Nick Bockwinkel

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, a much simpler explanation is that Flair's character had macho pride where Bock's didn't.

 

I don't think either guy is as two dimensional as that but as a rule of thumb, it accounts for the feeling of Flair's greatness, his true colours are wanting to prove he's a better man. Bock's true colours are basically cowardly and villainous.

[ohtani's jacket]

Dylan, a much simpler explanation is that Flair's character had macho pride where Bock's didn't.

 

I don't think either guy is as two dimensional as that but as a rule of thumb, it accounts for the feeling of Flair's greatness, his true colours are wanting to prove he's a better man. Bock's true colours are basically cowardly and villainous.

If Flair's true colours are wanting to prove he's the better man then I think it only applies to the times when he was a face. As a heel, winning proved he was the better man and Flair and his group would do anything to keep the belt. Deep into a match, you were supposed to believe that all his talk was false bravado and that he was afraid of being shown up for what he truly was.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Bock also had the whole, calm "I'm smarter than you" deal going on with his villain character. That adds a lot to the psychology of his matches and his promos explaining himself.

[khawk20]

If it's turned to guys trying to tell me Hawk wasn't a selfish worker, we're not having the discussion I want here. I actively despise him in one of those Flair matches. You can start a Road Warriors thread so I know to stay out of it.

 

I think someone that looked like Hawk took Jerry's lunch money at school every day while he was growing up.

[khawk20]

I don't think either guy is as two dimensional as that but as a rule of thumb, it accounts for the feeling of Flair's greatness, his true colours are wanting to prove he's a better man. Bock's true colours are basically cowardly and villainous.

Jerry, I don't know if you are old enough to have read the Weston/Apter mags (PWI, Inside Wrestling, etc.) from the 80's, but what you're saying here is almost exactly how Flair and Bockwinkel were portrayed by those magazines in kayfabe terms back then. What those mags never talked about were Bockwinkel's clean wins in blowoffs (by design, of course, to reinforce their portrait of his championship reign). Their writing angle was Bock only retained the title by cheating, at all costs, and that he couldn't win a match cleanly to save his life. Obviously not true but the idea behind their stories was to build the face challengers' obstacles they faced in trying to win the AWA title from Bock (from Heenan interfering, to Bock always disqualifying himself, to refusing to grant deserving guys title shots).

 

Flair, on the other hand, was portrayed as the greatest thing since sliced bread from 1981-83. You'd have thought he was beating two guys at once in every title defense going by the articles of the day (and they always seemed to note that Flair actually DID beat guys, like Race, DiBiase, and others that you never heard about taking a pinfall loss cleanly, without something unusual happening to cause it).

 

Where I think those mags ran into trouble was the WWF Expansion, where they literally had to start portraying the NWA as the vastly superior territory, and, by extension, built Flair into even more of a "greatest wrestler ever". At least for a little while. As Flair became more visible as Champion during the 84-88 period, it was impossible to hide his in-ring antics/cowardice/cheating from their articles, but the mags always implied that Flair could beat them on his own if he chose to do so.

 

I therefore conclude, after reading Jerry's arguments in this thread, that JerryVonKramer is, in fact, Bill Apter (or maybe Steve Farhood).

[JerryvonKramer]

I was trying to account for why at least 3 of us had a feeling of Flair's greatness but not of Bock's, my argument was that it comes down to kayfabe presentation. So all in all I'm not displeased with that.

[khawk20]

In terms of kayfabe presentation, my recollection of mag portrayals of both pre-1986 (if a bar needs to be set, time-wise) falls in line with what you're trying to say.

[Matt D]

How resented was Bock for how he got the title in the early 80s?

[khawk20]

I know that there were a lot of face and heel interviews complaining about Bock getting the title on a silver platter in the months immediately after it happened (Jerry Blackwell going off about it in an interview comes to mind right away, with Bock and the Heenan Family coming out later to present a rebuttal), so they were smart enough to work what would be the normal, natural reaction of the other wrestlers in the area into the TV right after it happened.

 

From a 'fabe standpoint, magazine wise, I don't remember the mags going off on the decision too badly but it was there. The mags were written so much differently that even if the writers of the mags were doing a head-shake at the decision, they would have mostly kept it to themselves. Editorial opinion was limited.

 

From a fan standpoint, there was a lot of eye-rolling and, to a point, I believe it affected business a little bit. Bock's first title defense in the Twin Cities after getting the belt back was in June 1981 against Baron Von Raschke, who had just re-entred the area as Mad Dog Vachon's avenger against Blackwell and Studd. H was white hot as a face, so the matchup should have drawn a big house. It did not (The Minneapolis Auditorium is noticably empty for this matchup). Subsequently, Bock was programmed into a series against Sheik Kaissie (White hot as a heel wrestler, completely hated by everyone), which was able to draw sympathy for Bock as the default-face in their feud (they hated him less), and thus legitimize his claim to the title in the fans eyes. After that, fans were more forgiving and when Hogan came in a few months later and turned face, things got "back to normal", so to speak.

 

The decision is looked at now as being awful with the full benefit of hindsight on any message board discussing the AWA, but, at the time, it only had a limited effect on business in the AWA and how the fans viewed the title.

[Superstar Sleeze]

Blizzard here in New England, which means a lot of time to watch wrestling!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5wI0a6Hmec

 

I have always been a sucker for a good drop toe-hold and Bock had a bitchin' one! In all seriousness, before my big push to devour massive amounts of wrestling this past year, I always liked Bock/Hennig and wanted to explore more Bock, but never had the time. I have really liked his All Japan work against the likes of Jumbo, The Funks and Billy Robinson, where he works holds ferociously. I like a good brawl as much as anyone, dont get me wrong, but I do prefer grappling. Bock is great about chaining his stuff together in logical fashion. His singles match with Funk illustrates his ability to brutalize Funk's knee, which creates a great hook for the match.

 

After seeing this more violent side of Bockwinkel, I was looking for more match where he roughhouses more and no better place to look than Memphis. Where I found him taking on my favorite, Randy Savage. Did this make the Memphis set? It was only 11 minutes, but I thought it ruled the school.

 

Bockwinkel starts off hot and just really unloads with the offense, granted he is playing the babyface in this match, which at first really feels weird in Memphis. I know there were some complaints of him bumping way too much for "low-card" babyfaces in TV matches so being the babyface in this match; you are guaranteed to see him be on the attack and he is really violent about it. Bockwinkel feels like more of the de facto babyface (watching this match without context) as he is using dirty tactics as standing on Savage's throat and such, but being cheered for it. Even the announcer remarks that this is the first time in five years that he has heard Bockwinkel get cheered in Memphis.

 

Savage is his usual great self and contains his inner Memphis heel enough to the match doesn't have much of that jarring start-stop Memphis feel and instead focuses on having a balls-to-the-wall sprint. What I have always loved about Savage as a heel is that his character is has absolutely no redeeming qualities. He is one of the most low-down, good for nothing, egg-sucking dogs there ever was. He cheats, chokes and peppers with his usual array of offense (wind-up punch, double axe-handle, high knee).

 

Who is Newman? I am not as familiar with Memphis wrestling so I have never seen him before.

 

Besides having possibly the best drop toehold (Rotundo's is pretty nifty), Bock has hands-down the best knee lift in wrestling that thing is sweet. I'd put it up against Flair's reverse elbow any day of the week.

 

The finish is a fantastic one with the manager distracting Bock, only for Savage to get the always lethal ballshot/piledriver combo for the win. All in all, I was expecting a clipped up match with no finish and instead I got an action-packed, violent confrontation between two guys I regard as the best of all time.

[Superstar Sleeze]

AWA Wrestling Party inspired me to watch some Bock/Verne! AWA World Heavyweight Champion Nick Bockwinkel vs. Verne Gagne - 2/10/79 Chicago This match felt a lot like a WWF Title Defense with a lot of babyface offense. It that a commonplace among Northern promotions? I will say moreso than most 70s matches they were really laying in their offense on each other. Verne may have looked like an old man, but he was kicking some serious ass against Bock. Bock was no slouch. In a common spot, where Bock goes to jumps down on Verne knee and misses, but instead of just missing he slams his ass into the mat. It is simple, but such commitment. It is JIP, but there does not seem like there are any other clips and it seemed pretty intact. Gagne was migrating and gyrating flustering Bock and then busting out a pretty sweet double arm scissors. After that he goes to the Indian Deathlock, but Bock uses the tights to break it up. Verne goes after the arm tenaciously, but Bock cuts this off with punches, lots of choking and onslaught of boots, but Gagne fires up with lots of bodyslams and strikes. Gagne misses the knee and here comes Bock. Gagne immediately turns over the figure-4 and then Bock whiffs on jumping on Gagne's knee. Gagne rakes Bock's face with his boot. Verne getting down and dirty! They fight over a headlock pretty fiercely with Bock dragging Verne over and raking his face over ropes and choking him. Verne spreads his leg on Bock's piledriver. I feel bad for the fan behind that view. Bock takes the back body drop. Verne cross bodies Bock over the top rope and they got me to bite that as a double countout finish. GAGNE CHOKE! Bobby tries to prevent this miscarriage of justice and gets dragged in. He hits Gagne for the DQ. Verne, justifiably pissed, whips Bobby into the turnbuckle and he taps a gusher. Verne showing he is more of high flyer than his kid hits a flying knee from the top. We get a great view of Bobby's crimson mask. Personal preferences aside (I like longer heat segments), they cut one helluva pace and Gagne's offense looked really credible. In the Verne's age versus Greg's physique debate, Verne overcomes his inherent disadvantage better if you ask me. Some of the early stuff can feel a little like an exhibition of Verne's offense, but halfway through they were really struggling over their holds and working to counter each other. Of the 70s matches, I have seen this has been one of the better ones. I would rank this a bit below the elite Backlund & Bockwinkel stuff, but still a very fun watch. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

AWA World Heavyweight Champion Nick Bockwinkel vs Verne Gagne - 7/18/80 Chicago They did not cut the same pace as the above match. This one went 22 minutes and we got about 15 minutes, which is not too bad. Bock starts off the match hot with a nice Thesz Press and gets an early nearfall. Bock bitches out for Verne a bit, but Bock is able to grab a top wristlock. The top wristlock and double wristlock (Verne uses in response) are two of the harder holds to make entertaining even are wicked holds in MMA (props to Brock for getting it over). They do well by armdragging and slamming out of it, but holding on. They make Baba proud with a surfboard test of strength (if this had Japanese commentary, I am sure they would be losing their shit). Verne starts laying in some shots in the corner that look really good especially kneedrops, but Bock is able to trip him up from the outside and wrap his leg around the post. Once again, Verne cuts Bock off a little early for my tastes especially since he is going over by breaking up a leg lace with his free leg. Credit to Verne, he is selling the leg like a champ and Bock is really good at selling fatigue. Verne's knee gives out on a bodyslam attempt, which I always dig, but Bock misses his knee drop onto Verne's knee (variation of transition spot above). Verne has one heavy sunset flip and then they knock heads pretty violently. Bock gets the piledriver, but no win and he goes to the well one too many times. Verne misses a dropkick; Bock tries to pounce and whiffs; GAGNE CHOKE! Gagne wins! Babyfaces flood the ring to celebrate. This is a step down from the previous match because of the lack pacing and there are less strikes. They are working holds more and holds that are hard to wrench in a good wrestling way. After the leg work by Bock, the match picks up, but still it is not enough to get the match over the top. Again, I have feel like Verne gobbled up Bockwinkel, which was weird since he was going over so he could have had a real sweet comeback to take the win. Of what we saw, it was sound, but nothing that sets your world a fire. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

AWA World Heavyweight Champion Verne Gagne vs Nick Bockwinkel - 5/10/81 St. Paul Verne's Retirement Match Win, lose or draw he is retiring and trying to be the first to do it as champion. This match is similar to the one above, but has a way better home stretch and it feels more intact as I think the time announcement may have been gimmicked. I could not find the actual match time on this one, but we have 19 minutes of footage (though includes intros and post-match). If you tack this home stretch on the beginning of the '79 match, I say you have an all-time classic, but I think I would go the '79 match by a hair. Instead of the hot Thesz Press, they do a tenacious lock-up. Bock wins with a top wristlock and they do a little test of strength before some Gagne armdrags with Bock holding on, which I enjoy. Verne eventually gets him into an armbar, but Bock uses the hair to get out, but Verne is able to transition a armdarg into an armbar to see Heenan flip out at ringside makes that spot. There is a commercial clip (forgot that) and Bock ends getting his legs stretched as if he had a cramp in there during a basketball game (this is why I like '79 match better). Verne works the spinning toe hold well before Bock grabs the crossface. Bock is usually the one that instigates that chippiness and the earlier he can the better the matches are. They work a ref bump into the match, which I dig as it is an interesting wrinkle. Verne gets two dropkicks, but no ref. "Wicked" Nick gets him from behind with a double axe-handle and a dramatic two count. Gagne makes a mini-comback. Jesus, dude, let Bock have some sustained offense. Bock gets the piledriver for 2 and he is in disbelief trying two more pinfalls. Bock is going for falls after everything trying to scrape a win together. GAGNE CHOKE! HUGE POP! Bock reverses into the ORIENTAL SLEEPER! Gagne is fighting it with all he has got and is selling really well, before executing a belly to back suplex for the win and to retire as champion. I liked this finish better than the others, but the work at the beginning was the same sound, solid work as the '80 match. So I am going with '79 match as the match to watch between these two. There are two mentalities: the babyface always goes over in the end and upon leaving you do the job. Something had to give. Personally, Gagne going over Bock in a non-title setting for his "retirement" match may be better from a long-term standpoint, but they said on camera they drew 17,000 for this sweet gimmick of can Verne retire as champion (think Sampras at 2002 US Open that's some sweet shit). I think most people would agree that it was how they handled just giving the belt back to Bock was the issue. However, there was a real drop off after Bockwinkel, he seemed to defend against Tito a lot during '81 (Thanks Mookie!), but they probably would have had to gotten a big name outsider to really draw.

[Matt D]

Bock/Lanza vs Funks - AJPW - 12/5/78

 

I don't have time to really write this up but I liked it a ton. It was best when Terry and/or Bockwinkel was in there but the other two did their part as well. The basic story was that the Funks outwrestled Bockwinkel and Lanza but Bock and Lanza were able to use heel tactics and smart tag wrestling. The best stuff was the early armwork, the great transition where Lanza took over on Funk by tossing him out (huge bump) and slapping the claw on the outside and the FIP segment that followed and the return of the claw at the end of the match, which had some real drama. Bockwinkel and Funk especially worked the holds so well and Lanza looked positively deranged with his balding crazy hair when he was using the claw.

 

Bockwinkel vs Robinson - AJPW - 11.12.1980

 

You crazy folks are really telling me there are 14 80s AJPW matches better than this? Really? Holy crap. The sense of struggle in this match is amazing. In the beginning you see one of the best worked headscissors ever followed by one of the best worked headlocks ever and it just goes up from there. There are so many moments in this thing, the european uppercut followed by Bockwinkel's return punch, Bock trying to get out of the headlock but getting taken back down and in a moment later again and again, the sheer desperation once he goes to the leg the first time and starts to get some traction only to be unable to keep it up (and the way he RUSHED back to the leg after the ref broke it was just brilliant as ever Bock), again the sense of struggle in things like the piledriver reversal and even a whip into the corner. They don't half ass anything and the attention to detail adds so much emotion. When Robinson's leg finally goes out on the second Robinson backbreaker, and then Robinson after the figure four fighting on one leg with his own sense of desperation. The finish is downright beautiful with the two of them punching away as the time goes out, both half dead from the war, and ending up collapsed against each other in the ropes, even though they'd just been trying to kill each other. They didn't want to be there in that sort of kindred embrace but their bodies gave them no choice. It makes the shake of the hand that follows even more poignant.

[claw64]

I'm a bit biased. I saw Nick's entire career in the AWA. He wasn't always with Heenan in the AWA. Heenan became the manager of Bockwinkel & Stevens in August of 1974 after Bobby left Bruiser's WWA. Nick was the AWA wrestler of the 1970s. While Billy Robinson may have been better technically, Bockwinkel was the total package. He could talk you into an arena just to see him hopefully get his tail kicked. Heenan added to that once he became Bockwinkel's manager. While Flair became formulaic, the majority of Nick's matches were different. Bockwinkel's AWA prime would have been 1972 to 1981. .

[shoe]

I'm a bit biased. I saw Nick's entire career in the AWA. He wasn't always with Heenan in the AWA. Heenan became the manager of Bockwinkel & Stevens in August of 1974 after Bobby left Bruiser's WWA. Nick was the AWA wrestler of the 1970s. While Billy Robinson may have been better technically, Bockwinkel was the total package. He could talk you into an arena just to see him hopefully get his tail kicked. Heenan added to that once he became Bockwinkel's manager. While Flair became formulaic, the majority of Nick's matches were different. Bockwinkel's AWA prime would have been 1972 to 1981. .

 

I've always thought Bock, and Buddy Rose are the best at working different types of matches.

[Matt D]

I'm a bit biased. I saw Nick's entire career in the AWA. He wasn't always with Heenan in the AWA. Heenan became the manager of Bockwinkel & Stevens in August of 1974 after Bobby left Bruiser's WWA. Nick was the AWA wrestler of the 1970s. While Billy Robinson may have been better technically, Bockwinkel was the total package. He could talk you into an arena just to see him hopefully get his tail kicked. Heenan added to that once he became Bockwinkel's manager. While Flair became formulaic, the majority of Nick's matches were different. Bockwinkel's AWA prime would have been 1972 to 1981. .

 

I envy you for that since there's not a lot of footage out there from the first half of the decade especially. I will say that the matches with Verne from the very early 80s are some of my least favorite Bockwinkel work. He's a bit more frantic than usual and tends to bump around the ring for Gagne and to give him a huge chunk of the match, to its detriment. It could be that this was sort of the farewell run for the old guy or that's just how you wrestle your egomaniacal boss, but I've always wondered a bit if that was just more how Bockwinkel worked earlier into the 70s when he was younger and more athletic.

[khawk20]

If you haven't seen it yet, find the Bock-Verne match from Chicago on 2/11/79. It aired on one of the Japan Classics show (they were there to tape Baba vs. Abdullah and another tag match IIRC). You could compare your thoughts on their 80's stuff you've seen to that Verne-Bock match, which was more of a one-off, in the sense that Bock was built as avoiding Verne throughout much of his title run.

 

[Matt D]

Have you guy all seen this? It's only a few minutes of action but it's well worth watching. I think this is different than the other andre vs bock footage that's been on youtube for years.

 

[goc]

People really seemed to like the Stan Hansen vs. Carlos Colon feud all in one video so I thought I would share this one that I just found. This claims to be the whole Larry Z/Bock feud (not my upload)

 

[WingedEagle]

Awesome. Do you have the match listings for it?

[goc]

No dates.

 

1. In This Corner - Bockwinkel video
2. In This Corner - Zybysko and Larry Nelson interview with Bockwinkel
3. Bockwinkel & Zbyszko (with Ray Stevens) vs Curt Hennig & Tom Zenk
4. Bockwinkel, Stevens & Zbyszko vs Greg Gagne, Curt Hennig & Scott Hall (Super Clash I)
5. Zybyszko vs Greg Gagne (The nunchuk incident, start of the feud)
6. Bockwinkel interview
7. Bockwinkel & Greg Gagne vs Zbyszko & Mr. Saito
8. Bockwinkel vs Zbyszko (special referee Scott Ledoux)
9. Bockwinkel interview
10. Bockwinkel interview
11. Bockwinkel interview (with the whip)
12. Bockwinkel interview
13. Zybsyko video
14. Zbyszko interview
15. Zbyszko vs Bockwinkel (fancam match)
16. Zbyszko vs Bockwinkel footage from nightly newscast (shows match ending)
17. Zbyszko interview
18. Bockwinkel interview
19. Bockwinkel vs Zbyszko music video
20. Bockwinkel (champion) vs Zbyszko (AWA title match)
21. Bockwinkel & Stevens vs Zbyszko & Super Ninja
22. Bockwinkel, Stevens & Greg Gagne vs Zbyszko, Super Ninja & Saito
23. Bockwinkel (champion) vs Curt Hennig (AWA title match, Super Clash 2)
24. Bockwinkel vs Zbyszko
25. Bockwinkel vs Curt Hennig
26. Zbyszko vs Mr. Saito (champion) (AWA title match, special referee Nick Bockwinkel)
27. Zbyszko interview

[WingedEagle]

Thanks.

[khawk20]

For the record I made that Bock-Larry Comp several years ago so I have a hard copy if it somehow disappears from youtube, should anyone need it down the line.

 

That Andre-Bock match was aired in the "Classic match from the past" segment on TSN Wrestling back in 1985 or so.

[Matt D]

I feel like this is pretty much the only Bockwinkel footage we have from the 60s:

 

[Matt D]

And Bock as a Contestant on Hollywood Squares:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7fEGnm-_hA

[JerryvonKramer]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Buddy Hackett was a spitting image of Wahoo McDaniel.