaels VS Chris Jericho 5/26/08 Chris Jericho vs Shawn Michaels One Night Stand 2008 June 1 Batista VS Shawn Michaels stretcher match Great American Bash 2008 July 20 Chris Jericho VS Shawn Michaels SummerSlam 2008 August 17 Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho interview. This segment included Jericho punching Michaels' wife. Unforgiven 2008 September 7 Shawn Michaels VS Chris Jericho unsanctioned match. No Mercy 2008 October 5 World Champ Chris Jericho VS Shawn Michaels ladder match Survivor Series 2008 23 November Shawn Michaels, Rey Mysterio, The Great Khali, & Cryme Tye beat John Bradshaw Layfield, The Miz, John Morrison, MVP, & Kane (18:13) in an "elimination" match. Michaels, Mysterio, & Khali were the survivors. 2009 WrestleMania XXV April 5, 2009 The Undertaker VS Shawn Michaels Bragging Rights 2009 October 25 Chris Jericho, Kane, Matt Hardy, R-Truth, Fit Finlay, David Hart Smith, & Tyson Kidd VS Triple H, Shawn Michaels, The Big Show, Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, Cody Rhodes, & Jack Swagger SummerSlam 2009 August 23 Shawn Michaels & Triple H VS Ted DiBiase, Jr. & Cody Rhodes Breaking Point September 13, 2009 Ted DiBiase, Jr. & Cody Rhodes VS Triple H & Shawn Michaels Hell in a Cell 2009 October 4 Shawn Michaels & Triple H VS Ted DiBiase, Jr. & Cody Rhodes 10/25/09 Chris Jericho/Kane/Tyson Kidd/David Hart Smith/Finlay/Matt Hardy/R-Truth vs. Triple H/Shawn Michaels/Big Show/Kofi Kingston/Jack Swagger/Mark Henry/Cody Rhodes Survivor Series 2009 November 22 WWE Champ John Cena VS Triple H VS Shawn Michaels Tables, Ladders, & Chairs 2009 December 13 Triple H & Shawn Michaels VS Chris Jericho & The Big Show 2010 1/29/10 Rey Mysterio vs Shawn Michaels WrestleMania XXVI March 28, 2010 The Undertaker VS Shawn Michaels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 This is tangential but I don't know if I'd sign off on "best way to rank wrestlers is by the quality of their matches." I think it's perfectly possible for 2 average wrestler to have a really good to great match if it's laid out well for them, they have some interesting spots worked out, a good story and a hot crowd. Neither would have to do anything particularly impressive -- just follow the 'recipe' more or less, hit the stuff they're supposed to hit well enough, etc. If I'm trying to think about who's the "better" wrestler I won't be thinking who had the best match, who had more good matches, etc etc. I'd be more concerned about how they perform -- if applicable -- in less "structured" matches where it's highly unlikely most things were planned out in advance: brawls, mat wrestling segments, etc. I'd look at things like how they sell: is the performance believable, do they incorporate the injury/selling in a novel and interesting way somehow, etc. I'd look at how often they add interesting, creative touches of whatever in their matches as guys like Finlay or Regal or Henry often do. At this point when thinking about how good a worker is I'm much less interested in how good their matches were; I've seen plenty of well constructed matches wherein two guys are giving more or less standard performances. Match quality and performance quality need to be divorced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't even think a lot of those matches are good, let alone good Shawn performances. Funny enough my favorite work of his is totally excluded from that list (Rose/Somers AWA feud). I honestly I have no problem trotting out a match list for anyone of those names, but I don't think running down a list of matches is any more compelling than running down a list of people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Fuck it, it will be fun. DO IT!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 Someone pick five for me to do and I will do five. The catch is Will has to do five also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 You can take... Sting Andre Greg Valentine Tito Santana Hennig I'll take... Regal Pillman Gordy Savage Dibiase Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 This is tangential but I don't know if I'd sign off on "best way to rank wrestlers is by the quality of their matches." Tim is a wise man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't know how those Kennedy matches are suppose to be thought of as good. That Shawn vs Kane match was awful Most of it being on Shawn's head because he insisted on having Kane sell for those weak ass chops. It just looks like someone decided to list Shawn PPV matches and hoped nobody looked too close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think those are all of the Shawn PPV matches. Those aren't listed as great matches just as a list of matches Shawn had on PPV with some notable TV matches thrown in. So, the first point of order would be to take that list and eliminate the matches that aren't actually good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't know how those Kennedy matches are suppose to be thought of as good. That Shawn vs Kane match was awful Most of it being on Shawn's head because he insisted on having Kane sell for those weak ass chops. It just looks like someone decided to list Shawn PPV matches and hoped nobody looked too close. The kane match is only really on here as an example of a good Kane match, not a great classic match. As Kane is notorious for being in bad matches for most of his career. I thought it would highlight Shawn's ability, to carry someone of limited ability to a watchable contest. I don't think there anything wrong with the Kennedy match's, but i do concede if they were took of the list, they wouldn't be missed. I didn't list all his ppv match's, only the match's that are good, or have a point to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The kane match is only really on here as an example of a good Kane match, not a great classic match. As Kane is notorious for being in bad matches for most of his career. I can name twenty Kane matches better than that. That Shawn match was one of his worst ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted July 13, 2012 Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 The kane match is only really on here as an example of a good Kane match, not a great classic match. As Kane is notorious for being in bad matches for most of his career. I can name twenty Kane matches better than that. That Shawn match was one of his worst ever. Please do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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