Would Shawn Michaels Make Your Personal Top 100?

[Matt D]

He will too.

[Mad Dog]

Sting

Pick any match vs. Vader. There better than Michaels.

[ragemaster]

Sting

Pick any match vs. Vader. There better than Michaels.

 

I love the Sing/Vader feud, but better than Michaels best against Foley, Taker, Benoit (wrestlemania) the Summerslam ladder match, i just don't see it. Also my point is, ok sting has had some great matches. But he need's a great wrestler to bring the best out of him, he's not a great wrestler who brings the best out of others. Also how many classic matches has sing had, you got Vader but who else. The Flair match's are average at best, um im drawing a blank here, the tag againt the Steiners?

[Mad Dog]

That's not true at all. Look at the Meng match for the U.S. Title. That is just short of being a great match and is probably the best singles match in Meng's career. Sting made that match with how he approached it.

 

Going back to the Vader matches. Vader is a great worker but those Sting matches are some of the best work in his career. I also bring those up because the internal logic of those matches are more sound and Sting is better at playing the outgunned babyface against the unstoppable monster. It's a better version of the formula Michaels uses because Sting has a better offense, uses a more logical babyface comeback and isn't afraid to get his ass beaten into the ground and then lose the match.

[Dylan Waco]

Sting

Pick any match vs. Vader. There better than Michaels.

 

I love the Sing/Vader feud, but better than Michaels best against Foley, Taker, Benoit (wrestlemania) the Summerslam ladder match, i just don't see it. Also my point is, ok sting has had some great matches. But he need's a great wrestler to bring the best out of him, he's not a great wrestler who brings the best out of others. Also how many classic matches has sing had, you got Vader but who else. The Flair match's are average at best, um im drawing a blank here, the tag againt the Steiners?

 

I am not not crazy high on Sting, though I do think he was a good worker. Still if you are going to include a lot of those Shawn matches it is hard to see any legit argument for eliminating something like Sting v. Flair from the first Clash.

 

I think the best three or four Sting v. Vader matches compare very favorably to those matches.

 

Sting had good matches v. Foley, Regal, DDP, Luger, Rick Steiner, Rick Rude, Meng and others. I would generally agree that his list of memorable quality matches is shorter than Shawn's, but there are probably more Shawn matches I've seen where I thought he was outright bad than Sting matches where I thought he was outright bad.

 

I don't think Sting is easily better than Shawn though. In fact I might very well rate Shawn over Sting. But I don't think he's light years better than Sting

[Mad Dog]

I think one thing that gets understated with Sting is 1997. How many guys could've pulled off appearing minimally, not speak and get over as huge as he did? That wasn't an easy role to pull off. I've posted the link here before but Sting hitting the ring and just destroying everything in sight at Uncensored 97 had the fans absolutely losing their shit. I think a lot of guys would've failed doing that.

[Loss]

Didn't 9-1-1 basically do the same thing? Get over with one move and doing no promos?

[ragemaster]

That's not true at all. Look at the Meng match for the U.S. Title. That is just short of being a great match and is probably the best singles match in Meng's career. Sting made that match with how he approached it.

 

Going back to the Vader matches. Vader is a great worker but those Sting matches are some of the best work in his career. I also bring those up because the internal logic of those matches are more sound and Sting is better at playing the outgunned babyface against the unstoppable monster. It's a better version of the formula Michaels uses because Sting has a better offense, uses a more logical babyface comeback and isn't afraid to get his ass beaten into the ground and then lose the match.

 

Yes the vader/Sting matches are great, and the Meng match is fun to good at best. I'm not saying Sting hasn't been in a lot of enjoyable matches. But when talking about the top 100, you need to have a lot higher output of classic matches. I just don't think in my option that Sting's best is as good as Michaels best, add to that Michaels just has a higher level of good matches than sting.

[Mad Dog]

Similar but I think he was more in the vein of Three Minute Warning.

 

Ring of Honor tried it with some guy in their first year of the promotion and it failed miserably. I think they called him Slugger or something lame like that.

[Victator]

The kane match is only really on here as an example of a good Kane match, not a great classic match. As Kane is notorious

for being in bad matches for most of his career.

I can name twenty Kane matches better than that. That Shawn match was one of his worst ever.

 

Please do

 

vs Vader No Way Out 98

 

vs Steve Austin night after King of the Ring 98

 

vs Big Show Fully Loaded 99

 

with X-Pac vs Undertaker and Big Show

 

with Undertaker vs Big Show and Chris Jericho Smackdown before Survivor Series 2009

 

vs Undertaker Night of Champions 2001

 

vs CM Punk Smackdown last month

 

with Big Show vs Viscera and Val Venis some Raw in early 06

 

vs Kurt Angle Smackdown episode in late 2001

 

vs Fit Finlay September 14 2007 Smackdown

 

vs Mankind Survivor Series 97

 

vs Mankind January 11 1999 Raw

 

vs Albert Smackdown in 2001 This is the first match they had that Kane won.

 

vs Umaga 10/9/06

 

vs Chavo Guerrero Backlash 2008

 

I can post the last five later if you want. Took a little longer since I wanted to check matches I had not seen in awhile. I also wanted to keep it to actual good matches, not just better than the Shawn match.

[ragemaster]

 

 

 

I am not not crazy high on Sting, though I do think he was a good worker. Still if you are going to include a lot of those Shawn matches it is hard to see any legit argument for eliminating something like Sting v. Flair from the first Clash.

 

 

There's no reason not to list it if you are listing all his match's, but by itself it doesn't add to his case. That's why i asked for a list of his work, so you can get an overview of his career and see if he is really better or not.

[Victator]

Didn't 9-1-1 basically do the same thing? Get over with one move and doing no promos?

It would not worked in the context Sting did. The nWo angle would not have worked nearly as well without Sting. You needed a WCW true believer to counteract the nWo and act as a victim.

 

I don't think Savage, Luger or the Steiners could have worked in that role like Sting did and I don't think people would of been as anxious for them to get revenge. He deserve a lot of credit for that entire year. Just based on the goodwill he generated over the years.

[ragemaster]

The kane match is only really on here as an example of a good Kane match, not a great classic match. As Kane is notorious

for being in bad matches for most of his career.

I can name twenty Kane matches better than that. That Shawn match was one of his worst ever.

 

Please do

 

vs Vader No Way Out 98

 

vs Steve Austin night after King of the Ring 98

 

vs Big Show Fully Loaded 99

 

with X-Pac vs Undertaker and Big Show

 

with Undertaker vs Big Show and Chris Jericho Smackdown before Survivor Series 2009

 

vs Undertaker Night of Champions 2001

 

vs CM Punk Smackdown last month

 

with Big Show vs Viscera and Val Venis some Raw in early 06

 

vs Kurt Angle Smackdown episode in late 2001

 

vs Fit Finlay September 14 2007 Smackdown

 

vs Mankind Survivor Series 97

 

vs Mankind January 11 1999 Raw

 

vs Albert Smackdown in 2001 This is the first match they had that Kane won.

 

vs Umaga 10/9/06

 

vs Chavo Guerrero Backlash 2008

 

I can post the last five later if you want. Took a little longer since I wanted to check matches I had not seen in awhile. I also wanted to keep it to actual good matches, not just better than the Shawn match.

 

So i guess you can't give me a list with 20 better match's then

 

 

vs Vader, no it sucked ass

vs Steve Austin night after King of the Ring 98, yep a good match

vS Big show, You smoking something funny

with X-Pac vs Undertaker and Big Show, Can you give me a date or show so i can check it out

Undertaker Night of Champions 2001, i guess you mean 2010 and no it was not a good match

vs CM Punk Smackdown last month, i've stopped watching smackdown so i will have to check it out.

with Big Show vs Viscera and Val Venis some Raw in early 06, Ok now i know your messing with me.

vs Kurt Angle Smackdown episode in late 2001, vaguely remembering it being good.

vs Fit Finlay September 14 2007 Smackdown, good but not better

vs Mankind Survivor Series 97, still not better

vs Mankind January 11 1999 Raw, ok not good

vs Albert Smackdown in 2001 This is the first match they had that Kane won, Good match from memory will need to re watch.

vs Umaga 10/9/06, Nope average

vs Chavo Guerrero Backlash 2008, Not impressed

 

 

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

 

I am not not crazy high on Sting, though I do think he was a good worker. Still if you are going to include a lot of those Shawn matches it is hard to see any legit argument for eliminating something like Sting v. Flair from the first Clash.

 

 

There's no reason not to list it if you are listing all his match's, but by itself it doesn't add to his case. That's why i asked for a list of his work, so you can get an overview of his career and see if he is really better or not.

 

Sting isn't a guy I would push for over Michaels. If someone asked me right now who I would rate over the other I would say Michaels.

 

I also think volume of good matches is really a TERRIBLE way to push "Michaels is an all time great" narrative, because for a guy with that rep he has FAR fewer quality matches than almost anyone else who is genuinely put in that category.

[Matt D]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

I'm disregarding your opinion completely for just tossing away the backlash 08 match like that. It's great. That you come off like a rude jerk for no reason doesn't help. Seriously read through this note from start to bottom and really take a look at why people are saying what they're saying. It could just be that you look at wrestling differently than a lot of us do. But you're just listing off matches or dismissing them with a few words.

 

I also think volume of good matches is really a TERRIBLE way to push "Michaels is an all time great" narrative, because for a guy with that rep he has FAR fewer quality matches than almost anyone else who is genuinely put in that category.

Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?"

[ragemaster]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

I'm disregarding your opinion completely for just tossing away the backlash 08 match like that. It's great. That you come off like a rude jerk for no reason doesn't help. Seriously read through this note from start to bottom and really take a look at why people are saying what they're saying. It could just be that you look at wrestling differently than a lot of us do. But you're just listing off matches or dismissing them with a few words.

 

I also think volume of good matches is really a TERRIBLE way to push "Michaels is an all time great" narrative, because for a guy with that rep he has FAR fewer quality matches than almost anyone else who is genuinely put in that category.

Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?"

 

 

Um as 'Dr. Reverend Victator' didn't put any reasons why theses matches were better than the the Shawn match. I didn't feel i had to go in-depth on why i disagreed with his choices, and i choose to answer in joke form. Reading back over, the last line does come across a bit jerky, but then i did put a smiley face to show humour.

[Victator]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

Well lets get a few things straight dummy.

 

The SHAWN MATCH IS FUCKING AWFUL.

 

Okay see I could of found some legit shitty Kane matches and shoved them in there. The Shane Mcmahon matches were better than that shitty ass Shawn Micheals match.

 

But lets do this.

 

vs Vader, no it sucked ass

WRONG

 

The match told a good story with good selling from both men. Oh and Vader's shit looks like it hurts.

 

vS Big show, You smoking something funny

No dummy, I actually watch matches instead of waiting for Scott Keith star ratings.

 

Kane put in a great performance playing Spike Dudley for Big Show. They actually tell a good story about Kane being overpowered and out monstered for the first time. Also they actually look like they are hurting each other. As opposed to a balding, gimpy pretty boy throwing awful looking chops for twenty minutes as Kane tries to sell it.

 

Shit I don't like a single other Kane vs Show match. They usually have terrible chemistry working against each other. But this match is damn good. But then again I watched it.

 

with X-Pac vs Undertaker and Big Show, Can you give me a date or show so i can check it out

Summerslam 1999

 

with Big Show vs Viscera and Val Venis some Raw in early 06, Ok now i know your messing with me.

Or maybe I actually watched the match. Which is a very good short TV match with Viscera hitting some nice power spots on Kane and then bumping big for the chokeslam. Of course I actually watched the match.

 

vs Fit Finlay September 14 2007 Smackdown, good but not better

Its a million times better since the offense looks good and Kane selling for Finlay does not look ridiculous.

 

vs Mankind Survivor Series 97, still not better

Far better since Mankind makes Kane look like an actual monster, while getting himself over. As opposed to forcing a monster to sell for shitty limp wristed chops.

 

vs Umaga 10/9/06, Nope average

vs Chavo Guerrero Backlash 2008, Not impressed

Which makes both matches far better than the Shawn match, which is awful. One of the worst matches either Kane or Shawn have ever had.

 

As for the remaining five.

 

Kane vs Chris Jericho Survivor Series 2000

 

Kane vs Edge from November 98

 

Kane vs Triple H Judgment Day 02

 

Kane vs Rhyno from April 01

 

Kane vs Rob Van Dam Summerslam 03

 

I could not finish before since my nephews were leaving.

[Victator]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

I'm disregarding your opinion completely for just tossing away the backlash 08 match like that. It's great. That you come off like a rude jerk for no reason doesn't help. Seriously read through this note from start to bottom and really take a look at why people are saying what they're saying. It could just be that you look at wrestling differently than a lot of us do. But you're just listing off matches or dismissing them with a few words.

 

I also think volume of good matches is really a TERRIBLE way to push "Michaels is an all time great" narrative, because for a guy with that rep he has FAR fewer quality matches than almost anyone else who is genuinely put in that category.

Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?"

 

 

Um as 'Dr. Reverend Victator' didn't put any reasons why theses matches were better than the the Shawn match. I didn't feel i had to go in-depth on why i disagreed with his choices, and i choose to answer in joke form. Reading back over, the last line does come across a bit jerky, but then i did put a smiley face to show humour.

 

You did not state a single thing that made the Shawn/Kane match good.

[ragemaster]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

Well lets get a few things straight dummy.

 

The SHAWN MATCH IS FUCKING AWFUL.

 

Okay see I could of found some legit shitty Kane matches and shoved them in there. The Shane Mcmahon matches were better than that shitty ass Shawn Micheals match.

 

But lets do this.

 

vs Vader, no it sucked ass

WRONG

 

The match told a good story with good selling from both men. Oh and Vader's shit looks like it hurts.

 

vS Big show, You smoking something funny

No dummy, I actually watch matches instead of waiting for Scott Keith star ratings.

 

Kane put in a great performance playing Spike Dudley for Big Show. They actually tell a good story about Kane being overpowered and out monstered for the first time. Also they actually look like they are hurting each other. As opposed to a balding, gimpy pretty boy throwing awful looking chops for twenty minutes as Kane tries to sell it.

 

Shit I don't like a single other Kane vs Show match. They usually have terrible chemistry working against each other. But this match is damn good. But then again I watched it.

 

with X-Pac vs Undertaker and Big Show, Can you give me a date or show so i can check it out

Summerslam 1999

 

with Big Show vs Viscera and Val Venis some Raw in early 06, Ok now i know your messing with me.

Or maybe I actually watched the match. Which is a very good short TV match with Viscera hitting some nice power spots on Kane and then bumping big for the chokeslam. Of course I actually watched the match.

 

vs Fit Finlay September 14 2007 Smackdown, good but not better

Its a million times better since the offense looks good and Kane selling for Finlay does not look ridiculous.

 

vs Mankind Survivor Series 97, still not better

Far better since Mankind makes Kane look like an actual monster, while getting himself over. As opposed to forcing a monster to sell for shitty limp wristed chops.

 

vs Umaga 10/9/06, Nope average

vs Chavo Guerrero Backlash 2008, Not impressed

Which makes both matches far better than the Shawn match, which is awful. One of the worst matches either Kane or Shawn have ever had.

 

As for the remaining five.

 

Kane vs Chris Jericho Survivor Series 2000

 

Kane vs Edge from November 98

 

Kane vs Triple H Judgment Day 02

 

Kane vs Rhyno from April 01

 

Kane vs Rob Van Dam Summerslam 03

 

I could not finish before since my nephews were leaving.

 

Ok lets calm things down here, in my other post i was going for humour, which seems to have been lost. What's with the name calling i didn't attack you, only your list. I can see why

 

"Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing. " upset you but it was meant in fun, tongue in cheek. Sorry if i caused offence that wasn't my intent.

[Victator]

I was about to go edit it out, sorry.

[Dylan Waco]

Please if you going to say something, think it though beforehand that list is embarrassing.

 

I'm disregarding your opinion completely for just tossing away the backlash 08 match like that. It's great. That you come off like a rude jerk for no reason doesn't help. Seriously read through this note from start to bottom and really take a look at why people are saying what they're saying. It could just be that you look at wrestling differently than a lot of us do. But you're just listing off matches or dismissing them with a few words.

 

I also think volume of good matches is really a TERRIBLE way to push "Michaels is an all time great" narrative, because for a guy with that rep he has FAR fewer quality matches than almost anyone else who is genuinely put in that category.

Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?"

 

 

I think Shawn has a strong number of super "memorable" matches in large part because he's been pushed and promoted as "the showstoppa!" and constantly put in the position to have those sort of matches.

 

But in terms of volume of quality he is well below a lot of people, including people with shorter careers.

[ragemaster]

I was about to go edit it out, sorry.

Ok lets move this back on track if you want to continue with the debate. Shake hands and all that?

[Victator]

Yeah sure

[Chess Knight]

Yes the vader/Sting matches are great, and the Meng match is fun to good at best. I'm not saying Sting hasn't been in a lot of enjoyable matches. But when talking about the top 100, you need to have a lot higher output of classic matches. I just don't think in my option that Sting's best is as good as Michaels best, add to that Michaels just has a higher level of good matches than sting.

That's just the thing, a lot of people here don't think Shawn's had many classic matches, and that the best Sting is better than the best Michaels. I don't think I agree with that; I'm a ridiculous Mind Games fan and would name it a classic and shove it ahead of any Sting match, but to me the best Sting match is the strap with Vader and I honestly don't think it' that far behind it. I still love the first HIAC and would probably rate it the #2 Michaels match, but I'd be iffy on deciding if it was better than the second best Sting/Vader or WarGames '92. I'd put the strap match over the HIAC easily, tbh. I haven't watched the Rockers/Rose & Somers stuff in a while so I'm kind of disqualifying that for now.

 

I'm probably going to post a list of guys and gals I'd rate above Shawn some time in this thread. Maybe. I'm a wrestling fan, we all say we'll do something and then never actually do it. Sting won't be there. Shit I'd definitely rate Michaels ahead of Sting, but to think otherwise....I don't see why it's an out there opinion.

 

 

------

 

Side-request: whoever's going to list matches to check for a guy, can someone do Eric Embry?

[ragemaster]

 

 

Wasn't one of the big arguments in this note that we SHOULD push Shawn with great matches, because if we break him down with things he does well and things he does poorly, it doesn't look nearly as good on paper as if you look at his "great matches?"

 

I think Shawn has a strong number of super "memorable" matches in large part because he's been pushed and promoted as "the showstoppa!" and constantly put in the position to have those sort of matches.

 

But in terms of volume of quality he is well below a lot of people, including people with shorter careers.

 

 

But that argument also go's to the guys and gals in japan, who also are put in a position to have great matches and it's not brought up as a negative against Misawa and co.

 

Volume of quality is an interesting point, as compared to Bret Hart and Vader his volume i would suggest, blows there's away.

 

he also kept up a higher level than most for over 26 years which must count in his favour.