Renaming the Bruiser Brody Best Brawler Award

[King Solomon]

Please give me some specific matches that would make me change my mind.

 

Just watch his Japan stuff, stuff with Flair and Blackwell. I'll really have to get on the ball and watch my Brody best of to give you specifics.

[shoe]

Please give me some specific matches that would make me change my mind.

 

Just watch his Japan stuff, stuff with Flair and Blackwell. I'll really have to get on the ball and watch my Brody best of to give you specifics.

 

 

You do have your work cut out for you. I mean in last 4 years Will has watched probably all of what is on tape of Brody in Japan in the 80's. So you need to be specific. Not just blanket statement.

[King Solomon]

Please give me some specific matches that would make me change my mind.

 

Just watch his Japan stuff, stuff with Flair and Blackwell. I'll really have to get on the ball and watch my Brody best of to give you specifics.

 

 

You do have your work cut out for you. I mean in last 4 years Will has watched probably all of what is on tape of Brody in Japan in the 80's. So you need to be specific. Not just blanket statement.

 

 

I'm going to watch my 5 disc set. I have more Brody here in the States so I'll try to heck that out later

[Jingus]

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

Why? Serious question, not trolling. In most artistic or performance media, the viewpoints of those inside the business tend to be put on a pedestal above those of the average fan. The biggest awards show in the world is the Oscars, which is entirely voted upon by movie industry insiders. Why's wrestling different?

[goodhelmet]

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

Why? Serious question, not trolling. In most artistic or performance media, the viewpoints of those inside the business tend to be put on a pedestal above those of the average fan. The biggest awards show in the world is the Oscars, which is entirely voted upon by movie industry insiders. Why's wrestling different?

 

Because Bill Watts said Michael Hayes couldn't wrestle... he was wrong.

 

Because old wrestlers praise Dory Funk Jr.

 

Because the goal of wrestlers is different from the goals of viewers. Wrestlers are there to "fool the marks", draw, keep their opponents safe. The viewer's goal is to be entertained.

 

If a wrestler has the same opinion as mine, he may be right but he is still a wrestler, not a viewer.

[Loss]

Because wrestlers are professional liars who probably have an agenda behind just about anything they say. They are also likely to rate their peers based on how well they got along personally.

[Dylan Waco]

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

 

Sorry but I'll take a Wrestler's opinion over a fans a lot of the time. They worked in the industry and breathed it. Their opinion carries more weight than a bunch of guys overanalyzing and overthinking the room on message boards. In football we call that Monday morning Qaurterbacking. There is a reason Color announcers are mostly former athletes rather than Joe Blow from the Internet Message Boards. This Brody bashing seems way too over the top to be taken seriously. I can see people saying he's overrated and I can deal with pointing out the flaws but I mean by hearing some on this board, Brody was a good for nothing Jabroni that wasn't worth crap. It seems as tho some of the hard core fans try to be contrarian for contrarian's sake and then go and rewrite history.

 

 

If you don't like message boards or opinions you will read on them a good strategy is to not read them or post on them. A poor strategy is to argue that people talking on message boards are dumb assholes who know nothing about wrestling - while posting on a wrestling message board.

 

I've watched the matches - Brody sucks. I want to like him, but it's really hard to like a guy who is so transparently poor. If this was pure revisionism there wouldn't be such a vast consensus on Brody sucking among people who have actually rewatched the matches recently, particularly among those of us who have radically different ideas about what does and doesn't make a good match.

 

I don' think wrestler's opinions are irrelevant in the sense that I find them interesting. But I will NEVER say "boy I thought that match sucked cock, but Ric Flair said it was great so it must be true."

[Chess Knight]

I don't understand why other wrestlers' opinions are even brought up in this way of thinking. Bret Hart said the Dynamite Kid is the greatest of all time and that Ric Flair wasn't that good. Why on Earth would I change my opinion based on that? I watched 90s WWF Flair and thought he still looked really great. I watched 80s NJ Dynamite Kid and wanted to turn it off. I'm not going to think during it 'well Bret Hart loves this, so......' And I won't reconsider placing Flair in a top 5 all time because Bret has problems with his formula.

 

Hell, some of the things a wrestler looks for in another wrestler is a bit of the opposite that a fan can look for. I recall Bret complaining that Flair's chops hurt too much. I, as a fan, would actually want him to work stiffer. If I was a wrestler I'd want my opponent to work stiffer as well. Some wrestlers that aren't Bret Hart also would.

 

Then there's complete BS like Bret Hart saying 'Mexican wrestlers fly around but aren't really tough'. The bloodiest brawls I've seen in wrestling happened in Mexico.

 

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

Sorry but I'll take a Wrestler's opinion over a fans a lot of the time. They worked in the industry and breathed it. Their opinion carries more weight than a bunch of guys overanalyzing and overthinking the room on message boards.

 

Can I ask what this means? I've read it from so many people so many time and it's always been really annoying. I've never understood what people meant by it. What are people overanalysing?

 

The 'contrarian' point is just as annoying but I at least know what that means.

[Dylan Waco]

"overanalyzing and overthinking" generally means "someone disagrees with my point of view and will defend their position with examples."

[goodhelmet]

I am not going to delete all of these threads or move them but my goal was to goad Dylan into naming 100 other brawlers who are better than Brody and then seeing if I could agree or disagree with him. Take the Brody arguments to the Brody thread. This is about the 100 wrestlers better at brawling than Brody. I'll make some comments about my picks and some of Dylan's later.

[Dylan Waco]

I am not going to delete all of these threads or move them but my goal was to goad Dylan into naming 100 other brawlers who are better than Brody and then seeing if I could agree or disagree with him. Take the Brody arguments to the Brody thread. This is about the 100 wrestlers better at brawling than Brody. I'll make some comments about my picks and some of Dylan's later.

 

I could keep going if you want.

[NintendoLogic]

To me, the ur-example of wrestlers having loopy opinions is Terry Funk saying that Masato Tanaka was better than the All Japan boys. Who you gonna believe, the Funker or your lying eyes?

[Dylan Waco]

Masato Tanaka

Another guy who was a better brawler than Brody at least.

[goodhelmet]

To me, the ur-example of wrestlers having loopy opinions is Terry Funk saying that Masato Tanaka was better than the All Japan boys. Who you gonna believe, the Funker or your lying eyes?

Exactly! But the real question is... are the 100 wrestlers listed better brawlers than BRody? Let's go down the list!!!

 

 

I could keep going if you want.

150?

[Tim Evans]

I'm sad that Dylan didn't include Josephus Brody. Or even Rip Morgan. Both do the Brody gimmick better than Brody.

[Chess Knight]

Nobody's mentioned Pirata Morgan

[Dylan Waco]

I think I can hit 150 with little problem. I'll start by picking from Bix some and go from there.

 

101. Masato Tanaka

102. Super Dragon

103. Koko Ware

104. Jackie Fargo

105. Doug Gilbert

106. Jeff Jarrett

107. Billy Travis

108. Tarzan Goto

109. Atsushi Onita

110. El Hijo Del Santo

111. El Hijo del Solitario

112. Villano III

113. Blue Panther

114. Tramua I

115. Trauma II

116. Dick Slater

117. Jushin Liger

118. Gedo

119. Perro Aguayo

120. Bob Sweetan

121. Austin Idol

122. Bam Bam Bigelow

123. Norvell Austin

124. Kazunari Murakami

125. Rip Oliver

126. Buddy Roberts

127. Brian Christopher

128. Derrick King

129. Kantaro Hoshino

130. Pirata Morgan

131. Chris Adams

132. Steve Williams

133. Sheamus

134. Dave Taylor

135. Gary Young

136. Riki Choshu

137. Daisuke Ikea

138. Takeshi Ono

139. Robert Gibson

140. Sabu

141. Chris Hero

142. Bobby Bass

143. Kengo Kimura

144. The Big Show

145. Bret Hart

146. Naoki Sano

147. Buddy Landell

148. Kevin Sullivan

149. Jamie Noble

150. La Fiera

 

 

Granted I extended this a bit to guys who build matches around hitting each other hard as fuck, but I think that falls under the general "brawl" metric

[Cox]

I am disappointed that nobody has said Robert Fuller yet.

[goodhelmet]

1. Dick Murdoch - One of the best brawlers EVER! We should just name it the Dick Murdoch Best Brawler award and get it over with. He'll punch you right in the face, turn around and get punched in the face and then punch in you in your ear after poking you in the eye. The Ted Dibiase December 1985 matches are an excellent example of the King of Brawling.

 

2. Ted Dibiase - Ted Dibiase isn't a great mat technician. He is an awesome brawler. His series with Duggan, Magnum TA and Dick Murdoch are all full of great brawls.

 

3. Buzz Sawyer - His series with Duggan is the best example of Buzz at his best. The pictures of his Tommy Rich series in the Apter mags make you wish some full matches existed. Even without those matches, Buzz has shown enough viciousness over the years to warrant being on this list.

 

4. Hacksaw Duggan - Duggan was the best babyface in Mid South history and he either kept up or exceeded the performance in most of the matches we watched during the Mid South set. He has the Dibiase series, the Kamala series, and the Buzz Sawyer series. On that set, you will not find a punch thrown by Duggan worse than the best Bruiser Brody punch. Duggan in Mid South ruled. Who gives a fuck about his WWF run?

 

5. Butch Reed - Butch had a great run with JYD in Mid South. He also had a nasty No DQ match against Dick Slater. It is also no surprise that Doom's most celebrated match is the Street Fight against the Horsemen.

 

6. Jerry Lawler

7. Bill Dundee

8. Dutch Mantel

- I am lumping these three together because all three of these guys have ahd great matches against each other that alone would qualify as better brawls than anything Brody ever did. Add the fact they all had bloodbaths and classics against dozens of other wrestlers and I feel safe including all of them in my Top Ten.

 

9 & 10. The Moondogs

- First, you have some of the greatest brawls I have ever seen against the Fabulous Ones. Hell, I should have put the Fabs right there. Then, a decade later, they rip it up for a year against Jerry Lawler & Jeff Jarrett.

[Dylan Waco]

I would note that I'm not even that big a fan of a lot of the guys on this list.

 

151. Robert Fuller

152. James Storm

153. Chris Harris

154. The Briscoes

155. Kevin Steen

156. Brodie Lee

157. Dick Togo

158. C.W. Anderson

159. Mikey Whipwreck

160. Curt Hennig

161. Rey Mysterio

162. Psicosis

163. Chavo Guerrero Jr.

164. Preston Quinn

165. AJ Styles

166. Fuerza Guerrera

167. Jake Roberts

168. Chris Hamrick

169. The Babarian

170. Meng

171. Bill Eadie

172. DDP

173. Sting

174. Low Ki

175. Ray Gonzalez

176. Matt Hardy

177. Doug Somes

178. Chuck Palumbo

179. Bull Nakano

180. Aja Kong

181. Mike Shaw

182. Megumi Kudo

183. Rick Steiner

184. Scott Steiner

185. Hisakatsu Oya

186. Matt Borne

187. Jerry Estrada

188. The Dream Machine

189. Balls Mahoney

190. Monsta Mack

191. Samoan Swat Team

192. Hayabusa

193. Too Cold Scorpio

194. Super Strong Machine

195. Jamie Dundee

196. Ed Wiskowski

197. Chris Benoit

198. Bruno Sammartino

199. Javier Cruz

200. JBL

[King Solomon]

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

 

Sorry but I'll take a Wrestler's opinion over a fans a lot of the time. They worked in the industry and breathed it. Their opinion carries more weight than a bunch of guys overanalyzing and overthinking the room on message boards. In football we call that Monday morning Qaurterbacking. There is a reason Color announcers are mostly former athletes rather than Joe Blow from the Internet Message Boards. This Brody bashing seems way too over the top to be taken seriously. I can see people saying he's overrated and I can deal with pointing out the flaws but I mean by hearing some on this board, Brody was a good for nothing Jabroni that wasn't worth crap. It seems as tho some of the hard core fans try to be contrarian for contrarian's sake and then go and rewrite history.

 

 

If you don't like message boards or opinions you will read on them a good strategy is to not read them or post on them. A poor strategy is to argue that people talking on message boards are dumb assholes who know nothing about wrestling - while posting on a wrestling message board.

 

I've watched the matches - Brody sucks. I want to like him, but it's really hard to like a guy who is so transparently poor. If this was pure revisionism there wouldn't be such a vast consensus on Brody sucking among people who have actually rewatched the matches recently, particularly among those of us who have radically different ideas about what does and doesn't make a good match.

 

I don' think wrestler's opinions are irrelevant in the sense that I find them interesting. But I will NEVER say "boy I thought that match sucked cock, but Ric Flair said it was great so it must be true."

 

 

"If you don't like message boards or opinions you will read on them a good strategy is to not read them or post on them. A poor strategy is to argue that people talking on message boards are dumb assholes who know nothing about wrestling - while posting on a wrestling message board. "

 

Man you are a sensitive! I never said any of what you posted above! If your going to quote me, get your shit straight!

[Matt D]

The simple fact of the matter is that we have different criteria. When we say a wrestler is better or worse, the criteria is what matters to us, whether it's having a match with coherent storytelling, having offense that look realistic, selling well and consistently, bumping big, or having a wide moveset.

 

Everyone's criteria are different. Different things matter to different people.

 

But since I don't have to work with the wrestler in question, I care a hell of a lot more about what people WATCHING the matches think than what people not watching the matches think, even if those people are other wrestlers.

[King Solomon]

I don't understand why other wrestlers' opinions are even brought up in this way of thinking. Bret Hart said the Dynamite Kid is the greatest of all time and that Ric Flair wasn't that good. Why on Earth would I change my opinion based on that? I watched 90s WWF Flair and thought he still looked really great. I watched 80s NJ Dynamite Kid and wanted to turn it off. I'm not going to think during it 'well Bret Hart loves this, so......' And I won't reconsider placing Flair in a top 5 all time because Bret has problems with his formula.

 

Hell, some of the things a wrestler looks for in another wrestler is a bit of the opposite that a fan can look for. I recall Bret complaining that Flair's chops hurt too much. I, as a fan, would actually want him to work stiffer. If I was a wrestler I'd want my opponent to work stiffer as well. Some wrestlers that aren't Bret Hart also would.

 

Then there's complete BS like Bret Hart saying 'Mexican wrestlers fly around but aren't really tough'. The bloodiest brawls I've seen in wrestling happened in Mexico.

 

My question is, should wrestlers' opinions of other wrestlers hold some weight, and how much?

No and none at all.

 

Sorry but I'll take a Wrestler's opinion over a fans a lot of the time. They worked in the industry and breathed it. Their opinion carries more weight than a bunch of guys overanalyzing and overthinking the room on message boards.

 

Can I ask what this means? I've read it from so many people so many time and it's always been really annoying. I've never understood what people meant by it. What are people overanalysing?

 

The 'contrarian' point is just as annoying but I at least know what that means.

 

 

Unless you were there time and place and I don't know who was or wasn't then you really have a limited understanding on why someone was over the way they were. Brody was adored in the late 70's -80's for a reason and that's beacuse he was a GREAT worker!! Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous. Brody had something that a lot of so called great in ring workers didn't and that's the "IT" factor and he had it in spades. I grew up watching all these Mexican jumping beans (btw I am Chicano) that were acrobactics but they had very little physical credibility and to me when I pay a ticket to watch wrestling I want to pay for a match that makes sense in a Kayfabe standpoint not two guys flipping, jumping and somersaulting their way all they way to the finish. This is why I never got in to the Tiger Mask-Dynamite matches. Brody had an aura that a lot of wrestlers today wish they had. He also could wrestle on the mat and he had vicious kicks. Too many guys have said that worked tight and stiff for me to buy into the theory that his offense sucked. He also had very good leaping ability, just look at his dropkicks.

[Bix]

Bob Holly also has a rep for stiffing guys while having horrible liking strikes. "Hurts like hell, looks like shit" is a common term in wrestling for a reason.

[goodhelmet]

Unless you were there time and place and I don't know who was or wasn't then you really have a limited understanding on why someone was over the way they were. Brody was adored in the late 70's -80's for a reason and that's beacuse he was a GREAT worker!!

I happened to have grown up in Texas during the peak of World Class and Brody was over... because he had a great look. It wasn't because he was a great worker because he left you empty back then just as he does now on videotape. You wished that you were given more than you were given. He didn't leave me wanting to see more Brody, he left me wishing someone else was in his place so the match would be better.

 

Point blank he was not your standard big man as he could go and had the endurance to do so on a consistent basis. Did he have bad matches? yes he did. Could he be overrated? yes I could see that based on the love he got back then. But does he suck? Only in a fantasy world where things are rewound over and over agian to fit a contrarian veiwpoint that some how has snowballed to enormous proportions to where it is utterly ridiculous.

Then you are posting at fantasy land and maybe this place isn't for you because we actually watch the matches, we don't rely on rose-colored glasses and faded memories.

 

 

I grew up watching all these Mexican jumping beans (btw I am Chicano) that were acrobactics but they had very little physical credibility and to me when I pay a ticket to watch wrestling I want to pay for a match that makes sense in a Kayfabe standpoint not two guys flipping, jumping and somersaulting their way all they way to the finish. This is why I never got in to the Tiger Mask-Dynamite matches.

So you have an inherent bias against Mexican wrestlers and the cruisers. Nothing wrong with that but your disdain for the luchadores doesn't make Brody any better.

 

Brody had an aura that a lot of wrestlers today wish they had. He also could wrestle on the mat and he had vicious kicks. Too many guys have said that worked tight and stiff for me to buy into the theory that his offense sucked. He also had very good leaping ability, just look at his dropkicks.

Someone already said it... who are you going to believe "Some wrestler or your lying eyes?" If Brody's dropkick knocks you out. Cool. However, if you are going to call him a great mat worker, yo ugotta come with the specific examples because he is pretty much the definition of the drizzling shits on the mat.