goodhelmet Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 OK, threw this show together in a hurry. If anyone wants to listen in, going live in about 10-15 minutes. Only a 4 match show tonight... Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka (9/20/86) Buddy Rose vs. Marty Jannetty (10/18/86) Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86) Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs. Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86) A nice does of Buddy Rose smothered around the hour long match. http://www.talkshoe.com/talkshoe/web/talkC...6382&cmd=tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Show is up. Awesome night of wrestling with a new #1 match for the set. Join me, Johnny Sorrow, Kris and Childs as we verbally felate Nick Bockwinkel, Buddy Rose and Sherri Martel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Super fun show filled with amazing insight, marking out, rasslin' history, the AWA as "Fast Times At Ridgemont High", and more podcast awesomeness than you can shake Buddy Rose's ass at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Man Hennig v. Bock is gonna run away with number one. I actually don't think anything is even going to be close in the voting. May be the biggest landslide number one in the history of 80's sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 There's only one match that comes even close to it and the level of difficulty on Hennig vs Bock is so much higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 There's only one match that comes even close to it and the level of difficulty on Hennig vs Bock is so much higher. I'm too tired and congested to form a cogent thought right this second, but my point isn't to slam the match. I love the match. My point is that like the AJPW Set the end result really isn't even in doubt and without a "race for one" my interest in that aspect of things is unusually low considering the fact that I worked on this set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 For the sake of your sanity you should focus instead how it's the only match that has consensus and everything else is all over the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 For the sake of your sanity you should focus instead how it's the only match that has consensus and everything else is all over the place. That just makes me angry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 For the sake of your sanity you should focus instead how it's the only match that has consensus and everything else is all over the place. That just makes me angry. Not that the Bock-Hennig love doesn't surprise me as it's been a long-time beloved match, and I do think it is great...but I doubt it would be my number 1. I can think of at least two matches off the top of my head that I enjoy much more. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 The problem with Bock-Hennig for me is I watched a very good 53 minutes and a tremendous 7 minutes. I added those together and it made a really, really great match. However, there was only one match on the set where I felt like I was watching one of the greatest matches I've ever seen bell to bell. This one isn't it. My point is this wasn't awesome bell to bell. It was very good for really long time and had an awesome last couple of minutes. A lot of times that doesn't scream number one for me. Plus, I've touched on my opinion in the DVDVR thread that short matches with great narratives with a tremendous end result are more impressive to me than a 60 minute draw with a great narrative and a tremendous end result. Still, the match is my current #4 and it probably won't be moved around anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Where I disagree with you is that only the last 7 minutes were awesome. It had the best matwork of any match on the set, it built logically to the violent ending and the guys were very consistent in their limb attacks throughout the entire match. Some of the arm work from Hennig and leg work from Bock is as nasty as anything Regal has done. The violent ending meant more than any other feud on the set including Rockers-Rose/Somers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 And for those of us who don't care a whole lot about violence and nastyness, it told an amazing, consistent, wildly challenging story about the old veteran trying to keep up with the young lion but getting more and more frustrated until his true colors started to show despite himself. In reverting to his old self, however, his desperation unleashes something in the younger wrestler that is immediately apparent would be the veteran's eventual downfall. In light of that both wrestlers just try to survive the situation fate has put them in. It's a beautiful story and beautifully executed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I guess cool mat and limb work isn't the be all end all to me. There literally wasn't any point during the first 53 minutes where I felt like I was watching a classic. Not one inkling of a second. Sure, I got the narrative. Bock slowly changing his game because Hennig was such a formidable challenger. The last 7 minutes were great and finished the story off excellently. Ending up making the match really awesome. Still, I thought Rose/Somers vs. Rockers was a much better match that had equally as good execution and narrative. I think the criticisms of that finish are pretty weak to be honest and think it made the match better because the Rockers were able to withstand the beating and kick ass themselves. After that match, Rose/Somers knew they had two tough dudes to deal with now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 And for those of us who don't care a whole lot about violence and nastyness, it told an amazing, consistent, wildly challenging story about the old veteran trying to keep up with the young lion but getting more and more frustrated until his true colors started to show despite himself. In reverting to his old self, however, his desperation unleashes something in the younger wrestler that is immediately apparent would be the veteran's eventual downfall. In light of that both wrestlers just try to survive the situation fate has put them in. It's a beautiful story and beautifully executed. I think you made it more melodramatic than it actually is but I agree with the general statement. Old guy trying to prove he can still go. Young guy trying to prove he can hang with the old man. All good and all adds to the match as a classic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted March 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I guess cool mat and limb work isn't the be all end all to me. There literally wasn't any point during the first 53 minutes where I felt like I was watching a classic. Not one inkling of a second. Sure, I got the narrative. Bock slowly changing his game because Hennig was such a formidable challenger. The last 7 minutes were great and finished the story off excellently. Ending up making the match really awesome. Your #4 ranking is entirely because of the last 7 minutes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I guess cool mat and limb work isn't the be all end all to me. There literally wasn't any point during the first 53 minutes where I felt like I was watching a classic. Not one inkling of a second. Sure, I got the narrative. Bock slowly changing his game because Hennig was such a formidable challenger. The last 7 minutes were great and finished the story off excellently. Ending up making the match really awesome. Your #4 ranking is entirely because of the last 7 minutes? Don't want to speak for Devon, but I don't think that's a fair way of looking at his point. He's not saying the first 53 minutes sucked, or were average, or were middling. He's saying that the first 53 minutes were good and the last seven minutes were great. I can absolutely see how you could have a match in your top five based on that sort of "equation." I actually think one of the STRENGTHS of the match is that it slowly evolves into being a great match. There really isn't an attempt to cram a bunch of great shit into the opening moments as a way of forcing "classic" down your throat, which is what you often see in modern wrestling even in really strong matches. I actually agree with Devon's point that it never completely feels like an out of this world match until the end. I think it's a great match and expected it to finish first, but I remain shocked at how consensus driven it's been, particularly when there isn't one other match on the entire set that seems to have any sort of consensus around it. On my end I have no clue where I will rank it at the end of the day, but it's looking like I will be the low voter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I guess cool mat and limb work isn't the be all end all to me. There literally wasn't any point during the first 53 minutes where I felt like I was watching a classic. Not one inkling of a second. Sure, I got the narrative. Bock slowly changing his game because Hennig was such a formidable challenger. The last 7 minutes were great and finished the story off excellently. Ending up making the match really awesome. Your #4 ranking is entirely because of the last 7 minutes? No, that's not what I meant at all. To be more clear, I thought the last 7 minutes showed that they built really well to the finish. For me, putting together the first 53 minutes (the build), and the last 7 (the finish) told a great narrative and made an excellent match. It's just that the first 9/10 of the match didn't blow me away by any standards other than "this is a really good match with a strong build." It definitely stands out on its own but I never felt I was watching a classic throughout that time. It's not a knock on the work at all either because the work there was really good. I just never got totally invested into the match or felt like I was seeing something I hadn't ever seen before. To throw a few more jabs, I thought there were some middling moments in those 53 minutes that felt like "time filling." This mainly being the ref bump which I really disliked actually. I've heard the arguments for it happening to tease a screwjob but I don't buy it and I felt it pretty much served as a way to fill time. There wasn't a lot of it but it stood out to me. I think if they did this match in 45, I might be calling it number 1. They could have definitely put on a match as good or better in fifteen less minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 A 45 minute draw wouldn't have meant anything, though. Curt going a full hour with the champ meant something. The perception was that a full hour really meant something. Whether or not they could have had "a better match" in 45 is completely not a factor here. Part of what makes the match great are the intangibles, and first among them is "It went an hour!" in the kayfabe sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 A 45 minute draw wouldn't have meant anything, though. Curt going a full hour with the champ meant something. The perception was that a full hour really meant something. Whether or not they could have had "a better match" in 45 is completely not a factor here. Part of what makes the match great are the intangibles, and first among them is "It went an hour!" in the kayfabe sense. Never complain about analysis again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 A 45 minute draw wouldn't have meant anything, though. Curt going a full hour with the champ meant something. The perception was that a full hour really meant something. Whether or not they could have had "a better match" in 45 is completely not a factor here. Part of what makes the match great are the intangibles, and first among them is "It went an hour!" in the kayfabe sense. Never complain about analysis again Nah, I think I'll just do whatever I want to do whenever I want to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 You told me there kid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Kid? Thanks, brother. I only goof around, bust balls, and argue with the people I either like a lot, like you Dylan.....or I think are certifiably insane...and I like them the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted March 31, 2013 Report Share Posted March 31, 2013 Who says I'm not certifiably insane? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted April 27, 2013 Report Share Posted April 27, 2013 Love having Childs on this shows. He always does such a good job at explaining his position on certain facets and bringing up talking points. You filled in the hour wonderfully even though I couldn't stop staring at the people in crowd you were discussing. Buddy Rose & Doug Somers vs. Greg Gagne & Jimmy Snuka (9/20/86) - Good tag match with Snuka looking fine which is rare for me to think so. Probably will end up being around #100 when its all said and done. Buddy Rose vs. Marty Jannetty (10/18/86) - I really liked this match as we got some nasty offense from Buddy and it really built to an exciting finish. this for sure will be in my upper half. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig (11/21/86) - #1 match for me and I can't see anything overtaking it. Let me get two nitpicks out the way first that keep this match out of the discussion for greatest wrestling match I have ever seen. 1. The botched hip toss 2. Referee kicking bocks arms reaching for the ropes in the submission that Sorrow commented on and 3. The crowd leaving during the match which pisses me off to no end. Still I don't know if I have seen 25 better matches in my life. I love body control, interesting mat work and this is one of the best examples of that I have ever seen. The intensity also builds and it does reach a crescendo right at the finish with both competitors a bloody mess. Amazing stuff here. Buddy Rose, Doug Somers & Sherri Martel vs. Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (11/27/86) - Match was fun as fuck and perfect contrast to hour long draw. Sherri looked great in the ring and the 3 way bumps were well executed. Probably 50-70 range overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 KrisZ and Childs together is pretty great. Rose/ Somers vs. Gagne/ Snuka Particularly long extended shine at the start of this one. And while Somers sells the stuff the faces are doing pretty well, it's dull stuff in the main. Later in the match Greg Gagne's slaps on Somers are good. I think in general Greg has declined from his Highflyers days, however. This one didn't do a lot for me. C- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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