Does wrestling TV need writers?

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm on a bit of a shoot kick at the moment, watching some of the more recent ones. I've just watched the first 30 minutes of the Vince Russo Guest Booker one. Things started off pretty well for Russ -- I absolutely agree with him that characters and emotional investment are more important than moves or match quality. Nothing new there. But then as he kept talking my blood started to boil.

 

Russo starts the interview by rejecting the label of a booker. He says he was never a booker. He was a television writer.

 

He elaborates on why a writer is necessary in today's wrestling. When Sean Oliver asks him why so many guys now lack the personalities of the people he worshiped as a kid (Lou Albano, Chief Jay Strongbow), Russo's answer was that it's because they are thinking about their next move and getting that right, rather than thinking about what their character would do. The reason for this, he says, is because they grew up playing video games. (???!)

 

He might be right to an extent, but isn't half of it also that they have scripted promos? Not so, for Russo, he points to an example of a guy in TNA for whom he scripted every line. After he left TNA, they moved to a format of just three bullet points. Russo smugly pointed out that without the script, this guy was totally lost.

 

Russo's argument is effectively this:

 

- No matter how talented the guy, for 52 weeks of tv a year you need material. It doesn't matter how good a promo you are, the writer needs to be there to give you stuff to say.

 

All I could think about during this was Will's Horsemen set, where we get week-after-week-after-week of Flair, Arn, Ole and Tully cutting promos which I assume weren't in any way scripted.

 

But the key distinction between then and now is that they were selling house shows, and using television as a vehicle to get themselves over and boost their gates. Now the television itself is the thing.

 

So I ask you luminaries of PWO: are writers now necessary for wrestling on television?

 

My own view will not come as a surprise to anybody: I find scripted promos almost always come off as phony. Wrestlers are not actors and, most of the time, just don't have the ability to recite from a script and make it believable. This is one of the reasons I don't watch any more, because so many segments are skin-curlingly embarrassing. So obviously scripted, so obviously inauthentic. Not only that, but they stultify the creativity of every wrestler. If you are a young guy getting into the business and you know that someone else is going to think of what you have to say, of course you're going to become reliant on that, of course you're never going to think about your character in the same way as if you had a hand in its creation. There's a big difference between being given a character and then left to craft it yourself ("This is the character, now make it work"), and being given a character and micro-managed at every stage down to the last word ("This is the character, this is what you do, this is what you say").

 

I honestly don't believe that the problem is with the performers, it's with the structure and the system.

[El-P]

Short answer : no. Wrestling needs bookers.

The era of the wrestling "writers" has been worst ever in term of angles and characters.

[thebrainfollower]

There's not much more I can say other than I agree with JVK and EL-P 100%.

[Laney]

I agree that writers are not necessary. Wrestling was great for years without writers and I would most certainly say that much of those promos were better than what we have in the current era of writers. I think one of the key issues with writers, is that it makes it more difficult for the guy giving the promo. If it is something that a guy comes up with on their own it is easier for them to throw their emotions and true feelings into the promo.

 

I'm not sure if the example that Russo gives of the guy in TNA being lost without a script is bs, but I could totally see it as being true. Since guys have been given scripts for their promos for so long I can justifiably see many of them becoming reliant on it.

 

 

On a side note:

 

I haven't watched that Russo shoot, but I agree 100% that many guys are concentrating on moves more than their personalities these days. I would even go so far as to say that the concentration on moves is not only detrimental to the characters, but to the matches themselves. Guys are concentrating too much on high spots and false finishes that the match has absolutely no sense of direction. Just watch any Davey Richards match if you want an example.

[JerryvonKramer]

Sean Oliver: [Let's say] I'm a fan in the audience now of WWE's product. Are these guys heels?

 

Vince Russo: It doesn't matter. I couldn't care less. Are people watching the show? That's the question. Are people watching the show? I couldn't care less if they're booing them, if they're cheering them, it means absolutely nothing to me. The only thing that means anything to me is: what is that number on Tuesday morning, Tuesday afternoon. That's it.

[El-P]

Sean Oliver: [Let's say] I'm a fan in the audience now of WWE's product. Are these guys heels?

 

Vince Russo: It doesn't matter. I couldn't care less. Are people watching the show? That's the question. Are people watching the show? I couldn't care less if they're booing them, if they're cheering them, it means absolutely nothing to me. The only thing that means anything to me is: what is that number on Tuesday morning, Tuesday afternoon. That's it.

This is the very exact quote I was thinking about. This synthetizes pretty much why Russo doesn't understand shit about wrestling and why he did so much harm. Of course it matters you fucking idiot.

[MJH]

Sean Oliver: [Let's say] I'm a fan in the audience now of WWE's product. Are these guys heels?

 

Vince Russo: It doesn't matter. I couldn't care less. Are people watching the show? That's the question. Are people watching the show? I couldn't care less if they're booing them, if they're cheering them, it means absolutely nothing to me. The only thing that means anything to me is: what is that number on Tuesday morning, Tuesday afternoon. That's it.

That stance doesn't particular bother me... and, if nothing else, at least he's honest about it. I mean, realistically, a business owner doesn't care if you love his product so long as you keep buying it, right? No promoter in the history of wrestling would take "this is the best show ever!" over asses in seats. If Misawa doesn't have a string of Budokan sellouts, if their style turned fans away, d'you think Baba would've let them keep pushing it as they did because he loved the matches?

 

**

 

I do think there are elements of television writing that can help the product. Of course, we're talking good television writing here... which the WWE can't exactly attract. Nor do I think we can blame them too much if those stories of Vince tearing the sheet up of a Monday morning are true (and who doubts them?). It's also far easier for a guy to play "guest booker" and plan out this great angle over the span of six months leading to a superbly-built Mania main event... a few weeks in and one guy get's injured... or there's a drugs bust along the way... or a myriad of other factors. It's not as if a booker can draft/re-draft this perfectly plotted run of angles like he's writing a novel, then just hand it to the guys to execute and wait for the $$ to start rolling in.

 

Like I said, I'd want some experienced television writers on hand. You need "wrestling people", of course... that's vital. The "writer" can then go over the logistics/order of the whole thing, keep the log of who's done what, etc... make sure it all makes sense from that perspective which "wrestling people" are (generally, one would figure) less liable to do. And, provided they remember that even the best actors in wrestling aren't as good as a soap opera actor... they can bring some fresher ideas to the table.

[JerryvonKramer]

Listening more to this, I think Russo is both a total fucking idiot as evidenced by stuff like this ...

 

Sean Oliver: Aren't you ever scared you're not going to be able to top it next week? When Goldberg and Austin runs out of gas, where do you go then?

 

Vince Russo: That is a good question. Here's the thing that makes me laugh -- and this an "internet" thing -- y'know "hotshotting". There's no such thing as hotshotting because ... when I wrote the television, my thing always was: I don't care what we do this week, next week is going to be even better. I had the confidence in myself that next week's show is going to top this week's show. There was no "hotshotting". A lot of times what they'd call "hotshotting", was when we'd do something like that which would open up the next 12 weeks of programming. That's why you do it.

 

Sean Oliver: But is there a fear that you had that you were going to be giving away too much for free on TV this week?

 

Vince Russo: Never.

 

And also someone who can be occasionally insightful, as he is in the next 2 minutes after the above ...

 

Sean Oliver: Do they do that now? Are the cards too stacked on television?

 

Vince Russo: The 12-month wrestling PPV model is dead. Has been dead for a number of years. Has been dead since UFC took that market away. And the adjustment has been made. The PPV model has to change. To continue doing that now, you're not going to draw any PPV buys, you're just not. ... It probably has to go back to when the WWE just had the big 4. That's probably the best you'll be able to do PPV-wise.

[rvd356]

Listening more to this, I think Russo is both a total fucking idiot as evidenced by stuff like this ...

 

Sean Oliver: Aren't you ever scared you're not going to be able to top it next week? When Goldberg and Austin runs out of gas, where do you go then?

 

Vince Russo: That is a good question. Here's the thing that makes me laugh -- and this an "internet" thing -- y'know "hotshotting". There's no such thing as hotshotting because ... when I wrote the television, my thing always was: I don't care what we do this week, next week is going to be even better. I had the confidence in myself that next week's show is going to top this week's show. There was no "hotshotting". A lot of times what they'd call "hotshotting", was when we'd do something like that which would open up the next 12 weeks of programming. That's why you do it.

 

Sean Oliver: But is there a fear that you had that you were going to be giving away too much for free on TV this week?

 

Vince Russo: Never.

 

And also someone who can be occasionally insightful, as he is in the next 2 minutes after the above ...

 

Sean Oliver: Do they do that now? Are the cards too stacked on television?

 

Vince Russo: The 12-month wrestling PPV model is dead. Has been dead for a number of years. Has been dead since UFC took that market away. And the adjustment has been made. The PPV model has to change. To continue doing that now, you're not going to draw any PPV buys, you're just not. ... It probably has to go back to when the WWE just had the big 4. That's probably the best you'll be able to do PPV-wise.

You don't like the idea of WWE going back to the 'Big 4'? I sure as hell do. Make them all 4 hours & of course you'd have a big gimmick match on each one since the MITB, Chamber, TLC & Cell ppv's would be gone. Maybe it's just nostalgia talking but "those were the days". But yeah it's probably not feasible with 36ish tv shows between each ppv. It would be difficult to stretch things out. I would be inclined to buy the 'Big 4'. For 29.95 though.

 

I mean TNA had all this time between the horrible Genesis ppv & Lockdown and we're getting Bubba Dudley/Jeff Hardy & Stings group/Dungeon of Doom II(think about it, WWE rejects: Taz is Sullivan, Anderson is Beefcake, Devon is Meng, Knox is Kamala, Gallows is Quake & Garrett Bischoff is Kamalas jockstrap) as the double main event.

[JerryvonKramer]

Check out my line in italics there rvd, I think it's a great idea. I was just saying that Russo has moments of being a complete tool, then then moments of talking sense.

[anarchistxx]

You don't need writers the way wrestling is presented today. The wrestler should be the writer. At best he gets five or ten minutes of mic time a week - if he can't think of something to say and some character development in that time, he shouldn't be a wrestler. He isn't cut out for the business. Right now the WWE is full of people who look like actors, sound like actors, aren't at all believable either as ass kickers or as characters. Most of them are overtrained, and that shows up horribly in their work. You are never going to get another Steve Austin or The Rock with the lame stilted promos guys are given these days. TNA from what I've seen is just as bad, generic promos committed by generic guys. Instead of changing their writing staff they should change their personnel and get people with a good look who stand out on interviews.

 

In my opinion if you are going to go with writers and pay them large sums, you might as well go the whole way and turn it into a proper soap opera. Long term storylines, backstage scenes, controversial stuff, pushing buttons, establishing proper characters with proper motives. WWE feuds are booked traditionally e.g. guy goes after title, beat down, authority figure, interference in matches. If you are doing it as simple as that then no way you need these writers. If you're going to employ writers, give them something to work with and make some proper detailed storylines that are as much concentrated on out of ring stuff as they are in ring. That way the matches mean more anyway because they don't have everyone work everyone on a weekly basis.

[jdw]

I'll be contrary and say that modern wrestling with 4-5 hours of prime time TV a week, every week, where it's such a massive part of the revenue stream of the WWE needs Writers.

 

We can semantically call them "bookers", but it's really now well past what bookers once did. Look at Cornette's MX book where he includes examples of his blocking out TV time. Those were still in the tail end of the Squash Match Era, but the Booking Committee was already starting to block out television like it was, you know... Television.

 

We can talk all we want about the good old days where wrestler came up with their own shit... but we're actually full of shit on that.

 

Hogan and Orndorff didn't come up with their turn, and how to do it.

 

Someone in the back did. They came up with Paul turning. They came up with the whole Paul thinking Hulk isn't showing him enough respect, the phone call thing, the Moondogs match, Heenan's involvement, the Studd-Bundy match... the whole fucking thing.

 

The is the equiv of "writing". It's far more than simply booking Valentine to come in to face Backlund, having a few squashes and being the next challenger. Hogan-Orndorff was an actual storyline.

 

It's not just major things. Think back about the MX vs Dudes storyline. In a sense, Cornette was "writing" that whole thing. It's not like absent Corney and subbing in someone else that say the Dudes and the SST could have come up with something like that: they weren't very smart folks at the time.

 

With the importance of TV to revenue now, and literally having to sell Weekly TV even more than 1 house show in MSG a Month, you need to "write" out what people are doing.

 

* * * * *

 

What wrestling doesn't need is shitty writers / bookers / creative people like Russo.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw -- I don't think anyone is disputing the need for someone to layout storylines and angles, it's more on the micro level of giving them scripts -- telling them what to say word-by-word.

 

So Hogan and Orndorff knew how this turn was going to go down, but they were left largely to their own devices in terms of exactly what they were going to say along the way. The problem we're talking about is a lack of autonomy on that level.

 

"Go out there and achieve these objectives" is a very different order from "here's a script, learn that and perform that".

[Loss]

John, I took his post to be more about writing lines in promos than crafting storylines. And there may be cases where bad talkers would find that useful, but I don't think it's a good practice in general.

[El-P]

What wrestling doesn't need is shitty writers / bookers / creative people like Russo.

Most certainly. But has there been a good wrestling *writer* thus far we can talk about ? They've all been pretty shitty.

[rvd356]

Check out my line in italics there rvd, I think it's a great idea. I was just saying that Russo has moments of being a complete tool, then then moments of talking sense.

Ha maybe I'm reading it wrong but it looks like you said he's "both a total fucking idiot" and then just trailed off without listing a good quality.

[JerryvonKramer]

Check out my line in italics there rvd, I think it's a great idea. I was just saying that Russo has moments of being a complete tool, then then moments of talking sense.

Ha maybe I'm reading it wrong but it looks like you said he's "both a total fucking idiot" and then just trailed off without listing a good quality.

 

There's a second line in italics there, it is easy to miss I'll grant you

[Death From Above]

I think it needs writing to a degree, at this point. But certainly not to the degree they take it. It needs a basic structure but what made wrestling work as an entertainment form was "here's what I want for the finish. Here's something else I want you to work in. The rest, you idiots work out for yourselves".

 

The less input workers have into wrestling the less interesting an entertainment subgenre I tend to find it. There's a real inherent lack of creativity in current mainstream American wrestling. The thing that made it unique, to me, was its status as a semi-improvisational art form. That's been lost and as such, it's very hard for me to care about it anymore.

 

Matches that are just totally laid out in every detail in advance, and scripted promos for 10 different guys that all come out of the same writer... there's nothing there, for me. It eliminates too much of what makes wrestling tick on a fundamental level.

[rvd356]

And ya of course they need idea guys because 1 man can't come up with everything, but letting the wrestlers be creative with their characters would sure make the cream of the crop rise & all the utility wrestlers settle into their places.

[jdw]

I actually think word-for-word promos are a bit overblown. Does anyone think a writer is coming up with every word Trip is saying?

 

Are Taker's promos in the past three years scripted out any more or less then his and Paul Bearer's were back in 1992-94?

 

Does anyone really think Cena is a good enough actor to remember 10 straight minutes of promo script without a single break to retape something (like they'd do in his scripted movies), or that he has a more general "script" to work off?

 

* * * * *

 

I'm going to go back to this again. Raw and Smackdown are weekly TV shows. As dictated by the revenue streams, their point is every bit as much to get people to watch the shows as it is to get people to go to house shows or buy the PPVs. 52 weeks a year, no re-runs. 5 hours a week now, not even counting the other shows.

 

260 hours = Raw + Smackdown

13.5 hours = Cheers at it peak season

 

I'm not sold that Pro Wrestlers are so much more gifted creatively than Cheers Actors when it comes to being able to pull shit out of their asses to fill 246.5 *more* hours of TV content a year.

 

Again, I think we overplay just how much of the "script" in terms of words ends up on TV. But we also underplay the importance of "scripting out" 260 hours of Television Content a year where the point is to get people to watch that content this week, and next week, and the week after in an era of diverse viewing and entertainment competition and options.

 

I've got issues with Russo as a person involved in Pro Wrestling, and a lot of his theories are utter bullshit on top of being delusional. So I tend to hate that this discussion springs from a shoot tape of the jerkoff. It poisons a broader discussion.

[jdw]

What wrestling doesn't need is shitty writers / bookers / creative people like Russo.

Most certainly. But has there been a good wrestling *writer* thus far we can talk about ? They've all been pretty shitty.

 

Folks seem to have liked SMW. A vast majority of the was Corny blocking out what he wanted. Corny will never call it "writing", because he's an old school carny wrestling guy who doesn't want to be in the same bucket as Russo.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sold that Pro Wrestlers are so much more gifted creatively than Cheers Actors when it comes to being able to pull shit out of their asses to fill 246.5 *more* hours of TV content a year.

The problem is actually the opposite of this. The Cheers Actors are actors. So when they are given a script, they can make it believable. Wrestlers are not actors. So when they are given a script it comes off like someone reading a script. If you think about most wrestlers, they only ever had one character. Dick Murdoch the wrestler wasn't a million miles away from Dick Murdoch the man. Let Dick Murdoch be Dick Murdoch and say whatever comes into his head and that's going to be more believable and authentic than giving him a script and asking him to recite what you imagine his character might say. Dick Murdoch probably isn't a great actor, he probably doesn't have the required skills to learn that script in a way that makes you believe him.

 

Now the very idea of "a Dick Murdoch" is an anachronism because for the most part the wrestlers' real personalities are never allowed to come out. They sadle them with scripted characters from the moment they debut. The cases you've pointed to are anomalies. It's not Trips and Undertaker you should be looking at but the younger guys. Guys who have made their name in the past 5-10 years.

[Loss]

He did mention Cena also, but yes, I agree that the bigger issue is midcarders. There was the WON item a few years ago that Vince was upset when Edge couldn't cut a serious promo one of the first times they tried to push him on top, because the writers had only ever scripted comedy for him.

[jdw]

Punk was a mid carder who moved up. Shitty on promos?

 

Now granted... I don't jerk off to Punk's promos like most hardcores, and generally don't find his character, promos and storylines interesting at all. But that's a personal taste: he's allegedly great at all of that.

 

Is scomeone "scripting" that out? Probably not in the sense of word-for-word. But Heyman worked with him in ECW. Folks are working with him now on his stuff. They also need to know what he's generally going to do to have people prepared to play off it... and "general" is far too broad. They need to know some specifics so that others are truly prepared to play off it.

 

Dick is an interesting example. I guess my problem with it is that Dick never worked in an era where selling TV Content was important at all. This is like our discussions on Squash matches: the business has changed on what TV means in terms of revenue.

[ohtani's jacket]

If they were just cutting promos then I could buy the improv argument but the way the television is formatted with backstage vignettes, sketches and quarter hour long interview segments they absolutely need writers. Producing all those backstage vignettes without a script isn't a professional way to produce TV. The in-ring promos are almost 100% scripted, I'd say. The top guys might not stick to it, but I'd wager most of them do. It's not that difficult to memorise 10 minutes of dialogue when there's so many breaks and pauses and cues. Most retakes on a film set are for coverage or to get the performance the director wants, not necessarily because an actor can't remember their lines. Wrestlers get a bad rap for their acting but a lot of them are quality performers.