Titans of Wrestling #1

[adamsfan]

Hey brick.....

 

Sorry, no Boston Garden taped matches before May of 1985, In May, WWF started broadcasting the monthly cards on the New England Sports Network ( NESN) much like the MSG network had. Prior to this, only occasional clips of the previous month were shown during the promos for the Boston house shows. I remember taping these promos monthly, including the clip finish of the intercontinental title change between Santana and Muraco in 1984 ,as well as a snuka plancha over the top rope onto muraco hyping their steel cage blow off match for the next boston card. Damn,,,, I wish i saved those.

[bradhindsight]

After I started the first ToW, I quickly stopped listening until I ordered the discs from James and watched the matches in advance. I finished Valentine/Backlund the other night (just listened to that piece this afternoon on the show) with the following stips:

 

- It was my first time watching the match

 

- While I obviously knew Backlund wasn't dropping the belt, I did not know it was a 60-minute draw going in

 

- I was familiar enough with Bob's past work to not be totally aghast at the repeated headlocks and mat work through the first 30-40 minutes

 

- It wrapped around 1am after a long Friday (admittedly this is like mid-afternoon for Parv The Night Owl) but I did not nod off!

 

I told Chad on Sat morning I went ***3/4 here - definitely wasn't going four stars but, as Parv describes on the show, you do feel satisfied at the finish after sitting through the beginning. I thought about halfway through Backlund had a nice shine sequence and I bought it (after the drop kick) as a possible finish before they went right back to trading holds. It was a decent multitasking match too as I fired off a couple emails while I watched (like Parv, I don't like watching on my laptop). I really liked Valentine's work and thought he did do a bunch of little things to make his work, and the match, stand out. Loved when he finally slapped the figure-four on an exhausted Backlund after the bell. Great cap to the match. I do want to watch it again but I completely understand where James was going with diminishing returns on your eventual feeling of the match. I was happy to hear both you guys were at ***1/2 (w/ James noting he was higher originally) as I think we're all on the same wave length.

[khawk20]

only occasional clips of the previous month were shown during the promos for the Boston house shows. I remember taping these promos monthly, including the clip finish of the intercontinental title change between Santana and Muraco in 1984 ,as well as a snuka plancha over the top rope onto muraco hyping their steel cage blow off match for the next boston card. Damn,,,, I wish i saved those.

Damn...so do we!

[shoe]

With the Backlund / Valentine draw the 1st time I saw it years ago I had it at 3 3/4*. Through repeat viewings during the years I actually like it more each viewing and have it in the 4 1/2* range.

[bradhindsight]

In finishing off the disc, I liked the 30-minute Backlund/Valentine rematch more than the draw also. Went a tick higher *-wise (i'd say 1/4 star better so for me it was **** but this may be on a sliding WWWF scale. I'm waffling if its really four).

 

This one was much different with Valentine taking it to Backlund for the first portion of the match rather than Bob keeping control with headlocks like in the first. The forearms and elbows Greg was throwing were great. Backlund's power-out hope spots were much more powerful. Greg started the leg work earlier in this match also, which is cool psychology since he really started too late in the first match (although no time limit was announced here). And he REALLY worked the leg - from a bunch of angles.

 

Backlund getting the figure-four himself was a molten spot. Crowd went nuts. They were absolutely trained for this submission - even earlier in the match when Valentine hooked on a different hold (that Vince corrected himself on) the crowd started to audibly gasp in anticipation of the figure-four. Now that is a fucking move that is OVER. And here was a cool example of you having to be IN the ropes to break the hold as the ref wouldn't let Valentine use the ropes to pull himself into them (and wouldn't' break the hold either). It's a little wonky once he does ask for the break as Greg puts in a single crab (there wasn't a break per se).

 

The end of course is...weird. Backlund, our hero, tricks Valentine by patting his back so he gets up and he quickly hits the big atomic drop for the pin. Seems odd the baby would do this - and as both you noted, Valentine falling for it was pretty crappy.

[soup23]

01-27 LARRY ZBYSZKO vs JOHNNY VALIANT ALL STAR WRESTLING

For a match introducing you to some of the main components to WWF, this wasn't awful. Johnny V looked good in his opening attack slinging Larry viciously into the turnbuckles with good desperation and then fairly terrible the rest of the match with the dreaded nerve hold and some other goofy selling on the outside from Zbyszko punches. Larry I thought showed good fire and was an effective babyface overall. Match ends with a double countout on the outside in a big schmooz. I liked Larry Z's flustered babyface promo immediately after the match. The less said about those Albano kicks, the better.

 

01-27 LARRY ZBYSZKO vs IVAN KOLOFF CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING

Heck of a cape on Ivan. Some basic chain wrestling to start that culminates in Larry busting out a leap frog and monkey flip that seemed very uncharacteristic for him. Albano seems more active giving instructions to Ivan in this match than he was Johnny V in the previous one. Lou trips Larry and he bails. What a wimp. Oh no, he just brings out Miss Elizabeth, I mean Tony Garea as backup to neutralize Lou. Every time that Ivan consults with Lou, he gains the advantage which is a nice touch. Ivan really amps up the pace and slings him into the turnbuckle, throws some snap mares, and is generally clubbing him pretty good. Larry comes back with an armdrag and continues with the onslaught in the corner leading to a back body drop, stomp, and bodyslam. Lou tries desperately to get in but can't with Garea there. Larry falls to the outside and Albano is able to get in one quick kick. Ivan does a couple of minutes of clubbering and as soon as Larry makes a comeback and puts on the abdominal stretch, Lou has had enough and charges in the ring creating a four man melee and another cheap finish. Again if this was on Raw it would be nothing memorable but certainly passable and for what they were trying to accomplish, this match did a good job. I can't understand how the match ended in a draw though.

 

02-79 BOB BACKLUND, GREG VALENTINE/WIZARD PROMOS WWF TV

Very straight laced Bob promo talking about the figure four and the danger that is involved with the hold. Valentine gives a cool promo talking about the power of his leglock. wizard sits back and laughs. Cool to have this inserted James as set up for the MSG match.

 

02-19 BOB BACKLUND vs GREG VALENTINE WWF TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

First I want to mention Vince. he does a great job flying solo on commentary for an hour allowing the action to breathe. It is truly amazing that the same person putting over hashtags and yelling at announcers every Monday to fill in the dead air is the same person calling this match. I thought this match was outstanding and kept my interest level up for the entire hour. The opening with Bob trying to slow Greg down after the promos was well done and showed that Bob paid attention and was actively scouting his opponent. Greg's work on the midsection was good as was the arm scissor. This is definitely a hold oriented match but they kept it compelling and it worked within the theme. We then get a great king of the mountain spot and Greg goes to work. I think this match is very basic in stature on the surface but rich with understated subtlety underneath that really puts it over the top. I had a feeling that if Greg would have focused on the leg and not betrayed his game plan, he would have won the belt. Bob felt like a champion with some flaws but who was still resourceful and not going to go down easy. Both men came out looking good and I'm ready to see what I think of the rematch. 4.5 stars or so from me if grading.

 

03-24 TONY GAREA/LARRY ZBYSZKO vs VALIANTS TAG TITLE CHAMPIONSHIP WRESTLING

Jimmy valiant uses his brains????? The Valiants win the belts and get pelted with some garbage.

 

03-26 BOB BACKLUND vs GREG VALENTINE WWF TITLE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN

Vince is playing up that the curfew has been waved which usually means a shorter match coming off a draw. Really surprised to hear that James, Parv, Brad either have this equal or ahead of the hour draw. I thought Valentines control in particular with the front face lock was much more meticulous. He was doing those clubbing elbow on the back of the head but the work and overall story of the match seemed a bit off. The Transition to the leg work was much more engaging. Bob makes a quick comeback and we sort of reset. Still don't know how i feel about the see saw spot they did as I have never seen that before but it looked kind of odd. Backlund getting the figure four in to a huge pop from MSG was a cool visual moment and bit of revenge. I still even with Loss's logic am not crazy about the ref pulling Valentines hands away. He had both hands clenched and if you want people to get tangled up to the ropes to break, give him a chance to do that you know? valentine pushes him away and then is able to hook in the single crab for a bit before retreating to the outside to work out his leg. Finish as has constantly been over is just stupid as all hell. I know backlund used the atomic drop and we are talking about 1979 but I just have big problems with that as a finisher. Even a body slam can be effective if you are working on the back in the course of the match. This was fairly disappointing overall with them getting thirty minutes. The focus and intensity seemed less than in the draw which is strange since they went half the time. Overall would probably only barely classify this as a good match mostly for Hammer's elbows and his leg work. 3-3.25 stars overall.

[bradhindsight]

That's a good recap there Chad. Good discussion. I may need to re-watch but what differentiated the two Backlund matches for me was the control stuff in the rematch with Valentine doing most of the damage came off more effective then Backlund trading headlocks and burning up time in the draw. It seemed like a good continuation from where the first match left off and Greg had smartened up and was taking the action right to the champ. Told a bit of a different story there and we finally got the figure-four payoff since that started so late in the first one. I thought the leg work overall was better than what was done in the draw.

 

Wonky finisher aside, Bob still hits it clean to retain so I can't take too much away (even with the dumb "taps his back" spot ). I mean it is a pretty BIG atomic drop

[shoe]

Soup your thoughts pretty much mirror mine. I had the draw in the 4.5 range and the rematch in the 2 3/4 3 star range. I'm glad I'm not the only voice of reason on these matches.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm likely to continue to catch heel heat for this, but no match with that many boring headlocks in it is getting a 4.5 from me. I don't know if you guys text or browse the internet or otherwise do something else during "the boring bits" while watching matches. I don't do anything but watch the match and make notes while doing it. If I have to make a long note, I'll even hit pause to ensure I don't miss something.

 

I might just have a big blind spot here, but I can't see how that opening 30 minutes of Backlund doing a headlock takeover into a headlock and just sitting there about 10 times in a row is "compelling". As I said on the show, it shows a paucity of imagination on Backlund's part and to me it's the definition of "boring" and came off as just eating time until they got to the second half of the match and the hot finishing stretch.

 

Second match had the fat cut off and that alone puts it ahead. In addition, I prefer Valentine's offense when he's on on top to the master of the headlock's, which the second match had more of. Finally, I think the first match suffered a lot for me because I'd only recently seen Bockwinkel vs. Hennig and thought they did a much better job at keeping the slow build interesting.

[soup23]

I'm likely to continue to catch heel heat for this, but no match with that many boring headlocks in it is getting a 4.5 from me. I don't know if you guys text or browse the internet or otherwise do something else during "the boring bits" while watching matches. I don't do anything but watch the match and make notes while doing it. If I have to make a long note, I'll even hit pause to ensure I don't miss something.

 

I might just have a big blind spot here, but I can't see how that opening 30 minutes of Backlund doing a headlock takeover into a headlock and just sitting there about 10 times in a row is "compelling". As I said on the show, it shows a paucity of imagination on Backlund's part and to me it's the definition of "boring" and came off as just eating time until they got to the second half of the match and the hot finishing stretch.

 

Second match had the fat cut off and that alone puts it ahead. In addition, I prefer Valentine's offense when he's on on top to the master of the headlock's, which the second match had more of. Finally, I think the first match suffered a lot for me because I'd only recently seen Bockwinkel vs. Hennig and thought they did a much better job at keeping the slow build interesting.

Whenever I comment on a match, it has my full attention. If I am watching Smackdown, Raw, or some random stuff (non yearbook, podcast, or stuff I know Im going to post on) then I will browse the internet and zone out a bit.

 

I understand where if you watch and read a blow by blow account of the match, it can seem boring. The first 40 minutes besides Valentines work don't have a lot of substantial stuff to it, but I also think that in the context of this match and the promos leading up to it that it makes perfect sense for Backlund to use his definitive advantage to slow the match down, show his superior wrestling ability, and not get caught in any power moves or prolonged leg work by Greg.

 

That is why even at half the time, the rematch felt to me like more fat added. What is Greg trying to accomplish by going after the front facelock so many times? He had some great elbows to gain the advantage so why not go for the knockout blow? That match does ratchet up with the leg work but I didn't have any logic gaps in the draw like the front face lock motif in the rematch.

[JerryvonKramer]

This may be where I'm a little less "Matt D" than you Chad, but to my mind just because something makes sense in a certain context, or just because something is logical, it doesn't automatically make it compelling. I can appreciate the idea that Backlund is working to a gameplan, but shit ... 40 minutes! Entertain me!

 

Even aside from that though, I think the way Backlund works the headlocks sucks. Bockwinkel can make headlocks interesting by doing little things. Backlund literally just sat there in them in this match. I like his arm wrenches, that's a great matwork spot from Backlund that gets the crowd into it and looks like it hurts. Him sitting in the same headlock for god knows how long is the opposite of the "little things", it's just doing nothing.

 

So I'll take an entertaining match with logic gaps over one that is logically worked but which bored me to tears for long stretches any day of the week.

 

Maybe this little taste difference between us has never really surfaced on WTBBP because we've always had Flair jumping here, there and everywhere in the long matches to keep things moving and me entertained.

[shoe]

This is what makes discussing wrestling fun. People have different takes on certain things. None of thinks the match sucks. It's that some hold it in higher regard than others. Also in the rematch I found it odd that Valentine would use a front facelock as his base. It seems like one of the hardest positions to work a match from, and thus the work I found lacking interest from me.

[bradhindsight]

Agree 100% shoe when it comes to the great opinions here. Fun stuff. I've enjoyed your work on the Titans pods so far!

 

Here's my kayfabe Valentine reasoning: in the first match Backlund controlled with the front headlock for 30 minutes. Valentine couldn't get on track with the leg stuff until way late - not even getting the figure-four on until after the bell (a spot I loved after the draw).

 

In the rematch, Valentine works on top with the headlock to be able to wear Backlund down with the elbows, softening him up for the eventual heavy leg work he couldn't get on in the first match. Sure the match only went 30 minutes, but Valentine's kayfabe mindset going in is the possibility of another 60 minute match.

[ohtani's jacket]

I watched a whole bunch of Backlund for a WWF poll we did on the old Smarkschoice board and I learned to love the headlock. I actually think I voted that Valentine/Backlund match as the No.1 WWE match of all-time or at least top 3.

[Kevin Ridge]

After randomly listening to the third show, it was nice to be able to watch the first disk beforehand and then listen to the show after. First disc was fun to just sit down and watch. Video quality is excellent. The use of the promos between some of the matches was a nice bonus. The rap music bits were a bit much for a long show but I'm also not a fan of rap. I've been working on AWA rewatching and I thought I had the wrong disc in and was looking at Jerry Blackwell on my screen but it was Lou Albano. I didn't think Valiant looked all that bad. His early attack of Larry was alright and he had some hop to his kicks. He also put something behind his turnbuckle smashes. Vince and Bruno wearing matching yellow jackets. So Larry is sick of Albano inferring in match against Koloff and takes off the back to return with Tony Garea. I was cracking up when Lou continued to interfere with Garea standing about two feet away and just watching. I was hoping Larry would leave the ring again and come back with somebody else to actual back him up. We need a stop watch to time Albano bolting after this match.

 

Nice work Wizard on that promo. First time for me watching the time limit draw. I knew going that was the result but I have to say it was very good. I do wonder if I would feel the same as Brick after watching it a second/third time. Yes, Backlund can go to the headlock a lot. But I loved the sequence when they were reversing the full nelson back and forth. Maybe if the could have worked in more little spots like this during first half and not relied as much on the headlock. They work the short arm scissor for a while too. Agreed, Valentine on the offense was better. Backlund feats of strength are great to watch. Second half of match is excellent and finish did leave me wanting to see rematch. Count me on the side of people who though the time limit was much better than rematch. Soup makes a good point about McMahon on commentary being able go things solo and do it well. One of the few times he's caught silent, you get to hear that fan yell clearly "do something" when Valentine/Backlund are in rest hold. I bet Vince did that on purpose. I'm mixed about the finish. Generally wrestlers doing stupid things in title matches upsets me a lot. Here, I thought it was dumb what Valentine did but I wasn't full of hate. Enjoyed listening to the show though and am looking forward to disc 2.

[BrickHithouse]

I've been working on AWA rewatching and I thought I had the wrong disc in and was looking at Jerry Blackwell on my screen but it was Lou Albano.

 

So Larry is sick of Albano inferring in match against Koloff and takes off the back to return with Tony Garea. I was cracking up when Lou continued to interfere with Garea standing about two feet away and just watching.

Holy shit, those two are twins! One is a better bumper though.

 

I was just thinking what a fun bit of extremely obscure continuity it would have been if, at Wrestlemania IV, Randy sends Elizabeth to the back and she returns with Tony Garea.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I've been working on AWA rewatching and I thought I had the wrong disc in and was looking at Jerry Blackwell on my screen but it was Lou Albano.

 

So Larry is sick of Albano inferring in match against Koloff and takes off the back to return with Tony Garea. I was cracking up when Lou continued to interfere with Garea standing about two feet away and just watching.

Holy shit, those two are twins! One is a better bumper though.

 

I was just thinking what a fun bit of extremely obscure continuity it would have been if, at Wrestlemania IV, Randy sends Elizabeth to the back and she returns with Tony Garea.

 

I would have marked out til my head exploded.

[BrickHithouse]

Dibiase would be crowned WWF champ as Garea shakes his head disapprovingly.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Dibiase would be crowned WWF champ as Garea shakes his head disapprovingly.

Shaked his head AWESOMELY.