ESPN's Grantland

[BillThompson]

Honestly, outside of a small handful of writers Grantland was never better than mediocre and was pretty awful most of the time. Never want anyone to lose their jobs, but I also don't want the guy at the corner bakery to keep making substandard muffins for me to consume. Grantland was a whole lot of substandard muffins with the occasional excellent muffin; it needed to be put out to pasture.

[Benbeeach]

What is the one stop shop pop culture and sports website with nothing but excellent muffins that I should now be reading instead?

[BillThompson]

What is the one stop shop pop culture and sports website with nothing but excellent muffins that I should now be reading instead?

 

Don't really think there is one to be honest. Outside of The Dissolve I don't think there's been a website devoted to any aspect of pop culture that I've read that I found to be worth checking out on a regular basis.

[Childs]

I'm sorry but that just sounds ridiculous, as if everything is beneath you. If you can't find any muffins that suit you, maybe it's not the stand that needs to be put out to pasture.

[The Man in Blak]

I don't know that I'd go as far as Bill, but I would say that the uniqueness of Grantland's content has (unsurprisingly) been overblown in memoriam.

 

Yes, Zach Lowe, Brian Phillips, and Rembert Browne were exemplary writers in their respective fields, but virtually everything else was mostly on-par with anything else you could find on the internet. Bill Barnwell was decent, but he wasn't writing anything that you couldn't find at Football Outsiders (where he was poached from). Jonah Keri was decent, but he wasn't writing anything that you couldn't find at Fangraphs or Baseball Prospectus. Molly Lambert was decent, but she wasn't writing anything that you couldn't find on a dozen other pop culture criticism sites. Steven Hyden was...well, he was mostly writing the exact same stuff at Grantland that he penned at Rolling Stone and Slate. And so on and so forth.

 

Oddly enough, Grantland's most distinctive content might have been their games writing at one point -- Tom Bissell and Tevis Thompson both wrote some provocative stuff there before the former left media to work in the games industry and the latter left the site over the Dr. V debacle (which has also mysteriously vanished from all of these glowing post-mortems of the site).

 

However you may feel about the writing that was there, I think Grantland and Simmons both exemplify the shift in modern media consumption. People don't follow mastheads anymore - if they follow anything at all, they follow people and Simmons, as mediocre as he may be as a writer, has built up enough cultural cachet to fuel an audience that is willing to follow him wherever he goes. ESPN tried to capitalize on that audience with Grantland (and, to a lesser extent, Page 2 before that), but they did it in a distinctly "old media" way and ended up with an empty husk of a site that stopped moving the needle the moment that Simmons was gone.

 

EDIT: Also, I hope it goes without saying that I feel like their wrestling content could be charitably described as "the drizzling shits."

[Childs]

I don't know that I'd go as far as Bill, but I would say that the uniqueness of Grantland's content has (unsurprisingly) been overblown in memoriam.

 

I'm more positive on the site than you overall, but I agree about the eulogies whitewashing the flawed and unremarkable aspects of it. As you say, that's what eulogies are wont to do.

[jdw]

I thought Rembert was spotty. I'd replace him with Wesley Morris as more focused and more consistent.

 

Phillips was up-and-down. His sumo thing was highly praised, but it struck me as taking an interesting topic and injecting himself into it rather than focusing on the topic.

 

I thought Barnwell was solid, especially when he stuck to football. Wouldn't disagree with the comment about FO, though might argue with the Rob Neyer analogy. Rob wasn't the best stathead writer of his peak era, and at times was pretty pedestrian. But he did have a big setting to write in, and ended up being a gateway for a lot of people to get into sabermetrics who missed James' peak the prior decade in print format. I think a lot of us knocked Rob for being pedestrian often, but he did play an important role, was really pretty earnest about his efforts, and stayed level headed more than most would. I think Bill was kinda-sorts the same thing. Big soapbox at Grantland relative to FO, regardless of how long folks have been checking out FO. He was earnest in what he did, and avoided being a dick / heatseeker in what he did. I think by the off season and the start of this, he had shed a lot of the Simmons influence in his writing, and a good deal of the old DEAN~! influence as well. Felt like he was growing, and I was/am looking forward to see how he does in the future.

 

That said...

 

I think Mays was the better NFL "writer" in terms of his writing skill, and being able to put together a story/piece. But that was also one of the things that I liked about Grantland: they had space for both Mays and Barnwell to be writing about the NFL in different ways.

[elliott]

We need to focus on what is really important and that is Zach Lowe articles and podcasts. Where and When can I get them?

 

I got these cheesburgers man. I just need a little ZachLowe.

[Childs]

Phillips was up-and-down. His sumo thing was highly praised, but it struck me as taking an interesting topic and injecting himself into it rather than focusing on the topic.

 

 

Among Phillips' big flight-of-fancy features, I think I preferred the Iditarod one to the sumo.

 

As for Zach, I'm guessing he's one of the guys ESPN will continue using on its existing platforms? I don't see why they wouldn't as long as he's under contract.

[Benbeeach]

Wondering what the great mainstream website with wrestling content is? Not that Grantland was it by any means, but were the Rolling Stone Okada interviews that much better? (although hearing Rosenberg opines of the smart, but not THAT SMART wrestling fan was always fun)

What'd you even say was Rembert's genre? One article he's on the plane with Obama, the next he defines the word "swoll" (as a black man, it almost brought a tear to my eye) He was all over the place, and it was excellent. Sites where Zach Lowe, Wesley Morris, Pappademas, Barnwell (and Mays because one without the other wasn't exactly whole) and Rafe Bartholomew, Jonathan Abrams, Greenwald and Ryan all exist in one cohesive place, just DON'T EXIST. Never really have, not sure when they will again.

To just dismiss it as "well it was so-so a lot of the time" is to completely sell it and what it did short.
...no one forced you to read the Shea Sorrano Articles. Jason Concepcion and Amos Barshad were RIGHT THERE.

[BillThompson]

I'm sorry but that just sounds ridiculous, as if everything is beneath you. If you can't find any muffins that suit you, maybe it's not the stand that needs to be put out to pasture.

 

How is everything beneath me if I said they had some excellent stuff, but the majority was trash? We shouldn't celebrate mediocrity in journalism, but with Grantland it seems we are all too willing to do as such. For every Keri or Morris there were ten Shoemaker's or Simmons' whose output was below what most would consider quality journalism. The whole thing was a vanity project for Simmons, and with few exceptions it never graduated beyond that level.

[Childs]

 

 

What is the one stop shop pop culture and sports website with nothing but excellent muffins that I should now be reading instead?

Don't really think there is one to be honest. Outside of The Dissolve I don't think there's been a website devoted to any aspect of pop culture that I've read that I found to be worth checking out on a regular basis.

With this quote, you seem to suggest nothing is good enough for you. That's such an extreme stance that it renders your criticism of Grantland meaningless.

[BillThompson]

 

 

What is the one stop shop pop culture and sports website with nothing but excellent muffins that I should now be reading instead?

Don't really think there is one to be honest. Outside of The Dissolve I don't think there's been a website devoted to any aspect of pop culture that I've read that I found to be worth checking out on a regular basis.

With this quote, you seem to suggest nothing is good enough for you. That's such an extreme stance that it renders your criticism of Grantland meaningless.

 

 

Wasn't my intention; but I worded that poorly. It's not that there isn't anything good enough for me, it's that the talented writers are spread out across many different sites so there really isn't a one stop shop pop culture and sports website that is mainly excellent like Ben was asking about. The Dissolve is the closest I've ever read to a site with nothing but extremely talented writers, but they were strictly movies and rarely touched on other aspects of pop culture.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

We need to focus on what is really important and that is Zach Lowe articles and podcasts. Where and When can I get them?

 

I got these cheesburgers man. I just need a little ZachLowe.

 

So much this. I don't care if he starts his own page on GeoCities or MySpace, Zach Lowe needs to be writing. Grantland can re-launch tomorrow with nothing but reality TV fantasy league pieces and posts by Shoemaker hourly about the goddman reality era in wrestling, if it means getting Zach Lowe back to work, I'd support it.

[jdw]

I think it's telling how much ESPN is going to use most of these guys that Zach hasn't had anything published. He already had a column in mind for Tuesday that he mentioned on twitter.

 

Keri is fine, because he already was getting some ESPN run. The rest will only see the light of day if they've already resigned with ESPN. My guess is that Lowe is in the same boat as Morris and Rembert and Greenwald: contract is about to expire, and he's been shopping around. He hasn't announced anything yet as he hasn't made up his mind.

 

I read that a little as Zach isn't quite as hip to the cutthroat realities of the business as Morris and Rembert are i.e. line up your gigs and get out of Dodge when the shooting starts. On Greenwald's side, my guess is that he had a vibe as soon as Simmons left that ESPN wasn't going to be in the pop culture side for the long haul. He was smart enough to cash his chips on a book deal, and whatever regular writing gig he appears to have lined up.

[funkdoc]

glad someone brought up the dr. v thing because that stuff puts me on lifetilt and i didnt wanna shit up the forum with my rants on it

 

i'm closer to bill on this one prob, but i was a huge simmons fan back in the boston sports guy days so his schtick got extra tired to me and i couldn't avoid how many trends of his writing were common in the rest of the site. the pop-culture stuff, which doesn't suit guys like barnwell...the writer self-insertion into potentially fascinating pieces (the precise undoing of the dr. v article, among other examples)...etc.

 

i'm just not the target audience for that kind of site though, and i get why ppl dug it

 

EDIT: oh yeah, gonna dispute the barnwell comment a bit. it's funny, back when he was on FO i thought he was their clear weak link, but holy shit that site has been scraping the bottom of the barrel ever since he left. a bunch of #HotTakes hacks there now, and the singularly awful scott kacsmar - far cry from the mid-late 2000s when they had the best stable of football writers anywhere.

[Childs]

I think it's telling how much ESPN is going to use most of these guys that Zach hasn't had anything published. He already had a column in mind for Tuesday that he mentioned on twitter.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily read anything into that. Grantland has only been dead five days. I think ESPN will make a strong push to keep Lowe, and honestly, it's probably still the best platform for him.

 

I've heard Keri, by contrast, is actively seeking a new gig.

[jdw]

Zach both could head off to Time Warner where he has multiple platforms to work on. They have NBA.com and NBA TV for years to come, so writing for NBA.com would be easy. They even have those goofy The Starters guys doing podcasts, having a blog, having their own daily show... that thing employees 4 guys in front of the camera, and lord knows how many behind, which is mind numbing. There's Bleacher Report. Being in the Time Warner family means he's close to Simmons at HBO, depending on what Bill has planned for future ventures.

 

Sports Illustrated got spun off from Time Warner as a piece of Time Inc. They do seem to be putting some effort into the website, even if I hate the redesign. But it's Old Media, and I'm not sure if Zach would want to tie his horse to that.

 

My guess is that it's Time Warner vs ESPN. It's not terribly easy to sign up with ESPN at a time when (i) they've just killed your best job ever, and (ii) they're going through a multi-year reduction in force. That reduction in force comes just two years after the last one ESPN went through: the one in 2013 that killed off jobs such as Howie Schwab's that everyone thought was cold blooded. Business is business, and one tends to go where there is the most money. But Lowe has seen a fair amount of ESPN cold hearted shit in his 4 years there that might make him take a pause. We'll see.

 

Edit: Keri strikes me as one who might go the Time Warner/TBS or Fox route since they both have baseball coverage. He also could easily drop into MLB.com imbed for a long haul.

[Lust Hogan]

I liked Bill Simmons until he watched The Wire. Once he did that it was in EVERY column....

[jdw]

I liked Bill Simmons until he watched The Wire. Once he did that it was in EVERY column....

 

You missed the earlier ones where Midnight Run was in every column.

 

We've talked about Bill a lot in the earlier parts of this thread. As a columnist, Bill peaked before he ever had a peak. He never was consistently strong. He had long stretches of being "fun" if you were into his type of stuff, lesser stretches of it didn't tickle your fancy but he didn't annoy you, and next to no stretches if he annoyed you.

 

I'd have to go back and look at the columns I pointed to early in the thread, several years back, as examples of when he could still focus and deliver something useful. The only one that I remember off the top of my head was the Duncan pieces in the 2013 playoffs:

 

http://grantland.com/features/tim-duncan-part-1

 

http://grantland.com/features/tim-duncan-part-2

 

"Career Arc" became one of the many cliches run into the ground at Grantland, but I thought that was a good one. It's not a masters thesis on Timmy, but it's a good overview, it's a good reference source to look back at, and it drops in some good forgotten stuff that even someone like me who has watch his entire career with interest has forgotten over time. Someone like Will probably would want more from it, because there is so much more than can be said about Tim and the Spurs in the period that was covered. But I also suspect Will would find it a pretty fair and positive and loving summary of Tim's career, and the ups-and-downs-and-ups of the period (missing of course the finish of 2013, the triumph of 2014, and the annoyance of the first round draw with the Clippers in 2015). It's not GREAT~! but it presents Timmy and the team in a very accessible way to pull folks into looking at him some more. Which is among Bill's better skills.

 

Of course I look down the archives and find three columns later:

 

The NBA’s Midnight Run: Summer Moves, Part 1

The NBA’s Midnight Run: Summer Moves, Part 2

 

So... yeah... he could churn out Good Simmons with Shit Simmons really quick.

 

Looking around the 2013 archive, maybe the T-Mac piece and the "Daring to Ask the PED Question" were others that I pointed to.

 

I think The Basketball Book is probably the best representation of his writing, both in terms of things that he does best, things that he does poorly, along with his ability to pull in stuff long forgotten and present them to an audience of readers that otherwise wouldn't go down those rabbit holes. Biases o' plenty, but when one sees Jabbar #3, Magic above Bird, and things like that... even with all the biases there are some subjective decisions he makes that run counter to them.

 

So perhaps that's the peak as a "writer", one that isn't really as a columnist.

[Childs]

I also think Bill would readily acknowledge his writing went downhill in recent years, when he was spread thinner with running the web site and doing TV. And yeah, he was spotty even before that. I'd be surprised if we see him return to a heavy writing schedule.

 

I wrote a profile of him back in '05, and even then, he was talking about ending his column. He reminds me a little of Kornheiser, who always admitted he quit doing ambitious writing because he grew weary of the difficulty.

[supremebve]

Bill Simmons' first HBO documentary...

 

ANDRE THE GIANT.

[...TG]

Bill Simmons' first HBO documentary...

 

ANDRE THE GIANT.

 

Interesting to see how much WWE works with him. Might be tricky politics given their relationship with ESPN. But that might be a good thing, may make Bill (or whoever is directing this thing) look elsewhere and make it less US-centric.

[Childs]

 

Bill Simmons' first HBO documentary...

 

ANDRE THE GIANT.

 

Interesting to see how much WWE works with him. Might be tricky politics given their relationship with ESPN. But that might be a good thing, may make Bill (or whoever is directing this thing) look elsewhere and make it less US-centric.

 

 

BTW, this was apparently just a rumor.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Who needs Grantland when you have our own Childs cranking out pieces like this:

 

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/nfl/bs-sp-aaron-maybin-nfl-artist-20151106-story.html

 

Nice work.