Below the GOAT-candidates: Tier 2, Tier 3, Tier 4

[JerryvonKramer]

There has been a lot of GOAT discussion on this board and it is well established who is typically thought of as being in that discussion and who is not.

 

In this thread, I'd like to see who the PWO regulars would rank in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tiers of greatness.

 

Tier 2 is for guys who are obviously not in the GOAT discussion, for whatever reason, but who are still pretty great. Tier 3 is the next rung below that and so on.

 

I'd expect to see a pyramid shape here: only a handful of guys worthy of GOAT discussion, maybe double that in tier 2, double that again in tier 3, etc.

 

I haven't worked out my own tiers yet.

 

Probably Ricky Steamboat and Bret Hart would both be bonafide tier 2 guys in my book. Martel more like a tier 3. Hennig tier 4. Let's see how this goes.

[Dylan Waco]

I think there are more than a handful of guys who you could credibly call GOATC's.

 

In a way I think the "second tier" consists of guys who likely would be GOATC's if it weren't for lack of footage, or relatively short peaks....but then Buddy Rose and El Dandy would make my top fifteen, maybe my top ten and would be above a lot of people who I could see others viewing as GOAT types

 

I understand and to an extent use these sort of abstract "tiering" systems when I do these sort of things, but it's really hard for me to point to who/where I would consider the cut off. A part of me says Ricky Morton is the bridge, but I'm not sure I can fully articulate why

[Johnny Sorrow]

1. Bill Dundee

2. Paul Orndorff

3. Manny Fernandez

[JerryvonKramer]

I realise I should have provided a set of tiers here myself to try to get the conversation going, but I guess my interest was in seeing where certain guys would fall.

 

There are people like Tully who everyone seems to like but who never come up in GOAT discussions. Where does he go? Is Rick Rude good enough to a tier 4 guy? Where do you put Cena? Where do people put Shawn? All these sorts of things.

 

Some of it depends on how high you set the bar. Like, to me, Jumbo and Bockwinkel are in the GOAT discussion, even if they don't have a realistic chance of being number 1, they belong that high and don't look out of place in that company. Once you start saying guys like that are tier 2, then maybe everything gets shunted down a bit.

[Dylan Waco]

Just off the top of my head here are a list of names that posters here or people who I respect have tossed out as either their GOAT or a guy they saw as an extremely serious candidate:

 

Stan Hansen

Terry Funk

Ric Flair

Jumbo Tsuruta

Satanico

Genchiro Tenryu

Negro Casas

Jerry Lawler

Mitsuharu Misawa

Yoshiaki Fujiwara

Toshiaki Kawada

Kenta Kobashi

Nick Bockwinkel

Rey Mysterio

 

That's off the top of my head with little thought. This completely excludes Joshi ladies who have been heavily touted, a guy like Liger who had some huge advocates for years, someone like Fujinami who I think is an all timer that would rate ahead of several guys on that list for me personally (and is my favorite Japanese guy of the 80's), El Hijo Del Santo who has enough fans to easily fit in that tier, and probably others I'm forgetting. And then there are the Rose's, Dandy's, et. who I could never really call "second tier" with a straight face.

 

My point is that unless someone is really narrow in their view of GOATC's, the "top tier" is probably no less than fifteen guys and possibly as broad as 25 or so.

 

As an aside somewhat related to this, Cena is an interesting guy to think about in this discussion. Not to open up old wounds but the old "peak v. longevity" and "great matches" debates are things that really interest me in regard to Cena. Because it's my thought that if you put a ton of weight on Great Matches, Cena is a guy who rates ahead of a lot of people who many people would reflexively say were better than him

[NintendoLogic]

The two guys who always personified the second tier to me are Vader and Ricky Steamboat.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah, I guess "handful" undersold it. But if there are 25 legit GOATCs, then, by my completely-made-up-on-the-spot pyramid principle, there should be about 50 tier 2s, 100 tier 3s and 200 tier 4s!

[Loss]

The two guys who always personified the second tier to me are Vader and Ricky Steamboat.

Those guys along with Rey and Choshu are the first people that came to mind for me.

[soup23]

Some More Possible Tier 2 Candidates:

 

El Hijo Del Santo

Blue Panther

Liger

Bret Hart (Ducks for Cover)

 

Tier 3;

Dundee

Eaton

Tully

Benoit

 

One problem to me that we run into here is again the subjectiveness of opinion. Fujiwara would be at best a tier 2 candidate for me. That is not understating him but I can't foresee any situation where he makes my personal top 12. Similarly, Shawn would be high on a lot of people lists even folks that have seen a good portion of Japanese stuff

[JerryvonKramer]

See, Bret is as automatic a tier 2 guy in my mind as Steamboat. Are there arguments for seeing Bret as a GOATC and Steamer as a tier 2? If there are, I can't fathom them.

 

You putting Tully in tier 3 there, Chad, interests me. We have a solid decade of stuff from him. We think his time is cut short, but how many guys really have a peak longer than 7 years?

[WingedEagle]

Love this topic. Vader strikes me as an ideal candidate for tier 2 or 3. Similar to Dylan's point above about Cena, what do people think about Austin? Clearly doesn't have the longevity on top but he was a part of some classics and pretty consistent throughout his run on top.

 

What about Taue? On the one hand it seems silly to mention him here. On the other, he was a big enough part of enough great matches that you can't just say he was along for the ride. But I'm not sure if he makes a 3rd/4th tier or is more of an honorable mention type candidate.

 

I know I'm in the distinct minority here, but I've never seen the consensus on Lawler & Tenryu. Lawler's always been a hell of a one trick pony to me, and while he's responsible for a great number of rides, they don't rank with anyone else on this list. On the other hand I love a ton of Tenryu's work, but outside of a few gems he's someone who's never let me down but also never really consistently taken things to that next level. I'd be interested to compare him with Taue at some point.

[NintendoLogic]

Fuck that, Taue is tier 2 for sure. Let me put it this way: if Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi are Jordan/Magic/Bird (feel free to assign the roles however you like), then Taue is Scottie Pippen.

 

Also, El Hijo del Santo belongs in the first tier. I'd say he has as strong a case for GOAT as any luchador.

[soup23]

You putting Tully in tier 3 there, Chad, interests me. We have a solid decade of stuff from him. We think his time is cut short, but how many guys really have a peak longer than 7 years?

I think we have enough of Tully to judge him fairly, I just know of what I have seen, I wouldn't give more than one minute thought to Tully as the GOAT and that makes him sort of the gatekeeper for Tier 3 to me.

 

My pyramid flow would be:

 

Tier 1: The 7-8 guys I wouldn't bat an eyelash if anyone had them at #1 and the people I would deliberate strongly over

Tier 2: I would hear out an argument if you think they are the GOAT and give it some thought (Schneider pushing Fujiwara is best example I can think of for this)

Tier 3: Unequivocally great worker when looking at the career as the whole just never reached the plateau or consistency of others (would probably put all of the not enough footage strong candidates at the tail end here)

Tier 4: Very good to great worker for most of their career with a bevy of very good to great matches

[WingedEagle]

I'm all for Taue as Pippin and ashamed for not looking at it that way myself initially. I was thinking some may want to put him in the range of a Tony Parker but I like your idea much better.

[Death From Above]

I think Vader probably wins Tier 2 for me.

 

He's one of my all time favourite guys, but I can't see making a case for enjoying his overall work *personally* more than say, Jumbo, Hansen, or Misawa. And I know Misawa didn't always bring it in NOAH but the body of work he built up in the first half of the 1990's alone is... hard to fathom when you start adding it up.

 

I'd also throw out Baba as an underrated Tier 2 that falls at least partially into the "would like more footage" camp. I say that having seen a ton of his 80's and 70's that is available, as well as the very limited 60's stuff. He's partially a guy that peaked in an era we will never see a lot of and too many think of him as "that goofy old guy" simply through not having been as exposed to older Japanese wrestling. He was clearly a top worker in the late 60's and through most of the 70's, and I don't hate 80's Baba either. I get that some people can't get past the weirdness of his strikes (or his strange, long skinny arm big head alien-looking physique) but I'd go to bat for the guy. I also get that if you don't like long, methodical matches with a lot of holds that a lot of 70's isn't going to be for you.

[JerryvonKramer]

Another thing that interests me here. Pretty much no one is going to disagree that Vader is a tier 2. But for those of us who watched through the AWA set, there was a good deal of consensus that Jerry Blackwell, as a big man, was probably second only to Vader. But, unless I'm very much mistaken, I can't see a guy like Blackwell making tier 2, or maybe not even tier 3 on anyone's list.

 

What's Vader got that makes him a lock tier 2 that Blackwell hasn't? Just interested in the thinking behind these opinions.

 

I wonder if part of it is down to main event runs. Vader had marquee main event runs, Blackwell didn't. That sort of thinking also hurts someone like Bobby Eaton or your Ricky Mortons.

[Death From Above]

I have seen a lot more of Vader that's definitely part of it.

 

He also put himself into positions to top at least four huge companies in New Japan, WCW, UWFi, and All Japan. It's not like he was terrible in WWF either although it goes without saying that for work that's going to be the least of the 5 in that era, even without his push getting messed up.

 

Blackwell I like what I've seen but he doesn't have even close to that kind of exposure, even among your hardcore fanbase.

[Loss]

Another thing that interests me here. Pretty much no one is going to disagree that Vader is a tier 2. But for those of us who watched through the AWA set, there was a good deal of consensus that Jerry Blackwell, as a big man, was probably second only to Vader. But, unless I'm very much mistaken, I can't see a guy like Blackwell making tier 2, or maybe not even tier 3 on anyone's list.

 

What's Vader got that makes him a lock tier 2 that Blackwell hasn't? Just interested in the thinking behind these opinions.

 

I wonder if part of it is down to main event runs. Vader had marquee main event runs, Blackwell didn't. That sort of thinking also hurts someone like Bobby Eaton or your Ricky Mortons.

It isn't anything against Blackwell. He's a newer discovery for many people. I haven't even watched the AWA set yet. It will take time.

 

Card placement shouldn't be a factor on this list at all. This is PWO, not PWI.

[BrickHithouse]

How would you guys rate Adrian Adonis? Personally, he's a solid Tier 2 for me (and maybe Tier 1 for me if I really think about it).

[JerryvonKramer]

Another thing that interests me here. Pretty much no one is going to disagree that Vader is a tier 2. But for those of us who watched through the AWA set, there was a good deal of consensus that Jerry Blackwell, as a big man, was probably second only to Vader. But, unless I'm very much mistaken, I can't see a guy like Blackwell making tier 2, or maybe not even tier 3 on anyone's list.

 

What's Vader got that makes him a lock tier 2 that Blackwell hasn't? Just interested in the thinking behind these opinions.

 

I wonder if part of it is down to main event runs. Vader had marquee main event runs, Blackwell didn't. That sort of thinking also hurts someone like Bobby Eaton or your Ricky Mortons.

It isn't anything against Blackwell. He's a newer discovery for many people. I haven't even watched the AWA set yet. It will take time.

 

Card placement shouldn't be a factor on this list at all. This is PWO, not PWI.

 

You say that Charles, but look at the people who have been named thus far. I don't see any SD Jones-level guys listed outside of El Dandy (now look who is ducking for cover! )

 

EDIT: Re Adonis, not making my tiers at all I'm afraid from what I've seen of him.

[soup23]

Adonis is probably too inconsistent to be anything above Tier 4 for me James.

[BrickHithouse]

No Adonis love here? Damn. Rough crowd. Yeah he's a solid 2 for me but I haven't seen ALL of his stuff and my rankings on everything tend to be pretty fluid and ever-changing.

 

Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, how about them? I'd go 2 pretty easily for both, with Greg slightly higher.

[jdw]

 

[soup23]

Definitely think if we do a GOAT list again, Bills tier system is not a bad starting point. He has a few too many names in his pantheon (or tier 1) level but otherwise he did a good job of distinguishing the candidates in a sport where #1 was never in question.

[Loss]

 

I don't get it. Are you making a sports reference that means nothing to me again?