KrisZ Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Well to be honest how much of the old stuff was being talked about online before say 10 years ago.....most of your forums was Japanese or current wrestling centric. Wrestling Classics & Kayfabe Memories were around but it catered to a niche audience. Not to pat ourselves on the back but the 80's project has been very key in getting discussion going about non-WWF/WCW American wrestling back in the day on forums non-WC or KM. Footage being more easily available makes a big difference, not to downplay what you guys have done. The idea that I'd watch 150 AWA matches (and probably double that with all the extra watching I did) would have been outlandish five years ago. Like I said I never read Hart's book but I did read Watts' and he glowed about him. He has less positive things to say about Robley since he was brought up. The footage was available the problems were they cost too damn much. Pre-DVD buying VHS tapes were brutal and us old-timers can remember that. You had to be selective in what you bought because of the prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Ease of access then. I just paid up for the lucha set today but in general I'm a total shameful freeloader relative to the sheer amount of stuff I watch and at least half of what I watch now is from before 1990. I bought some comps and what not in the 99-01 range or so when I just got to college but you could count on two hands the non-commercial tapes I owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Friedlander, Lynch, & McAdam were the main sources for the old stuff and the first two charged over $20 per tape at times. And here are John McAdam's prices circa February 1, 2001. http://web.archive.org/web/20010201053500/...johnmcadam.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Friedlander, Lynch, & McAdam were the main sources for the old stuff and the first two charged over $20 per tape at times. And here are John McAdam's prices circa February 1, 2001. http://web.archive.org/web/20010201053500/...johnmcadam.com/ The real problem was degradation. After a couple of generations stuff was practically unwatchable. Imagine if every DVD burned or download resulted in a deterioration of quality. That's what tape trading was like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Well degradation and trying to get McAdam to actually send the tapes, and being happy to receive anything that was even 75% accurate to what you ordered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Exactly plus with the advent of DVD's a lot of people that were underground started converting stuff to DVD and brand new collections became available. Stuff like that and the phenomenon known as You Tube among others has helped the renaissance of 80's wrestling. Plus you had the fact that Friedlander & Lynch were underground as shit. Dylan brought up how not being talked about....the theory that Lawler was one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time was almost foreign until more stuff became available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 There was lots of older stuff discussed years ago on the net, though not in a detailed way all that often and that is the real difference. On Lawler he always had people who touted him as an all timer, but we were a small minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 There was lots of older stuff discussed years ago on the net, though not in a detailed way all that often and that is the real difference. On Lawler he always had people who touted him as an all timer, but we were a small minority. Plus the quantity of people that are discussing older stuff can't be dismissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 The change in the majority opinion from Gary Hart being a useless lump who no-sold for Ric Flair to him being a great manager definitely happened before his death and book. The positive response to his interviews in both WCCW documentary DVDs started the shift, IIRC. The book added a lot to his legacy and there's plenty of obvious self-aggrandizing in there, but a lot of people also learned about some legit history that wasn't well-known. For example the booking structure of JCP in '83-'84 with Hart, Wahoo, and Ernie Ladd each in charge of a state (NC/SC/VA) with Dory Funk Jr. in charge of "the territory" is something I never heard about before his book (Dory always got sole credit for the build to Starrcade) and it's confirmed in the JCP doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 The change in the majority opinion from Gary Hart being a useless lump who no-sold for Ric Flair to him being a great manager definitely happened before his death and book. The positive response to his interviews in both WCCW documentary DVDs started the shift, IIRC. The book added a lot to his legacy and there's plenty of obvious self-aggrandizing in there, but a lot of people also learned about some legit history that wasn't well-known. For example the booking structure of JCP in '83-'84 with Hart, Wahoo, and Ernie Ladd each in charge of a state (NC/SC/VA) with Dory Funk Jr. in charge of "the territory" is something I never heard about before his book (Dory always got sole credit for the build to Starrcade) and it's confirmed in the JCP doc. I'm not saying the book wasn't interesting. It was. But it also reeked of bullshit, like most wrestling stuff. Only, for whatever reason, it seems to have been taken as gospel. Even in the best case scenario, assuming he did everything he said he did, does that make him a Hall of Famer? Being a secondary part of a string of good, but not Hall worthy acts? Being an occasional booker, who can't hang his hat on any significant run? I'm trying to see the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 There was lots of older stuff discussed years ago on the net, though not in a detailed way all that often and that is the real difference. On Lawler he always had people who touted him as an all timer, but we were a small minority. I've always kind of wondered this: Does Lawler have any idea that at least a subsection of people think so highly of him as a worker? Not as a presence or as "The King." It used to be such a small minority and now it's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Gary can hang his hat mainly on the groundwork that led to the success of World Class. Michael Hayes & Kevin Von Erich will both tell you that. Sure Ken Mantell came in a couple of months after the turn but it was Gary who set the table for him to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Gary can hang his hat mainly on the groundwork that led to the success of World Class. Michael Hayes & Kevin Von Erich will both tell you that. Sure Ken Mantell came in a couple of months after the turn but it was Gary who set the table for him to succeed. I don't think you hang your hat on the Hall of Fame with what you almost did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Jim Ross & Bill Watts speak on the greatness of Gary Hart http://www.jrsbarbq.com/2008/03/17/gary-ha...as-tolled-again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Jim Ross & Bill Watts speak on the greatness of Gary Hart http://www.jrsbarbq.com/2008/03/17/gary-ha...as-tolled-again I don't disagree that Gary Hart was an important figure. He deserves consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted September 20, 2013 Report Share Posted September 20, 2013 Bill Watts loves unnecessary quotes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 Dave Meltzer responded to a brief summary post I wrote over at The Board on Patera and it was by far the most positive thing I've seen him say on Ken yet: He is very clearly a deserving candidate for the ballot. He was with Murdoch, Ole, Snyder, Carpentier and one or two others right on the verge of going in the first year but I couldn't pull the trigger, seeing him as borderline. But very viable. As strong if not stronger than a lot of people/acts who have come close. He was a star from his first day in the business, and pretty well known in the sports world before he ever was in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 21, 2013 Report Share Posted September 21, 2013 Cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 I'm continuing to pour through the WWF and WCW results to run statistics against various time periods and which wrestlers appeared on those shows looking for correlations between wrestlers and attendance. Yesterday, I tackled JCP/WCW covering about 1800 shows with attendance figures. I looked for wrestlers who competed on 10+ shows within the attendance database for that year, and on those shows had a significantly (500 people or more) higher paid attendance than the annual attendance average. It's not a perfect system because as you see - major events (i did exclude PPVs) like TV tapings can heavily skew the attendance. I also tried to use "paid" attendance, but that number was only available for some events. 1986 (118 shows): Baby Doll (2386), Jim Cornette (2102), Road Warrior Hawk (1538), Road Warrior Animal (1460), Jimmy Garvin (1166), Rick Rude (1150), Nikita Koloff (1122), Ric Flair (1120), Dusty Rhodes (1040), Nelson Royal (1015), Brad Armstrong (957), Dick Murdoch (923), Robert Gibson (860), Tully Blanchard (754), Arn Anderson (651), Ricky Morton (592), Black Bart (519) 1987 (126 shows): Buddy Roberts (5059), Terry Gordy (4051), Chris Adams (2687), Steve Williams (2495), Dick Murdoch (2488), Vladimir Petrov (1949), Road Warrior Hawk (1638), Dutch Mantell (1560), Dusty Rhodes (1529), Rick Steiner (1522), Road Warrior Animal (1484), Black Bart (1375), Wahoo McDaniel (1313), Ray Traylor (1312), Sting (1252), MOD Squad Basher (1191), Ivan Koloff (1183) 1988 (126 shows): Paul Ellering (2665), Robert Gibson (2329), Ricky Morton (2078), Russian Assassin (1902), Brad Armstrong (1314), Jimmy Garvin (1251), Ricky Santana (1246), Dusty Rhodes (1216), Dick Murdoch (1193), Arn Anderson (1175), Mike Rotundo (1116), Tully Blanchard (1084), Kevin Sullivan (1053), Jim Cornette (949), Ivan Koloff (823), Nikita Koloff (749) 1989 (75 shows): Al Greene (1371), Brad Anderson (1110), Tommy Rich (1010), Ric Flair (820), Rip Morgan (816), Sid Vicious (514) 1990 (141 shows): Kevin Sullivan (1775), Shane Douglas (1617), Jack Victory (1321), Rip Morgan (1251), Paul Orndorff (1212), Vader (1125), Lex Luger (688), Road Warrior Hawk (630), Road Warrior Animal (597), Ric Flair (586) 1991 (163 shows): Sid Vicious (1374), Fidel Sierra (1325), Dan Spivey (1087), Ric Flair (780), Rick Rude (747), Scott Steiner (542) 1992 (185 shows): n/a 1993 (163 shows): Raven (1502), Michael Hayes (1131), Kevin Nash (1026), Shane Douglas (812), Vader (698), Paul Orndorff (518) 1994 (93 shows): Hulk Hogan (2461), Diamond Dallas Page (1144), Ric Flair (588) 1995 (87 shows): n/a 1996 (126 shows): Scott Hall (697), Kevin Nash (697), Syxx (611) 1997 (66 shows): Ric Flair (1671), Syxx (1256), Scotty Riggs (794), Disco Inferno (641), Psychosis (568) 1998 (89 shows): Hulk Hogan (6697), Scott Putski (6296), Ultimo Dragon (5482), Booker T (4879), Psychosis (3261), Bill Goldberg (2894), Sting (2356), Rey Mysterio Jr (2111), Scott Norton (2025), Giant (1951), Chavo Guerrero Jr (1810), Norman Smiley (1601), Alex Wright (1392), Lex Luger (1311), Disco Inferno (1241), Scotty Riggs (1187), Billy Kidman (1082), Wrath (852), Scott Steiner (608), Scott Hall (541) 1999 (141 shows): Scott Steiner (5586), Kevin Nash (3623), Wrath (3372), Hulk Hogan (3261), Scott Hall (2689), Scott Norton (2187), Chris Jericho (1988), Brian Adams (1985), Sandman (1314), Kenny Kaos (1273), Bam Bam Bigelow (1190), Raven (984), Rey Mysterio Jr (877), Diamond Dallas Page (765), Bill Goldberg (567), Psychosis (520) 2000-2001 (124 shows): n/a Clearly, the TV tapings (Nitro/Thunder) are causing some of the distortions. I didn't filter only for top matches, so some interesting jobbers show up on the list as well. By far the weirdest result was SCOTT PUTSKI who wrestled on some huge shows during the 1998 boom (Georgia Dome, Astrodome, TWA Dome) WCW @ Atlanta, GA - Georgia Dome - July 6, 1998 (41, 412) WCW @ Hartford, CT - Civic Center - August 17, 1998 (12, 655; sell out) WCW @ Terre Haute, IN - Hulman Center - August 25, 1998 (3, 556) WCW @ Peoria, IL - Civic Center - August 26, 1998 (7, 128) WCW @ Pensacola, FL - Civic Center - September 7, 1998 (6, 379; sell out) WCW @ Mobile, AL - September 8, 1998 (3, 988) WCW @ Amherst, MA - September 22, 1998 (3, 000) WCW @ Minneapolis, MN - Target Center - October 19, 1998 (15, 722) WCW @ Wichita, KS - Kansas Coliseum - November 16, 1998 (13, 981) WCW @ Houston, TX - Astrodome - December 7, 1998 (32, 067) WCW @ St. Louis, MO - TWA Dome - December 21, 1998 (29, 000) In the end, I think the more interesting metric is number of years someone appeared on the list - Ric Flair leads with 7 years followed by a legion of people with three (Robert Gibson, Road Warrior Animal, Dick Murdoch, Scott Steiner, Dusty Rhodes, Ricky Morton, Hulk Hogan, Road Warrior Hawk, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, Lex Luger, Tully Blanchard, Psychosis, Nikita Koloff). Most of those I would consider people that were draws for the time. However, we're comparing very disparate time periods - early 90s was so terrible that 500 more people is incredible. Late 90s was so hot that 500 is less than margin of error! The person that I was hoping would jump out during this analysis would be Sting - who really didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mookeighana Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 I also did a bunch of regressions looking at top wrestlers by 5 year periods 1963-2013 for WWF/WWE for the top talent; here's the initial analysis suggested: HIGHLY EFFECTIVE DRAWS (high coefficient, low p-value) Modern Era low p-value (statistically relevent) 1989-1993.. Hulk Hogan (+5826) 1984-1988.. Hulk Hogan (+5470) 1999-2003.. The Rock (+4782) 1999-2003.. Triple H (+3359) 1994-1998.. The Rock (+3259) 2004-2008.. Umaga (+3217) 2004-2008.. The Undertaker (+3211) 2009-2013.. Randy Orton (+3135) 1984-1988.. Andre the Giant (+3037) 2004-2008.. John Cena (+2892) 1984-1988.. Roddy Piper (+2881) 1989-1993.. Rick Rude (+2734) 2009-2013.. Dolph Ziggler (+2342) 1994-1998.. Steve Austin (+2293) 2009-2013.. Chris Jericho (+2288) 1999-2003.. Steve Austin (+2251) 2004-2008.. Shawn Michaels (+2101) 1989-1993.. Randy Savage (+2094) 2009-2013.. The Big Show (+2066) 1999-2003.. Rob Van Dam (+2056) 1999-2003.. Chris Benoit (+2048) 1984-1988.. Randy Savage (+2028) 1989-1993.. Ultimate Warrior (+2001) 2004-2008.. Batista (+2000) 2009-2013.. John Cena (+1988) 1984-1988.. Iron Sheik (+1933) 2004-2008.. Mark Henry (+1835) 1999-2003.. Chris Jericho (+1749) 1989-1993.. Roddy Piper (+1740) 1999-2003.. Kurt Angle (+1719) 1984-1988.. Paul Orndorff (+1701) 1994-1998.. Mick Foley (+1677) 1984-1988.. King Kong Bundy (+1664) 1994-1998.. The Undertaker (+1641) 1989-1993.. The Undertaker (+1638) Historic Era low p-value (statistically relevent) 1969-1973.. Bruno Sammartino (+10773) 1974-1978.. Bruno Sammartino (+9497) 1974-1978.. Bob Backlund (+8118) 1963-1968.. Buddy Rogers (+7369) 1979-1983.. Andre the Giant (+5778) 1979-1983.. Hulk Hogan (+5067) 1979-1983.. Bob Backlund (+4965) 1963-1968.. Bruno Sammartino (+3795) 1979-1983.. Pedro Morales (+3295) 1969-1973.. Victor Rivera (+3220) 1969-1973.. Chief Jay Strongbow (+2975) 1974-1978.. Ivan Putski (+2880) 1979-1983.. Ivan Putski (+2813) 1979-1983.. Don Muraco (+2481) 1969-1973.. Pedro Morales (+2382) 1979-1983.. Tony Atlas (+1886) Historic Era high p-value (statistically questionable) 1969-1973.. The Sheik (+3182) 1969-1973.. Tarzan Tyler (+3009) 1969-1973.. Tony Garea (+2444) 1969-1973.. Mr Fuji (+2235) 1974-1978.. Jimmy Valiant (+2188) 1963-1968.. Bobo Brazil (+2178) 1963-1968.. Dr Jerry Graham (+1965) 1974-1978.. Superstar Billy Graham (+1870) 1963-1968.. Bill Miller (+1660) 1963-1968.. Hans Mortier (+1646) 1974-1978.. Haystacks Calhoun (+1620) 1963-1968.. Gorilla Monsoon (+1576) MODERATELY EFFECTIVE DRAWS low p-value 1994-1998.. Glen Jacobs (+1560) 1989-1993.. Bret Hart (+1517) 2009-2013.. Rey Mysterio Jr (+1492) 2004-2008.. CM Punk (+1448) 1984-1988.. Greg Valentine (+1444) 1984-1988.. Ricky Steamboat (+1421) 1984-1988.. Junkyard Dog (+1403) 2004-2008.. Triple H (+1386) 2004-2008.. Chris Jericho (+1369) 1999-2003.. Glen Jacobs (+1320) 1984-1988.. Ted Dibiase (+1296) 1994-1998.. Yokozuna (+1287) 1994-1998.. Scott Hall (+1276) 2009-2013.. Edge (+1219) 2009-2013.. Glen Jacobs (+1205) 1999-2003.. Sean Waltman (+1182) 2004-2008.. Randy Orton (+1156) 1994-1998.. Kevin Nash (+1135) 1994-1998.. Bret Hart (+1106) 1994-1998.. Vader (+1002) 1984-1988.. Davey Boy Smith (+986) 1989-1993.. Curt Hennig (+959) 1984-1988.. Honkytonk Man (+959) 1989-1993.. John Tenta (+915) 1994-1998.. Shawn Michaels (+899) 2004-2008.. Rey Mysterio Jr (+878) 1984-1988.. Big John Studd (+847) 1989-1993.. Yokozuna (+814) MODERATELY EFFECTIVE DRAWS high p-value 1999-2003.. Mick Foley (+1216) 2009-2013.. Mike Mizanin (+1050) 2009-2013.. Mark Henry (+914) 1999-2003.. The Undertaker (+895) 2009-2013.. Alberto Del Rio (+848) 2009-2013.. CM Punk (+827) 2004-2008.. JBL (+807) Historic Era high p-value 1974-1978.. Mr Fuji (+1450) 1979-1983.. Pat Patterson (+1329) 1963-1968.. Bill Watts (+1238) 1974-1978.. Chief Jay Strongbow (+1235) 1979-1983.. Sgt Slaughter (+1143) 1974-1978.. Killer Kowalski (+1110) 1979-1983.. Rick Martel (+1014) 1974-1978.. Tony Garea (+982) 1979-1983.. Greg Valentine (+868) 1974-1978.. Stan Stasiak (+804) NON-EFFECTIVE DRAWS low p-value 1989-1993.. Big Bossman (+763) 1984-1988.. Brutus Beefcake (+706) 1984-1988.. Tito Santana (+706) 1989-1993.. Shawn Michaels (+703) 1989-1993.. Ted Dibiase (+558) 1994-1998.. Davey Boy Smith (-1448) NON-EFFECTIVE DRAWS Historic Era low p-value 1979-1983.. Tony Garea (-1762) 1969-1973.. Killer Kowalski (-4748) NON-EFFECTIVE DRAWS Modern Era high p-value 2004-2008.. Kurt Angle (+788) 1999-2003.. Booker T (+625) 1994-1998.. Dustin Rhodes (+496) 1994-1998.. Owen Hart (+487) 2004-2008.. The Big Show (+476) 2004-2008.. Glen Jacobs (+467) 1999-2003.. The Big Show (+467) 1999-2003.. Test3 (+441) 1989-1993.. Jake Roberts (+383) 2009-2013.. Sheamus (+382) 2009-2013.. Bryan Danielson (+272) 1989-1993.. Ric Flair (+254) 1999-2003.. Rikishi (-12) 1994-1998.. Triple H (-34) 2009-2013.. Christian (-170) 2009-2013.. Jack Swagger (-316) 1999-2003.. Big Bossman (-405) 1989-1993.. Sgt Slaughter (-407) 2004-2008.. Edge (-503) 1994-1998.. Sid Justice (-661) NON-EFFECTIVE DRAWS Historic Era high p-value 1963-1968.. Baron Mikel Scicluna (+733) 1969-1973.. Gorilla Monsoon (+656) 1979-1983.. Jimmy Snuka (+468) 1974-1978.. Gorilla Monsoon (+450) 1969-1973.. Haystacks Calhoun (+427) 1963-1968.. Johnny Valentine (+345) 1979-1983.. Masa Saito (+295) 1969-1973.. Prof Toru Tanaka (+202) 1963-1968.. Killer Kowalski (+198) 1979-1983.. Mr Fuji (+174) 1969-1973.. Gito Mongol (+165) 1979-1983.. George Steele (+151) 1963-1968.. Prof Toru Tanaka (+114) 1969-1973.. Nikolai Volkoff (-9) 1974-1978.. Peter Maivia (-206) 1963-1968.. Waldo Von Erich (-442) 1974-1978.. Ken Patera (-494) 1969-1973.. Ivan Koloff (-505) 1963-1968.. Bulldog Brower (-666) 1969-1973.. Freddie Blassie (-815) 1974-1978.. Spiros Arion (-836) 1974-1978.. Larry Zbyszko (-896) 1963-1968.. Smasher Sloan (-1145) 1963-1968.. Luke Graham (-2308) My top take-aways here were: + Brock doesn't fit well into these five-year periods so he couldn't be evaluated. + Batista does get some credit for being a draw in the mid-2000s. + Pedro should get some credit for being a draw in the 1969-1973 and 1979-1983 eras. + Edge will need to get in on his merits as a worker, not as a draw. + Similarly, Snuka and Slaughter would need to get in on his merits as a worker, not as a draw. + For his WWF run, neither Patera or Koloff are noticeable, but that's not surprising. For modern, I'm leaning Batista (draw), Edge (work), Rock & Roll (work & draw), Slaughter (work). Both Koloff and Patera are interesting, but I'm still looking for the key to push me. Brock remains tough to nail down. After this attendance analysis, tempted to vote for Dick Murdoch and Pedro Morales, who I hadn't considered previously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 To me, there always seemed like an instability to WCW's house shows, and back to JCP's as well I suppose. Anecdotally, am I alone in this or is there a sense that Crocket/Turner advertised matches that were different than what the shows actually looked like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Not sure that there is a "key" for either Patera or Ivan, though I think both smoke Edge and Batista as candidates, so we are operating from different universes. If by "key" you mean a big run or moment to point to I'd look at Patera's run in 1980 and then shop it around next to the run of other heels during that era and tell me what you find. Stats aren't going to tell the full story (they rarely do in my view), but there aren't that many guys who had money drawing feuds with Pedro, Backlund and Bruno in the same year, while also getting multiple main events (4) and an NWA title shot in St. Louis. And then there is the whole Missouri/I-C title deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Dylan, since you mention Ivan / Patera again -- do you think that the fact Ivan was able to transition into a new era of wrestling in the 1980s adds to his case at all? It's one thing he has over Patera, but I haven't pushed it in this thread much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 When does that new era start? Patera was effective in the early 80s in the AWA and then as a heel with Heenan in WWF as a key part of the Andre feud until his arrest. How effective is Koloff after, what, 86? That basically gives him two-three years into "new era" on Patera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 24, 2013 Report Share Posted September 24, 2013 Dylan, since you mention Ivan / Patera again -- do you think that the fact Ivan was able to transition into a new era of wrestling in the 1980s adds to his case at all? It's one thing he has over Patera, but I haven't pushed it in this thread much. I think it means very little unless we can point to Ivan in that era drawing well, which we can do in a sense with Patera in the early stages of the boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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