If not Backlund who?

[JerryvonKramer]

Wasn't it in the Larry Matysik thread that we were talking about St. Louis being "the Harvard" of wrestling?

 

I think what's more likely is that holding that belt or main eventing there was like "the Sam Muchnick seal of approval" and the other promoters really respected his opinions on workers.

 

Something like that.

 

There seems to be a direct 1:1 relation between guys who main evented St. Louis and smart fan favourites of that era.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Garea was too old for what they wanted as well.

Well, he was only three years older than Backlund.

[KrisZ]

I'll admit I didn't look it up so that is kinda surprising to me. He had been working for VJM since 1972 so he had been around there a while.

[Matt D]

- and I say this as someone who used to be viscerally anti-Backlund in terms of trotting out all the standard excuses (the title drew on it's own, the heels drew, the undercard support propped him up longer than he would have gone on his own, other bullshit, et.).

Have we done a note about "how wrong we were?"

[JerryvonKramer]

Going through various reference books here looking for guys who were active in the late 70s with the right sort of age profile and there really aren't many who we haven't already mentioned. I've tried to filter out guys who would have definitely been perceived as "too southern".

 

Austin Idol - not sure if was actually around in 1977. Would have been totally unknown in New York, but he had a look.

 

Leroy Brown - big black guy who was a face in the late 70s, put on some weight and later became one half of the Zambouie Express. Not a lot of info on him, but he was around.

 

Tiger Conway Jr. - I assume everyone knows him. Perhaps a bit lightweight for the Backlund role.

 

Fred Curry - son of Wild Bill Curry, reputedly could do 15 dropkicks in 10 seconds. More of a high-flyer. Would have been 34 in 1977.

 

Larry Hennig - 41 in 1977 but over as a face for both WWF and AWA in his time. Couldn't see him being more than an interim champ but he would have been reasonably famous at that time.

 

Jose Lothario - while he had no history of working up north, he could have been positioned as an ethnic-type champ. What was New York's Mexican population at that time? Bit on the old side though, 43 in 77.

 

Joe Malenko - he debuted in 1977. If the whole idea with Backlund is that Vince Sr was trying to prove a point that his champ could have been "anyone", then Mr. Charisma here might have been a fit. He was 22 in 77. No idea where he actually was at that time. If we're going for guys as young as 22 though, no reason to believe that he'd have picked someone like this over DiBiase.

 

Earl Maynard - can't seem to find a date of birth for this chap, but he won the Masters Mr America in 1977. He was basically a bodybuilder who who wrestled in LA tagging with Rocky Johnson. Seems like he worked for Vince Sr in the late 60s. Now this is a bit of fantasy booking but wouldn't Maynard vs. Billy Graham been quite a money angle in 77-8? A genuine Mr. Universe takes on someone who *thinks* he's a superstar? Stranger things have happened in wrestling.

 

Steve O - If we're considering Jim Brunzell and Greg, I guess we have to consider Steve O. I hate Steve O.

 

Johnny Powers - would have certainly been known to the WWWF audience after his run-ins with Bruno and at only 34 would have been in decent shape. Would have involved buying him out though and that's not typically the way Vince Sr rolled.

 

Tito Santana - he debuted that year, if Rick Martel is on the table, then why not Tito? Arguably had greater fire than Backlund.

 

Alexis Smirnoff - 30 in 1977. Another LA guy, reputedly in the mould of Ivan Koloff. Heel transitional champ? Talking very long shots here.

 

Ray Stevens - 42 in 77, and the legendary team with Bock was about to breakup with Stevens turning face. Another long shot.

 

Jay Youngblood - 22 in 77. Can't see any reason to go for him over Steamboat, but he was around with 2 years of experience.

 

-----

 

Pretty poor return all in all. As far as I can see there aren't many compelling alternatives to Backlund.

[goc]

The most likely answer is someone we probably wouldn't think of. If Backlund hadn't been the guy chosen, would his career have been memorable enough for him to get thrown into a discussion like this?

[Superstar Sleeze]

If Backlund doesn't get picked, isnt he a shoe-in to be the heir Verne's position as the babyface of the AWA and be Bock's foil from about 77-82?I will admit I know absolutely nothing about the AWA pre-1982, but given Verne's love for amateur's reps and Backlund's Minnesota origins you would have to imagine that Backlund would at least get a serious run at Bock's title if not a 2 year run with the strap.

 

Now more importantly, did Backlund/Bockwinkel happen and does exist on tape because I just done gone gave myself a raging wrestling mental boner.

[KrisZ]

Backlund definitely would've been the AWA champ by 1980 if he stayed.

[Dylan Waco]

Backlund definitely would've been the AWA champ by 1980 if he stayed.

I'm not sure there is any real reason to believe this.

 

Does he fit the mold of what Verne liked? Yes. But I actually don't know that he was a babyface that Verne would have promoted well. When I look at babyfaces Verne had success with during the period between the late 70's and mid 80's I don't know where exactly Bob fits - he didn't have the looks of Martel (who was also a flashier worker), he obviously wasn't Hogan, he wasn't an old vet/legend like Mad Dog, Crusher or even the Baron, he didn't have the name Hennig (who frankly didn't get hot as a face until the company was into decline), and while you can certainly find similarities between him and The High Flyers I think there was a pretty big difference in terms of style. I do think Verne would have tried to push Bob and I think Bob was a much better package than Chris Taylor or Brad Rheingans, but I'm not at all certain that Verne would have known how to package him effectively.

[Dylan Waco]

Joe Malenko - he debuted in 1977. If the whole idea with Backlund is that Vince Sr was trying to prove a point that his champ could have been "anyone", then Mr. Charisma here might have been a fit. He was 22 in 77. No idea where he actually was at that time. If we're going for guys as young as 22 though, no reason to believe that he'd have picked someone like this over DiBiase.

 

Johnny Powers - would have certainly been known to the WWWF audience after his run-ins with Bruno and at only 34 would have been in decent shape. Would have involved buying him out though and that's not typically the way Vince Sr rolled.

 

Tito Santana - he debuted that year, if Rick Martel is on the table, then why not Tito? Arguably had greater fire than Backlund.

Hacked out a lot of those as I think age, location, et explain why they are non-starters.

 

I think Malenko is an obvious non-starter to, but I want to point that there is great reason to believe people would have been higher on Ted than Joe at that point. Dibiase was already regarded as very charismatic and a strong prospect by that point. Was he a major star? Not really, but he was someone on the radar. Too my knowledge Joe wasn't.

 

Powers was/is considered a head case by many and hard to deal with. I don't think he would have had any chance. I've also heard he had some heat with Bruno thought that may be BS. In any event this was around the time that Powers went full blown outlaw with the IWA - no way in hell he was getting brought in at that point.

 

Martel is (theoretically) on the table and not Tito, because Martel was already something of a star with a lot of experience. He was working upper mid-card many places by that point, including big towns like Houston and Dallas. He was much more established then Tito. Again Martel was an "old" twenty.

[jdw]

I remember digging Backlund when I was a kid. The Philly crowds started shitting on him at the Spectrum but I wasn't actually going to shows back then and wasn't aware of that until later. The deal was that before Hogan showed up we had all become Snuka fans. He was the fucking man, and Backlund sorta took a back seat even though he was the Champ.

Couple of things here:

 

"The fans in Philly turned on Bob" is something that happened far later than folks like to recall. I'd have to go back through my thread, but it always was amazing to find a later match where he was still over. It's a bit like the old joint claims:

 

- "Backlund never was over after the Snuka feud because Snuka was more cool"

 

"Wait... what about this Backlund-Rose match two months later where Backlund was SUPER OVER against someone who wasn't exactly a massive star in the WWF?"

 

- "Er... what I mean is... Backlund was never over again after crying when Graham smashed his belt. That's the ticket!"

 

"Wait... what about the Muraco feud in 1983 and the first Slaughter match after the riding crop angle? Super fucking over Backlund."

 

- "Um... it was Philly where he died!"

 

After pointing out Philly matches in 1983, I seem to recall that it shifted over to Boston being where he died. Hard to keep track of the bullshit after a while.

 

Anyway...

 

The point at which Backlund took a back seat to Snuka is hard to tell. Perhaps during the Snuka-Muraco feud. Which took place in MSG on 7/31/83, 8/27/83 and 10/17/83... while Bob had a pair of matches against the Animal and one against The Masked Superstar. They're also at the tail end of his run as champ, after having the belt for five straight years.

 

If that's truly when Backlund ran out of steam, that's actually a credit to Backlund, not a knock.

[jdw]

Muraco's problem was that he took sometimes up to 6 months a year to stay in Hawaii. VJM wasn't going for that.

 

Snuka was the worst thing to happen to Backlund because he totally eclipsed him in popularity. Backlund was over for sure but Snuka was another level. It was kinda like Hogan/Warrior in a way. Backlund's best town was NYC and JS is right if you watch the Spectrum shows you see Backlund's popularity visibly wane in 83-84.

Again, this is 1983-84. He won the title in 2/78. He dropped it in 12/83. So setting aside 1984 as obviously being past his time, we have a window in 1983 where he was eclipsed?

[jdw]

Now more importantly, did Backlund/Bockwinkel happen and does exist on tape because I just done gone gave myself a raging wrestling mental boner.

They did a title vs title in Toronto:

 

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/mlg70s.htm

 

Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - March 25, 1979

WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought AWA World Champion Nick Bockwinkel to a double count-out at 39:10 when both men began brawling on the floor

Which is interesting as it appears to be Backlund's first appearance at MLG. And a couple of months later had this that everyone wishes was on top:

 

Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - July 15, 1979

WWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated NWA US Champion Ric Flair via count-out at 23:39

[jdw]

If you're asking whether someone else could have been a 5 year anchor at that time, other than Bruno... no one could have.

 

If you're asking whether someone could have pulled off a year or so as a Face Champ until they found someone, then Dusty could have. I don't see Dusty holding things together for 5 years... he just didn't have the feel of an NY Champ (Bruno to Pedro to Bruno to Bob to Hogan). But he certainly could have popped for a while.

 

The reason I don't see Dusty sustaining it for five years on top is that part of what made him work was often chasing rather than anchoring. Put the belt on him for 5 years (or even 1+1+1+1 with some breaks of 3 months in there) would take away from what he tended to play best.

 

John

I don't disagree with what you have to say about Dusty, but I'm not sure I see how Bob fits in with the either three NY champs better than Dusty would in paper or in practice. You've watched a lot more Backlund than I have, or at least you've watched it a lot more closely than I have, but I don't see the obvious connection

 

I think Dusty would have been fine for a year. He just doesn't play Endless Champion as a character like Bruno and Pedro and Bob and Hogan did. Parts of Dusty's character were "the chase" and "getting screwed". Those four Endless Champs didn't chase at all. They might get screwed on some level, but never out of the belt until the end of their runs. Granted, Hogan started getting screwed, but the first was to go off to do his movie, and the Taker one was the PPV change in the business.

 

Have Dusty hold the belt for 5 straight years... he's not Dusty anymore, and it's not a lock that all his normal stuff would fly. Dusty himself seemed to get this: he booked Heel Champs far more than the WWF did.

[jdw]

This is slowly turning into a mild pet peeve of mine (is there such a thing?), but I really don't like the idea of calling St. Louis a territory. They had no loop and didn't even run weekly. It just seems like the wrong word.

Didn't they defend the belt in the Kansas City territory too? Or no? I need to get that book. I have held off mostly after following Scott Teal on Facebook and seeing his repellent politics. Should get over it....

 

I imagine my politics are insane to most people, as mutualism is not exactly well revered by anyone other than mutualists. Still, I cannot imagine what Teal's politics are like and prefer not to know, though you have piqued my interests....

 

Quite far to the right.

[jdw]

A little birdie messaged me about this

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20000303124813/....com/tape70.htm

 

At the bottom John McAdam had this to say in reference to Dibiase.

 

I assure you, Dibiase would have been a hell of a lot more effective as the "non-ethnic whitey" champ the WWF wanted than Bob Backlund. The WWF babyface corps was driven by ethnicism / racism in the 70's, so if you're going to pick a guy based around those parameters, be smart and make Dibiase, who's interviews, ringwork, and charisma blew Backlund's away, your titleholder.

 

So yeah...Just felt like tossing this into the mix.

McAdam, or his socko, was in the Classics thread pushing Ted as the Other Bob.

 

I'll admit up front that there's a lot more Ted in the WWF that I need to watch. But from what I have watched, which was largely against Patterson, is that Ted was more "Dean Malenko" than Bruno/Pedro. In the sense of Ted working in his own work, and not playing strongly to the crowd. It was a strong, drastic contrast from Backlund in the WWF at the moment. A lot of the stuff we thought was "goofy" about Bob was actually playing to the crowd. It was goofy, it was theatrical, but it's also interesting to note how many of those things got reactions from the crowd, or kept them in the match.

 

Ted... was kind of Boring Dory relative to a typical WWF Face being Terry-ish in the sense of Theatrical.

 

I don't think that in any way it was Ted being told to tone it down to not show up Backlund. Freaking Putski was 100% about playing to the crowd as a face. Pedro when he came back at IC champ could lay around fifth of gin selling, but when it came time for the Fiery Pedro Comeback, he's play his ass off to the crowd. When Patterson turned, he was doing it. Midcarders, prelimers... you can see various doing it. Ted... didn't really seem to play to the fans in those same ways, and in turn not connect quite as well.

 

Ted was a good worker, and pretty smart. Admittedly, this board is a place where folks tend to believe Ted wasn't as GREAT~! as he was pimped up to be in the 80s... but still tend to agree he was good and smart. Perhaps he would have learned it. But then again, I've thought he was more vanilla as a face elsewhere compared to his heel persona having more theatrics.

[khawk20]

Plus, remember: Vince Sr. wanted a "Jack Brisco type," a handsome clean cut guy with an amateur wrestling background. That's how he got Backlund, he was someone who fit the mold plus he wasn't in demand. Of those listed so far, I'm not sure anyone fits other than maybe Keirn, and I can't remember if he actually did amateur wrestling. Roop didn't have the look they wanted, not then and not even when he was younger.

The previously-mentioned Jim Brunzell would be my pick based on this.

[JerryvonKramer]

As probably Ted's biggest fan on these boards, I've always maintained that Ted is a really bland face. Nothing I've seen of his in MSW challenges that. I'm not sure he ever got that much better as a face. 86 DiBiase is only marginally more firey than 79 DiBiase (and mostly when he had good storyline reasons to be).

 

His biggest moments a babyface all stem come from the turn when he was challenging Flair and the famous angle with Murdoch. Anyone was going to get a big sympathetic reaction there. But I'm not sure he was that effective as a face after that angle was over.

 

I think that turn -- as great as it is, and it is one of the all-time great turns -- is kind of an "artificial turn". It didn't happen because fans were gagging to cheer Ted, it happened as a neat way to create a new headline face for Watts.

 

This is important though because Ted got over and connected with the fans primarily as a heel. The cheers for the loaded glove, for example, were in a sense historical cheers for a guy they use to love to hate who they now like because he's been beaten to a pulp by Murdoch.

 

"Boring Dory" is not an exaggeration in my view. Ted's undoubted charisma only seems to come out when he's working heel. This was even true when he was a manager. Remember him with the Steiners?

[Johnny Sorrow]

I remember digging Backlund when I was a kid. The Philly crowds started shitting on him at the Spectrum but I wasn't actually going to shows back then and wasn't aware of that until later. The deal was that before Hogan showed up we had all become Snuka fans. He was the fucking man, and Backlund sorta took a back seat even though he was the Champ.

Couple of things here:

 

"The fans in Philly turned on Bob" is something that happened far later than folks like to recall. I'd have to go back through my thread, but it always was amazing to find a later match where he was still over. It's a bit like the old joint claims:

 

- "Backlund never was over after the Snuka feud because Snuka was more cool"

 

"Wait... what about this Backlund-Rose match two months later where Backlund was SUPER OVER against someone who wasn't exactly a massive star in the WWF?"

 

- "Er... what I mean is... Backlund was never over again after crying when Graham smashed his belt. That's the ticket!"

 

"Wait... what about the Muraco feud in 1983 and the first Slaughter match after the riding crop angle? Super fucking over Backlund."

 

- "Um... it was Philly where he died!"

 

After pointing out Philly matches in 1983, I seem to recall that it shifted over to Boston being where he died. Hard to keep track of the bullshit after a while.

 

Anyway...

 

The point at which Backlund took a back seat to Snuka is hard to tell. Perhaps during the Snuka-Muraco feud. Which took place in MSG on 7/31/83, 8/27/83 and 10/17/83... while Bob had a pair of matches against the Animal and one against The Masked Superstar. They're also at the tail end of his run as champ, after having the belt for five straight years.

 

If that's truly when Backlund ran out of steam, that's actually a credit to Backlund, not a knock.

 

I should have said, I'm talking about 83. My pals and I weren't going to shows then, I was only 12-13. We just watched the TV. And we never thought Backlund was dead. I just recall reading later that Philly was the place where "Howdy Doody" got hot as a crowd chant. And as far as Snuka eclipsing him, yeah it was around the time he turned face against Albano and the following Muraco feud. And I'm going on how me and my pals felt as kids. I'm not speaking for fandom at large.

[JerryvonKramer]

Plus, remember: Vince Sr. wanted a "Jack Brisco type," a handsome clean cut guy with an amateur wrestling background. That's how he got Backlund, he was someone who fit the mold plus he wasn't in demand. Of those listed so far, I'm not sure anyone fits other than maybe Keirn, and I can't remember if he actually did amateur wrestling. Roop didn't have the look they wanted, not then and not even when he was younger.

The previously-mentioned Jim Brunzell would be my pick based on this.

 

My only query with Brunzell is would he have been considered more of a cruiserweight in that timeframe?

 

This may seem like a really minor point, but a lot of the champions were around the 240-245lb mark. Backlund was 241lb, Flair 243lb, Race 245lb, Bockwinkel 241lb, Dory was 240lb.

 

Savage at 237lb in 1988 was considered small.

 

Brunzell was 235lb. Would that have been a real factor that would have been considered? Bruno was 265, Stan Stasiak 270lb, Graham 275lb, Ivan Koloff 298lb.

 

The only smaller guy they'd had since Buddy Rogers in 1963 was Pedro. 5-6lbs might not seem like a lot, but coupled with Brunzell's highflying style I wonder if he wouldn't have been perceived as a heavyweight champ.

 

Any thoughts?

[Dylan Waco]

Brunzell was 6'2 and had been working heavyweights. He was never really booked as a light heavyweight in the AWA that I can remember even though he was a "High Flyer."

[jdw]

I should have said, I'm talking about 83. My pals and I weren't going to shows then, I was only 12-13. We just watched the TV. And we never thought Backlund was dead. I just recall reading later that Philly was the place where "Howdy Doody" got hot as a crowd chant. And as far as Snuka eclipsing him, yeah it was around the time he turned face against Albano and the following Muraco feud. And I'm going on how me and my pals felt as kids. I'm not speaking for fandom at large.

Understood. Just wanted to get across that there was a fair amount of time between when Snuka turned (11/22/82 was the first face match) and the Muraco feud (angle aired 6/18/83). Which was almost a full year after the Backlund-Snuka ended in MSG, though it went longer around the horn.

[Johnny Sorrow]

This got me thinking. Backlund always had a look of a typical wrestler most of his reign. Normal trunks, a mop of hair on his head...but right around 83 when Vince Jr. was totally running things, he started wearing an amateur singlet and shaved his head to look like a collegiate wrestler. Was that Vince's attempt to make a "character look" or gimmick for Backlund?

 

Oh, and the magazines sure knew Snuka was hot. It felt like every mag, especially the non Apter ones had a bloody Snuka on the cover almost monthly.

[Bix]

This got me thinking. Backlund always had a look of a typical wrestler most of his reign. Normal trunks, a mop of hair on his head...but right around 83 when Vince Jr. was totally running things, he started wearing an amateur singlet and shaved his head to look like a collegiate wrestler. Was that Vince's attempt to make a "character look" or gimmick for Backlund?

No, both Vinces hated it because the look that helped him get the belt was gone. Switching to Karl Gotch style bodyweighht exercises and calisthenics from weight training made his physique less impressive and I guess the rest came from there.

[Johnny Sorrow]

So Backlund decided to go with that look? That's interesting.

 

He chose to go from this

 

to this

 

 

It always seemed like it was Vince jr. wanting to give Bob a character, ie: collegiate guy. Was Bob himself trying to tweak his look and character? I mean besides the change in physique.