Is it possible to be too ignorant to enjoy Japanese wrestling - or do I secretly agree with Vince Russo

[ohtani's jacket]

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud.

 

I do find it amusing that a guy who goes into minute detail about a Bruce Springsteen concert, the steak he had for dinner, the time he ate dinner with Meltzer in Japan or his masturbatory habits as a teenager doesn't think there's any value in a little bit of extra detail, perhaps a bit of context from the commentary or a clearer idea of how the narrative was framed for the audience, but whatever... my point was that you didn't need any of this extra context outside of a knowledge of the booking history, but as you usual you argued what you want to argue, threw some pot shots and acted smug. And keep calling me Daniel to be condescending.

 

Anyway, I regret being involved in this thread.

[goodhelmet]

I don't regret this thread. It is inspiring me to work on that Sano comp.

[Dylan Waco]

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud.

Other regular posters could have been Joshua, Spanky, me, Matt Talbot (SweetJesusFreak) or possibly one or two others.

 

That is my entire contribution to this thread and I have no memory of the debate in question

[jdw]

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud.

So why was I talking about the 1995 match in the thread if it was limited to just about the "Feud"? It was about Sano's career and career patch.

 

 

I do find it amusing that a guy who goes into minute detail about a Bruce Springsteen concert, the steak he had for dinner, the time he ate dinner with Meltzer in Japan or his masturbatory habits as a teenager doesn't think there's any value in a little bit of extra detail, perhaps a bit of context from the commentary or a clearer idea of how the narrative was framed for the audience, but whatever...

For 06/09/95? We've talked about the little extra bit of details and context in the storylines in the match. We have for years.

 

But by all means, if the commentary of the match explains why they broke up, translate it for us. They broke up because Baba asked/told Kawada to leave Misawa go team with Taue back in 1993. This was publically known during the Carny, and is right there in the Hand Shake and also in that last match I linked to, not only in how Taue and Kawada played it during the match, but also in the post match where Kawada knew he wouldn't be teaming with these guys anymore. It's not like he hit Misawa over the head with a chair and gave him a crotch chop before walking out. That was two year before.

 

Seriously, if the commentary of that 40+ minute match two years after their break up has greater detail in why Baba told Kawada to team with Taue (i.e. beyond what everyone knows: Jumbo wasn't coming back), please translate it and give me a match time counter so I can play it for a friend to translate to confirm you're not pulling something completely out of your ass.

 

Same with the Animosity between the two if it goes beyond the "street legend" stuff and the actually storyline stuff and the actual accidental storyline stuff (like Kawada breaking Misawa's orbital bones). Translate the commentary and time stamp it.

 

 

my point was that you didn't need any of this extra context outside of a knowledge of the booking history,

On 06/09/95? I think to fully enjoy it, some extra context is useful beyond the booking history and just looking at the results. Misawa's eye isn't a booking history thing. They don't build the match around it, so it's not vital to enjoying the match to understand it. But knowing about it, then the points where Kawada and Taue target it mean more.

 

It's a bit like Elizabeth's shoe. If all you know is that Arn and Flair pinned Hogan, that's okay. But if you know that Liz's shoe played a role, then any time that thing got busted out, you got a smile on your face.

 

 

but as you usual you argued what you want to argue,

I'm not the one ducking points. I responded to your entire post. You're the one dancing around.

 

 

threw some pot shots and acted smug.

That's not being smug. It's being an asshole to the person who was smug earlier in the thread. You need to be a little more self aware.

 

As far as pot shots, I've been leaving most of the best one on the cutting room floor. Hell, I didn't even take the time to have fun with your latest installment of Fukuzawa punting, which was more than a big smug if we go back and look at it.

 

 

And keep calling me Daniel to be condescending.

I'm hardly the only one who has called you Daniel here. I also used it just once in a response to you in this thread. Do you think I have a bug up my ass when people call me John?

 

 

Anyway, I regret being involved in this thread.

I think this is where I'm suppose to run off and get a Hallmark card.

[ohtani's jacket]

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud.

Other regular posters could have been Joshua, Spanky, me, Matt Talbot (SweetJesusFreak) or possibly one or two others.

 

That is my entire contribution to this thread and I have no memory of the debate in question

 

Joshua was the guy, I think.

[jdw]

The only person who thought you were right in that Liger/Sano argument was that hanger on of yours, captain swing or whatever his name was and probably Jewett before the two of you had your break-up. Todd agreed with me, the other regular there whose name I can't remember now agreed with me, because it's obvious that Liger won the blowoff match and won the feud.

Other regular posters could have been Joshua, Spanky, me, Matt Talbot (SweetJesusFreak) or possibly one or two others.

Other regulars that I can remember on the KFZ board and whatever it was later renamed: TY. Ripclawe. LigerMark posted a shitload. Pegasus Kid... there as so many Pegasus's but this one was one that might have done some tape reviewing and/or started another board (like Blue Thunder Reviews or the New Wave board... maybe someone else). There were guys like Xavier and FatSexy that might have been posters mostly in the more general board. Burr. Coey of course, though likely banned at some point. Quite a few other posters to that board. Some good conversations.

[jdw]

I don't regret this thread. It is inspiring me to work on that Sano comp.

Bumped the old thread in Projects and Lists. Lots of good stuff that Phil and others did in lists for promotions. Didn't look closely enough to see if we ever got around to looking at his NOAH stuff.

[evilclown]

Think of someone jobbing to me for 13 years on message boards. There'd be a little bit of animosity.

Sorry. I think I missed my spot.

[jdw]

I believe we've gotten along rather well for a good number of years, Jonathan.

[evilclown]

I believe we've gotten along rather well for a good number of years, Jonathan.

Well, when you're the Washington Generals, at some point losing stops stinging so much.

[Smack2k]

I like to make up my own storylines. Like 6/9/95 for example. Kobashi got roughed up because he found out about internal affairs lying to the cops. He needed to be shut up. Kawada and Taue were in on the thing the whole time. If they don't stop Kobashi, they'll be found out. Misawa is two weeks away from retirement. The last thing he wants is to be wrapped up in this mess. He's clearly too old for that shit!

 

Don't even get me started on the MPro 10-mans.

That's fantastic.

 

I'm a guy who also wants to know why people are fighting. As far as Misawa/ Kawada goes, I bought that set someone had out there about 6 years ago, and I figured it all out. And I love it. But I have to admit that I need the story to really dig a wrestling match. That's why I'm loving watching the PR stuff now that that awesome dude is filling in the stories.

 

I stopped reading this thread after this quote....I couldnt say it better myself in terms of ALL wrestling......I need the story to enhance what I am about to see and really get me emotionally involved...otherwise, its two dudes slugging it out over nothing....like seeing a bar fight on the other side of the bar...sure its fun and seeing someone take a big punch is great...but knowing why they started fighting makes it WAY more overall enjoyable and allows me to understand why someone is getting his ass beat....

[Negro Suave]

I disagree with the idea that context doesn't matter and that we were all blank slates coming in. We certainly are not blank slates when it comes to wrestling the context is the context of American storytelling. Of overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning. This is the basic central story to professional wrestling in the states. Japan follows more of the storyline of Japanese story telling. It is more of humility triumphing over arrogance. That being humble an earnest and honorable will allow you to win.

 

We are products of our environment and I think at least understand the cultural story to understand why things work.

My apologies if I've misunderstood you, but it's easy to pick up the context from American wrestling as the announcing and the promos are all in English. A kid can start watching and following it, as many of us did as children. And children by and large don't need context as they learn as they go, though I do remember asking an uncle of mine all sorts of stupid questions when I first discovered wrestling. Japanese wrestling is a stab in the dark when it comes to those things. You can read up on it, read what other people have written or recommended, but a lot is lost even on hardcore viewers. Imagine how much less you'd understand about American workers if you couldn't understand what they were saying or what they were feuding about. You could still get a sense of atmosphere and emotion, but a lot of the nuances would be lost and that's generally what happens with Japanese wrestling. I'm sure there are Japanese storytelling traits you can find in Japanese wrestling, but overcoming adversity or great odds and still coming through fighting and winning is actually probably the most overwhelming theme in all of Japanese literature, though it often has a tragic, if not pessimistic outcome. Humility isn't a hugely defining characteristic of Japanese workers. I wouldn't call Choshu, Hokuto, Akira Maeda or Aja Kong humble for example. Nor Takada, Ozaki, Chigusa or Jumbo Tsuruta.

 

 

Late reply to this but I think you hit and missed my point simultaneously. I am by no means stating that everything is as such. However I am putting it in context of the overall story. Trying to take in any wrestling on a simply match to match basis is a fallacy. The overall story of an entire show or series of shows is what sets the tone. A

 

You can see it in Indy wrestling in the states where people can't understand why local Indy fed a has such a strong following with something that doesn't seem enjoyable on a first glance.

 

It's not the most intuitive thing as in the states we pride ourselves on exporting our culture WWE is all over the world and they cater to that kind of idea. But they also cater to selling people on their style of storytelling. Whereas there has never been an effort from any Japanese company to be anything other than japanese with the notable exception of DG-USA.

 

To illustrate my point. Lets take the whole idea of burning spirit. The idea of standing up to blows that would otherwise cripple a man. Many of us understand this idea from what we have learned from other reviewers repeated watching a etc. to a Japanese fan it's obvious on its face what it is why it is and why it's cool. That is something they new since childhood. A Japanese kid could watch Japanese wrestling and no more about it than we would ever.

 

This is rambling and I'm sick so I apologize for lack of sense.