Clean Finishes

[Grimmas]

I have heard so many times how a match was ruined or brought down, because the finish wasn't clean. Is it true the only good finish is a clean finish?

 

I tend to think there are many great finishes that aren't clean. Was the first Hell in the Cell really ruined by Kane running in? How about that Inoki-Hansen match ending in a count out after Hansen Lariated Inoki to death?

 

I'm just really tired of hearing about clean finishes being the only good finish. Am I wrong?

[Loss]

It's an overly simplistic viewpoint that was popularized by Scott Keith.

 

Different finishes can work in different settings. I think what's most important is that feuds end decisively with a winner and a loser. There are quite a few proven options for getting there. I don't think doing all clean finishes is wrong, but it's hardly the only way to skin the cat.

 

Obviously, there are times when a bad finish can hurt a match pretty badly. But there isn't really a blanket approach.

[Mad Dog]

I think clean finishes are good but they become counter-productive after awhile. You can only mix and match your roster so much before you burn through them all if guys are getting pinned or submitted every time. You need DQs, count outs and interference to keep faces strong without putting them over at times. And it can also help heels build more heat against them.

 

I think you run into problems when you're Ring of Honor though. You've catered to a fanbase that kind of doesn't understand how wrestling is supposed to work deep down. Then when you try to do the basic principals of booking, they get pissed off because... they don't understand how wrestling is supposed to work.

 

I can think of a lot of instances where bad finishes have hurt the product but that's almost universally because it was being overdone.

[anarchistxx]

You've catered to a fanbase that kind of doesn't understand how wrestling is supposed to work deep down.

How absurdly patronising.

 

Wrestling is 'supposed' to work as profitable entertainment. Whichever way that aim is achieved. ROH fans couldn't care less about wins and loses - they just want to see good matches. That is how wrestling 'works' for them. And there isn't anything wrong with that.

[Mad Dog]

It is when the company can't grow and can't make basic booking decisions because a certain part of their fanbase will freak out if there's a DQ, no contest or count out. It also doesn't help when you can't do those things, that will again piss off the fans, and then the same fans will get bored and walk away because you burn out all of your matches with your limited roster because again, you can't do those basic wrestling things or piss off your fanbase. RoH isn't profitable, never was profitable and is on it's death bed. There was a failure there, it was trying to change the basic principals of wrestling to cater to a very niche group of wrestling fans that only cared about snowflakes.

[NintendoLogic]

It's like anything else in wrestling. Clean finishes are the preferred way to go, except when they're not.

[FLIK]

Yeah i'm with anarchistxx on this

 

There's multiple things have led to ROH's decline over the years, having near universal clean finishes and training the audiance to exspect them isn't one of them.

 

That said, I do agree that done correctly, right time, right place a non clean finish can work just as well.

[anarchistxx]

It is when the company can't grow and can't make basic booking decisions because a certain part of their fanbase will freak out if there's a DQ, no contest or count out.

If you think that's why ROH has failed you are deluded. ROH has failed because of;

 

- top stars leaving

- a style that is popular only with a niche

- that niche being increasingly able to watch the product illegally for free more quickly and in better quality

- lack of good characters to complement the good workers

- poor business decisions

- poor production

- poor booking team/s for much of the last few years

 

Among many, many other reasons. Mainly it has probably failed because as a business model, creating a product that caters mainly to smarks and hardcores just isn't profitable in the long term, especially when you try to overreach. It's lasted about as long as ECW in its Heyman incarnation. When you lose your talent and fresh ideas and momentum it's hard to carry on.

 

They lost Samoa Joe, CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Low Ki, Homicide, James Gibson and others in the space of a couple of years. That's a whole lot of top level talent - that two of those workers are now the two most over wrestlers in the WWE is testament to how good they were. I and others simply lost interest when it was clear the replacements were nowhere near as entertaining.

 

As for the original post, I'd say that clean finishes certainly help a big match because they're definitive. Nothing worse than a match with a huge build ending in an anticlimactic DQ or no contest. It's also clear that there are other finishes which can help a feud or match. It really depends on the circumstance.

[jdw]

Add in:

 

* shitty revenue stream

* no national tv of note at it's peak

 

Which are key to your first bullet point:

 

- top stars leaving

 

If you ain't got money, folks will leave to where they can make more.

 

Granted, even if they had revenue and a national tv of note to help generate that revenue, if they built stars to the degree they could pay the top guys $150K a year... Uncle Vince's Kingdom would look to lift the guys that they thought were valuable enough to generate revenue.

 

To a degree, ROH was lucky that they weren't on national TV and didn't have decent revenue in for most of it's history. Joe and Danielson would have never lasted as long as they did in the "glory days" if the company had. Vince would have picked them off just to fuck with ROH.

 

John

[goc]

It is kind of admirable how they've kept going even after losing pretty much all their top stars. I know if WWE lost just John Cena, CM Punk & Randy Orton in a couple year span like RoH they would be in really bad shape too. And that's just losing the top 3, which is far less than RoH has lost.

[NintendoLogic]

When I saw the Smarkschoice WWF poll results, I was struck by how few of the top matches were decisive feud enders and how many had screwy finishes. The OP already mentioned THAT'S GOTTA BE KANE! In addition, HBK/Mankind from Mind Games had the Vader run-in for the DQ. Angle/Austin from Summerslam had Austin getting himself intentionally DQed. And of course, Austin never actually submitted in the submission match. That's not even getting into all the matches with ref bumps and run-ins. It seems that the WWE has kind of struggled in providing really satisfying blowoff matches.

[Johnny Sorrow]

As far as cheating, ref bumps, etc go...if it ends with a 1-2-3 then that's a "clean" finish to me generally.

 

The best example of a lousy finish for a big match that comes to mind for me is Flair/ Nikita at Starrcade 86. The Main Event of the show, even though one could argue that Warriors/ MXE was, and it ends in a double dq shmoz. It was a real let down, after an awesome show.