ECW or WWECW

[Matt D]

We have people here who are some of the strongest proponents of the WWE ECW on the internet. We also have people here who put together and/or participated in huge and lofty original ECW projects.

 

Therefore, I'm putting it to the board, which of the two had more high end matches? What was better?

[Dylan Waco]

They had totally different goals so the comparison is not easy. WWECW - particularly during the period where it was really good (08 and 09) was basically a place for guys getting broken in to work some of the better vets on the roster in long(ish) matches. The ECW title was sort of the equivalent of a tv title in that it was defended most weeks and the challenger could be anyone from Yoshi Tatsu to Tommy Dreamer to Harry Smith to William Regal. The storylines were completely self contained within that show and were given a more narrow focus than on the other major shows let alone the original ECW.

 

I will preface this by saying I haven't gone back and watched it the way I did with ECW, but I would say at it's absolute peak WWECW was better. That pains me to say because I'm a proponent of the view that "ECW is dated/doesn't age well" isn't true. But for the sort of matches I enjoy - psychology/selling heavy matches, with guys who have multiple credible finishes, getting plenty of time to work - WWECW was about as fulfilling as modern wrestling is going to get.

 

As a total package I'll take the original ECW because it was not a sterile promotion. It was filled with vitality and the errors were there but it didn't feel like an experiment being conducted in a lab with NIH funds. The crash tv booking could be annoying at time, but it led to lots of memorable moments and extremely fun angles. WWECW had it's own surreal/crazy moments - Ric Flair rolling around in tacks in a hometown ring while the crowd chants ECW being the most obvious - but not nearly as many and virtually none during the point where I thought it was really good.

 

Over the course of their respective runs I'm not sure who averaged more good matches relative to shows held. With ECW I've seen virtually everything that was committed to tape. I didn't see any WWECW house shows (though there weren't that many IIRC) and they had FAR less content. Guys like Tajiri and Scorp would maybe be comparable to Christian and Matt Hardy, though it really doesn't work because the WWE guys got far more time and weren't expected to fall through tables and smash each other with chairs nearly as much. I still think Tajiri from 99/00 is as consistently good a guy as I've ever seen and Scorp doing what he did was more impressive to me than what Hardy or Christian did. But in terms of really good matches? I'd really need to go back and watch the WWE stuff.

[Mr Wrestling X]

We have people here who are some of the strongest proponents of the WWE ECW on the internet. We also have people here who put together and/or participated in huge and lofty original ECW projects.

 

Therefore, I'm putting it to the board, which of the two had more high end matches? What was better?

Hmm, that's difficult. By WWECW, I assume you are referring to the "phased out" version of "ECW" that WWE began to roll out in late 07, and not the brief dabble into the territory of the original ECW?

 

WWECW had the superior athletes, that's for sure. There was nobody on the roster that was out of shape, working through an injury, or wrestling "under the influence". The original ECW on the other hand, were not always particularly discriminating about who they hired (Eric Kulas), or what condition their workers wrestled in. Sandman was regularly intoxicated, Sabu almost always suffered injuries in his more daring matches and would rarely (if never) take any extended period of time off to rehab. ECW didn't pose safety restrictions on their workers, piledrivers were a part of many wrestlers' arsenals and unprotected chairshots to the head were commonplace (I have no idea how Masato Tanaka's head is in one piece, let alone the fact he hasn't had to retire due to post-concussion trauma).

 

What made the original ECW was it's fanbase, the edginess and worked-shoot nature of the product, just as reality TV was really taking off, and the variety of talent. Everyone in WWE wrestles with a common style in mind, this was no different in WWECW, whereas the original ECW had wrestling styles from all over the world. The crowds at WWECW events were bland, often disinterested and there for the fact it was "WWE" and not ECW. The original ECW was the superior promotion when it came to creating and developing characters. Some of that you can put down to Paul Heyman and his niche for seeking out personalities that had a "spark" that he could build upon. Raven and Taz are two good examples of this, having had the best brought out of them in ECW and not getting much further past mediocrity in WWE (hell, Raven's WCW run wasn't THAT eventful either).

 

As for matches, you have to consider that a decent amount of WWECW's talent were developmental wrestlers, who regardless of talent, were still getting used to the WWE way of wrestling. Matches were strictly choreographed and were a lot slicker and smoother than what can be said for the original ECW. But, the original ECW had the unpredictability factor, the incredibly passionate audiences, the wrestlers that were free from restraints (in case they showed the main eventers up) and a greater variety in matches.

 

WWECW had all the goods to be a decent promotion/brand, but ECW was so much more entertaining.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm not nearly as much of a WWECW booster as some here, but ECW represents everything I loathe about wrestling.

[WingedEagle]

Going on gut WWECW produced more in the ring that will be looked back upon favorably than ECW. But as far as angles, creativity and impacting a segment of a generation of fans, ECW has it. I still remember staying up late in middle/high school to catch the latest from Heyman on MSG. That was never the case on SciFi.

[Matt D]

ECW was literally the only TV that I went out of my way to watch live in 09. In fact, I REALLY went out of my way to see the Regal vs Christian match from the UK because it was that much of a big deal at the time.

[goc]

ECW was literally the only TV that I went out of my way to watch live in 09. In fact, I REALLY went out of my way to see the Regal vs Christian match from the UK because it was that much of a big deal at the time.

I can't speak to the original ECW as I've seen very little of it. But for a couple years WWECW was the only wrestling I would regularly watch, and not just watch but usually be excited to watch. After JBL left Smackdown, ECW was the only wrestling I was watching outside of goodhelmet comps probably right up until the time that CM Punk started his feud with Jeff Hardy.

 

I loved ECW because it was SIMPLE. They stayed focused on a few storylines, and had such a small roster that they had to keep everyone fairly strong. Even Stevie Richards had a win streak at one point. Plus it would probably have as much wrestling or more in 1 hour than Raw or iMPACT would have in 2. With a roster that at different points included: William Regal, Finlay, CM Punk, Evan Bourne, Christian, Matt Hardy, Mark Henry, Goldust, etc.

 

ECW was also great as a starting point for bringing new guys into the company. Guys who started on ECW and went on to success on Raw or Smackdown include: CM Punk, Sheamus, Kofi Kingston, Evan Bourne, Jack Swagger. It was also a big boost to careers of younger guys like John Morrison, Miz & Zack Ryder who were given time to develop characters that they probably wouldn't have gotten on Raw or Smackdown.

 

In closing, I still miss ECW and wish I was watching Drew McIntyre as ECW Champion instead of a part of 3MB.

[rzombie1988]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

[Dylan Waco]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

Come on what? I said this in more detail in the first response in this thread.

[jpchicago23]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

 

Yea i agree. To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched. ECW had a lot of faults but it was also very ground breaking. To reach national exposure from where they started says a whole lot as to how popular ECW became. WWECW had good wrestling on it from time to time but also had very shitty wrestling. A better comparison would be WCW Worldwide to WWECW or something of that nature. I remember a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time and now everyone loves it, gotta love the internet.

[EricR]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

 

Yea i agree. To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched. ECW had a lot of faults but it was also very ground breaking. To reach national exposure from where they started says a whole lot as to how popular ECW became. WWECW had good wrestling on it from time to time but also had very shitty wrestling. A better comparison would be WCW Worldwide to WWECW or something of that nature. I remember a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time and now everyone loves it, gotta love the internet.

 

People were shitting on it when it first started and was finding its footing, but if there were people still shitting on it in 2009 when you had long matches every week from Finlay, Evan Bourne, Mark Henry, Christian, Jack Swagger, etc. then those people are just going to be the types who shit on most kinds of good wrestling.

[goc]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

 

Yea i agree. To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched. ECW had a lot of faults but it was also very ground breaking. To reach national exposure from where they started says a whole lot as to how popular ECW became. WWECW had good wrestling on it from time to time but also had very shitty wrestling. A better comparison would be WCW Worldwide to WWECW or something of that nature. I remember a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time and now everyone loves it, gotta love the internet.

 

There were a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time but there was also a small minority of people who were banging the drum that ECW was the best hour of wrestling on TV. I certainlty remember saying it and seeing a few other people, probably some of them in this thread, saying the same. It's not our fault people were too busy shitting on it for not "being important." Most of the criticisms of ECW at the time could be boiled down to "it's not Raw" which were the same criticisms Smackdown would get during the times it was consistently the better show. I DON'T CARE if WWE made it clear it was the "C-show" if it meant they didn't fuck it up and just gave good wrestlers time to wrestle. The criticism wasn't about the wrestling and if it was, it was wrong. The good to bad wrestling ratio on ECW weighed heavily to the good.

[Dylan Waco]

Come on guys. WWECW was fun and all, but that's about it. It was a TV show but not a full fledged promotion. I'm not a big fan of ECW and loved WWECW, but it is comparing two diferent things.

 

Yea i agree. To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched. ECW had a lot of faults but it was also very ground breaking. To reach national exposure from where they started says a whole lot as to how popular ECW became. WWECW had good wrestling on it from time to time but also had very shitty wrestling. A better comparison would be WCW Worldwide to WWECW or something of that nature. I remember a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time and now everyone loves it, gotta love the internet.

 

 

I loved it in 08 and 09 and said so at the time to anyone who would listen.

 

Also as much as I love ECW an as influential as I think they were, that second sentence is a hyperbolic even by my standards.

[WingedEagle]

Yea i agree. To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched. ECW had a lot of faults but it was also very ground breaking. To reach national exposure from where they started says a whole lot as to how popular ECW became. WWECW had good wrestling on it from time to time but also had very shitty wrestling. A better comparison would be WCW Worldwide to WWECW or something of that nature. I remember a lot of people shitting on WWECW at the time and now everyone loves it, gotta love the internet.

I loved ECW then and still enjoy looking back at it, especially some of the promos and angles. It also opened the big 2's eyes to a lot of talent, ideas and styles that may otherwise not have been appreciated or exposed quite as much. But as long as Austin and Rock make their way to CT, that rocket is taking off on essentially the same trajectory with or without ECW.

[jpchicago23]

Hyperbole is saying a c show was better than a top promotion of its era. And I was referring to ecw being an influence to the attitude era which it clearly was. Austin was a huge star ready to burst but the ecw influence made WWE become edgier and Austin stood out being one of the first to have the " attitude". In saying that I lined wwecw myself since it was a wrestling heavy show and featured funlay a lot who I love but I just can't see it being better than the original

[Dylan Waco]

Hyperbole is saying ECW was a "top promotion of its era." It wasn't. At any point. In fact it was never even CLOSE to being a top promotion of it's era. I'm not even sure we can point to a point where ECW was a top three promotion in North America. ECW was never a to five promotion in the World. Calling it a "top promotion of its era" is not a claim I would want to have to defend, particularly in an argument about hyperbolic statements.

 

ECW had influence - crediting them with having a big hand in making WWE a huge juggernaut strikes me as a far more hyperbolic statement than saying "I think WWECW's best matches were better."

[goc]

My praise of WWECW really has nothing to do with comparing it to the original. It's simply a defense of something a lot of people seemed to completely write off and were happy to see die. A lot of my favorite things over the past few years in current wrestling are gone. There's no more WWECW, there's no Ring Ka King, there's no more Chris Masters matches on Superstars and the Don West heel announcer experiment ended long ago. I'd at least like to keep people from pissing on the graves.

[WingedEagle]

There's nothing at all hyperbolic about stating a preference for WWECW's matches to ECW's, or vice versa. That's a purely subjective observation and I'd listen to a credible case for either, even if I think the mcmahon-branded matches hold up better. But to say that ECW was responsible for or caused WWE's boom or to somehow suggest it was anything more than a somewhat visible player in the same industry is effing ludicrous.

 

And I LOVED original ECW.

[jpchicago23]

U mean to tell me Ecw was never a top three promotion in the us? WWE wcw then ecw. In 98 for example who would've been third I'm curious to hear this one. And WWE clearly got influences of the attitude era from ecw which got influence from Memphis and so on. Let's not be rediculous to prove a point.

[jpchicago23]

And I never said ecw was the reason for it I said it was an influence. You can kill that notion

[Dylan Waco]

U mean to tell me Ecw was never a top three promotion in the us? WWE wcw then ecw. In 98 for example who would've been third I'm curious to hear this one. And WWE clearly got influences of the attitude era from ecw which got influence from Memphis and so on. Let's not be rediculous to prove a point.

ECW was maybe a top three promotion in the U.S. from 96 on, but the gap between them and two massive. I don't know how AAA was drawing from 1996 on in the States which is why I say "maybe." They were almost certainly not a top three promotion in North America at any point.

[JerryvonKramer]

What was business like for USWA in 1996?

[Dylan Waco]

And I never said ecw was the reason for it I said it was an influence. You can kill that notion

Here is what you said:

 

To say a show was better than a promotion that revolutionized wrestling and helped turn WWE into the most profitable wrestling promotion in the US is a little far fetched.

 

I assume your point when you use that sort of language is that the influence was big time and significant. I suppose the line about how ECW helped turn WWE into the most profitable promotion in the U.S. could be read a multitude of ways, but I don't read it to mean "eh, they had some influence and deserve credit for it."

[Chess Knight]

Is it hyperbolic to say WWE ECW in 2009 was one of the most consistent shows at producing good matches, possibly ever? Maybe it helps that I'm not a guy who typically watches full shows, but I find myself wanting to with ECW that year. I spent time a couple months back watching every match Christian had that year (though I'm not done yet) and it's kind of staggering how good his matches week after week were. Throw in Finlay, Bourne, Henry, Goldust, Regal and other dudes who weren't always wrestling Christian and there are a great fuckton of good matches during that time.

[jpchicago23]

So are you talking quality or drawing wise? Honest question. I know little about lucha so I can't comment on north America buy I can see where you're coming from if you're using drawing numbers as your argument. I may have taken the question the wrong way but to me its apples and oranges. I also think a lot of the negative stigma was the ecw name being attached to it in the first place. You kind of dig a hole from the beginning calling it that.