WON HOF 2013 discussion

[W2BTD]

This all comes down to preference, but the fact is, he's going to get in (whether it's this year or next or the one after), and it will be predicated mostly on his work. Because that's the style of work the HOF workers generally prefer. And he's a top level worker who churns out classic after classic, every time out, and is on a historical run of doing so.

He works a style that HOF workers prefer?

 

I didn't know he works like Steamboat. Or Stevens. Or Destroyer. Or Jumbo. Or Kawada in his prime. Or Debiase (who in 1996 got in for his work). Or...

 

Serious, how many HOF Workers work like Tanahashi?

 

I mean, I helped select and/or voter for the overwhelming majority of the HOF Workers in the WON HOF. There's a slight disconnect if say 50%+ (i.e. generally prefer) don't strike me as working Tanahashi-style.

 

John

 

I'll tell you what.

 

He's getting in.

 

And most of the guys goodhelmut just posted, including "working genius" Buddy Rose, are never getting in. Three of them won't for sure.

 

So yeah. That's what i'm talking about when I say the voters are much higher on his work than they are of the niche fetishism examples being thrown around here.

 

That may be hard to swallow, but hey, it is what it is. This isn't even some "who is better" circular argument anymore. It's now about what the voters actually do.

 

Somebody like Regal is not going to sniff the HOF. Neither will Rose. Tanahashi is getting in, bank on it, and based on the passive aggressive bashing of his drawing ability, you tell me why it's going to happen. I'll give you one guess.

[Timbo Slice]

I'm on my phone at this point so I'm going to just sit back and enjoy some popcorn while I watch this develop.

 

Carry on.

[W2BTD]

It's a strawman, because I have no issue with that era of All Japan, and I in fact agree with your assessment of it as the gold standard of modern wrestling.

How does the fact you agree with this point make it a "strawman" argument? Do you even understand what that means? It's a legitimate argument, made in good faith, that addresses your point directly. It's not a "strawman."

 

on a historical run of doing so.

What makes this a "historical run?" What does historical even mean in this context?

 

What is the standard for determining who is eligible to vote? Some of the voters seem to be proxy votes sought out to validate certain opinions. They don't seem to be people grounded in a historical appreciation of wrestling.

 

To your first point, it's a strawman to say he'd be the 12th best worker in All Japan, even if I agreed with it (I don't), because I like most of those guys a great deal and think most of them belong in the HOF. So who cares?

 

To the second point, historical in this context means his historical run of incredible matches. Roughly two straight years of elite caliber main events that have blown away everything else in the world. Which, you don't happen to agree with. Fine. You can like whatever you want, man. My point, is that 60% of HOF voters probably do agree, and will either this year or one of the next couple.

[Phil Schneider]

I love the niche fetishism slam in a discussion about a US pro-wrestling hall of fame run by a mimeographed newsletter, and whether the wrestling performance of a Japanese guy people watch on youtube is better the some other Japanese guys other people watched on duplicated traded video tapes. It is all fucking niche.

[goodhelmet]

I don't give a shit if he is getting in. I am more interested in the question posed above... what does Tanahashi do better than those guys? Once your historical draw argument is debunked, you are left with work.

 

Also, hate to break it to you bro but once you become a wrestling fan who obsesses over great matches, reads news letters, seeks footage out from around the world and writes about it on a message board... it is all niche fetishism.

[goodhelmet]

Fucking Phil stealing my thunder!!!!

[W2BTD]

I don't give a shit if he is getting in. I am more interested in the question posed above... what does Tanahashi do better than those guys? Once your historical draw argument is debunked, you are left with work.

There is no point addressing this. Seriously. People like different things. I can list stuff, and it won't matter.

 

EDIT - also, I never, ever called him a "historical draw". Don't know where you got that or if it was even being attributed to me.

 

Also, hate to break it to you bro but once you become a wrestling fan who obsesses over great matches, reads news letters, seeks footage out from around the world and writes about it on a message board... it is all niche fetishism.

Fine.

 

Niche fetishism within a niche.

 

Sigh.

 

Anyway, I knew this would happen. I like this site because I genuinely enjoy the alternate perspectives, so i'm bowing out unless somebody posted while I was posting this, and i'll politely respond.

[Jimmy Redman]

The point you seem to be missing is that people understand and accept that Tanahashi is going in the WON HOF, presumably this year. A majority of WON HOF voters think he's awesome. Fine. Nobody is saying he isn't.

 

What everyone is asking is for you, personally, as representing a majority WON HOF voter, to explain what it is you like about Tanahashi, what makes him so special that he's a no-brainer inductee halfway through his defining run. You can act like your opinion will be dismissed, and it may well be, but you may as well actually give your reasons. You're the one who came in with "Top 5 Big Match Worker" and all that stuff, so it's not like people are asking out of the blue. You offered the big statements, we just want you to explain why.

 

As someone who doesn't hate Tanahashi, but certainly does not buy into him being a great wrestler at all, I'm always interested in hearing the arguments for him. Because otherwise, I really don't get it.

[goodhelmet]

If you make the claim he has the best matches in the world right now, why are you reluctant to back that claim up with a couple of reasons they are the best matches going? What does he do better in those matches that Rose, Murdoch, Morton, etc. do in their best matches?

 

You can list stuff and it will matter because this isn't the Observer board. You can have disagreements, argue with people, and people will actually pay attention to what you say without generating a flame war (for the most part). If you make blanket statements and then refuse to list the stuff that backs up those statements, why make the statements at all? Fuck, start a Tanahashi appreciation thread and generate the love. It started in the Cena vs. Tanahashi thread but petered out. Hell, do a Gordy list on Tanahashi and refute the claims made by jdw and others.

 

You are right that he probably will get in the Hall of Fame someday if not this year. It doesn't actually validate your opinion he is great and worthy but it can also just reinforce the notion that the Hall of Fame rules themselves are flawed as jdw and others have pointed out in this thread.

 

Also, at this point, I may change my name (or yours) to Niche Fetishism. Contact me for your Niche Fetishism comps.

[goodhelmet]

Fucking shit Jimmy.. stealing thunder again.

[rvd356]

The All Japan thing is a strawman here, because I have no issue with the All Japan guys, think the ones that are in belong, and would vote for a few others that aren't.

How is it a "strawman"? You said he might be one of the best wrestlers of all-time. I'll suggest, with respect, that he doesn't have shit on Tsuyoshi Kikuchi. His matches aren't as over, don't draw as many people and aren't as good as the matches in classic AJPW, which is the gold standard of modern pro wrestling.

 

No one really measures to that standard today. Which is fine. No one is Michael Jordan. But this guy isn't LeBron James. He's Harold Minor.

 

Damn I didn't wanna say it but I also prefer Kikuchi. I just couldn't get into the Tanahashi matches. He's a "draw" compared to NOAH and All Japan, if we're talking 2013, but all time, not even close. I just don't get his appeal, and with all the old NJPW, All Japan etc on Youtube I just have no reason to watch anything new. Am I the only one that prefers KENTA to Tanahashi?

 

And as for "Top 5 big match workers", I'm not even sure he's having "big matches".

[rvd356]

And honestly, why does everyone care about some random writers Hall of Fame? Ill be honest, my first exposures to the 'IWC' was IGN Wrestling & Scott Keith back in 2000 when I got back into wrestling after being turned off by Mania 15. I was mildy amused by Keith, while almost never agreeing with his ratings and opinions.

 

That was basically it except for reading 411 & IGN boards untill last year when I found this board. And basically I've had second hand stuff from you guys about Dave and while I disagree on some majority opinions here(I like Angle for one) I just don't see why everyone follows him so closely when his opinions are so opposite to this place.

 

Can someone link me to a list of who is in this HOF? And tell me how Tanahashi can go in before Dick Murdoch? Please

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think Tanahashi has accomplished nearly enough to warrant HOF inclusion, and I'm increasingly indifferent toward him in general. But I find it interesting that pro-Tanahashi posters are expected to make the case for him in exhaustive detail while anti-Tanahashi ones can get away with expressing generalities.

[Timbo Slice]

I don't think Tanahashi has accomplished nearly enough to warrant HOF inclusion, and I'm increasingly indifferent toward him in general. But I find it interesting that pro-Tanahashi posters are expected to make the case for him in exhaustive detail while anti-Tanahashi ones can get away with expressing generalities.

I don't think it's so much generalities as it is that the people who are anti-Tanahashi have already hashed out the opinions either earlier in this thread, the Tanahashi vs. Cena thread, etc.

[ohtani's jacket]

What's the best Tanahashi/Okada match? I've never seen a Tanahashi match in my life.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think Tanahashi has accomplished nearly enough to warrant HOF inclusion, and I'm increasingly indifferent toward him in general. But I find it interesting that pro-Tanahashi posters are expected to make the case for him in exhaustive detail while anti-Tanahashi ones can get away with expressing generalities.

I don't think it's so much generalities as it is that the people who are anti-Tanahashi have already hashed out the opinions either earlier in this thread, the Tanahashi vs. Cena thread, etc.

 

I haven't seen much hashing out in either this thread or the Cena/Tanahashi one. The most substantive argument I've seen is that his offense looks weak.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think those who are anti-Tanahashi would be happy to go into exhaustive detail if asked. The other guy was asked to give his side and kept dodging, is I think the thing here.

 

It feels like the conversation is getting away from the HOF itself, I think we need a Tanahashi thread if people really want to hash this out.

[jdw]

I'll tell you what.

 

He's getting in.

 

And most of the guys goodhelmut just posted, including "working genius" Buddy Rose, are never getting in. Three of them won't for sure.

 

So yeah. That's what i'm talking about when I say the voters are much higher on his work than they are of the niche fetishism examples being thrown around here.

Niche fetishism? You do realize that puroresu is a niche fetishism within a niche fetishism of hardcore fandom?

 

It's basically lesbian porn within the large niche industry of porn. New Japan 2013 is Girlfriend Films, and Tanahashi is Prinzzess.

 

So your meme of knocking other niches within the industry that folks like is pretty laughable. I mean, I get it. I use to be a hardcore fan who was a Flair Fan in the 80s and 90s, enjoyed looking down my nose at those silly WWF workers like Hogan, and it made me feel all warm and fuzzy will in the Forum with 2000 fans while Hogan was over at the Sports Arena drawing 14000. We all need what makes us feel warm and fuzzy, and justifies what we hold dear about niches within the niche.

[jdw]

Fucking Phil stealing my thunder!!!!

Which is why I went with a niche fetishism example, knowing Phil wouldn't.

[W2BTD]

I'll tell you what.

 

He's getting in.

 

And most of the guys goodhelmut just posted, including "working genius" Buddy Rose, are never getting in. Three of them won't for sure.

 

So yeah. That's what i'm talking about when I say the voters are much higher on his work than they are of the niche fetishism examples being thrown around here.

Niche fetishism? You do realize that puroresu is a niche fetishism within a niche fetishism of hardcore fandom?

 

It's basically lesbian porn within the large niche industry of porn. New Japan 2013 is Girlfriend Films, and Tanahashi is Prinzzess.

 

So your meme of knocking other niches within the industry that folks like is pretty laughable. I mean, I get it. I use to be a hardcore fan who was a Flair Fan in the 80s and 90s, enjoyed looking down my nose at those silly WWF workers like Hogan, and it made me feel all warm and fuzzy will in the Forum with 2000 fans while Hogan was over at the Sports Arena drawing 14000. We all need what makes us feel warm and fuzzy, and justifies what we hold dear about niches within the niche.

 

When I say niche fetishism, i'm knocking this idea of bringing up people like Buddy Rose & Bill Dundee in the context of discussing great workers getting into the WON HOF on work & work alone, which is what people have done here.

 

There is a total lack of self awareness around here when people do that, because this is like the only corner in the universe where people pimp that hard for guys like that. Which is fine, but you have to understand who votes, who they vote for, and what the voting patterns are.

 

Of course this wrestling nonsense is all one big niche. No shit. But nobody can't tell me that Buddy Rose would be a first ballot HOF'er based on work & work alone (something that was really posted here in a non ironic way, which is mind blowing), when not only did he not get in on his first try (when others did), but he's off the ballot entirely and will never get in. Then you have Bix saying Rose as a working genius is not an outlier opinion. Again, I call bullshit. At least in the context of WON HOF voters, which is what this thread is about. Otherwise, if he was a true working genius he would have been voted in a long time ago, or at minimum on the ballot floating in purgatory with Sting & Curt Hennig.

 

So you guys can keep driving the focus to the perceived insult of the niche fetishism comment, but it's absolutely true when describing the opinions of certain wrestlers here, and there is a lack of self awareness attached to that. That's not meant as an insult, even though I can see where it comes off as one. In fact, that's the reason I post (well, mostly lurk, as you can see why I don't post very often) here. I come here for those opinions, and enjoy them.

 

Anyway, I knew this would turn negative in a hurry. That's why I chose not to continue. I don't feel the need to make a super detailed case when it will be a colossal waste of time anyway. You have goodhelmet asking me to compare 70's territory heels to a 2013 New Japan style worker, which is dumb and makes no sense. The fact I don't think Buddy Rose or Dick Murdoch can lace Tanahashi's boots is enough for me to know that even if it was possible to construct that type of argument, it will just lead to more circular arguing that goes nowhere. I mean, what does Tanahashi do in the ring better than Murdoch? I don't know, aside from virtually everything except conveying the old ragged bar fighter aura? What do you want me to say? It's a loaded question as our opinions are clearly vastly different.

 

What i'm saying here, which nobody seems to be picking up on, is that my opinions on Tanahashi happen to fall more in line with a typical voter. Something you didn't even bother trying to rebut, because honestly you can't unless Tanahashi gets 8% or something, and we know that isn't happening.

 

There are segments of people who don't like Misawa matches, too. Too many head drops. There are pockets of people who think Flair is repetitive and overrated. And people who don't get Tanahashi. The last group happens to reside here. That's fine. But have some semblance of self awareness. This is all i'm saying. I don't particularly like Jumbo matches and I think Barry Windham is incredibly average, but I also recognize that i'm the oddball.

[W2BTD]

I also hate that i'm being backed into a corner where I have to say bad things about Buddy Rose, because while i'm not nearly as high on him as some of you are, I enjoy the fuck out of his Portland stuff, and to a lesser extent, the AWA stuff as well.

[Jimmy Redman]

Again, maybe this is better suited to a Tanahashi thread and not in here as pertains to HOF voting, but W2BTD, forget for a minute the question of HOF voting, or comparing Tanahashi to whatever wrestlers you don't want to compare him to. I'm still, and I doubt I'm the only one, very interested in the actual case for Tana, on his own merits. It may sound like a completely obvious question to you, but to me and others here it isn't, because we don't see what you see in him. So I genuinely want to hear from the pro-side, for my own interest.

 

What do you like about him? What things does he do well? What makes him more special than other great wrestlers of his era? What are his best matches and why? It's not enough to just say "everything" and "all of them" here, as if it is self-explanatory, because it really isn't.

 

If you aren't interested in going through him or wrestling in that much detail, then fine, but this is kind of the place for it, and when you throw statements around that end in "of all time", it's something that wants exploring. And it's fine if you don't want to explore it, but don't blame that on everyone else dismissing your arguments when you haven't actually made any yet.

[Timbo Slice]

Just as a heads up:

 

Hiroshi Tanahashi Microscope Thread

 

This thread is already off the rails a bit. Might as well move the discussion that way.

[cm funk]

RE: Tanahashi I just stick to my argument that nobody that young and in the prime of their career should ever even be a candidate. It's stupid. And if Tanahashi gets in in 2013 it just continues the horrible precedent st when Angle, HHH, Cena were voted in. None of them belonged on the ballot when they did. That doesn't mean they aren't HOF talent, it was just way too soon to nominate them. I could never vote for Tanahashi today above other candidates, and if he gets voted in it's sad and an indictment of the whole process really

[W2BTD]

What do you like about him? What things does he do well? What makes him more special than other great wrestlers of his era? What are his best matches and why? It's not enough to just say "everything" and "all of them" here, as if it is self-explanatory, because it really isn't.

-What he does well: Match pacing. In this regard, I view him as essentially flawless. I can not recall a Tanahashi match that I have thought went too long or did not go long enough. He always hits the sweet spot, and has an uncanny ability to hit is peaks at the right times.

 

He is a great babyface who clearly connects with the audience. His record as a draw is knocked around these parts for not stacking up to the past, but it is clear that New Japan has turned around with him on top, as attendance, revenue, and iPPV numbers can confirm this. He is not an elite draw, but he is a good one, and greatly responsible for New Japan's resurgence. What you think that is worth is up to you, I find it relevant enough to be part of the picture for sure.

 

-What makes him more special than other great wrestlers of his era: A streak of delivering in big match main events that hasn't been matched in many years, if not ever. If you don't like the style, I suppose you can stop reading now. Nothing I say can convince you. The Okada series is the best modern series of matches since Misawa/Kobashi, and i've had serious debates with myself that it may be better. As some may know I review all New Japan shows for my website, and I have rated three of these matches 5-stars this year alone, as I felt they were perfect. Believe it or not, I am a hard marker when it comes to this. I've doled out one other 5-star rating in my entire life to this point. And despite the off handed passive aggressive insults tossed toward me in this thread, i'm no kid and not new to wrestling or puro for that matter.

 

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, a mark of a great worker to me is how many people they carried to the best match of their career. Off the top of my head, I would say definitively that Okada, Karl Anderson, Minoru Suzuki, Yujiro Takahashi, & Tetsuya Naito have had the best match of their career vs Tanahashi, and that's just in the last calendar year. Some would argue Tomohiro Ishii, but I preferred the Ishii match against Shibata. Many would also argue Nakamura, but I prefer modern Nakamura matches to his previous incarnation and I think Nakamura has topped his Tanahashi matches since with other people, but I am the minority. The only other wrestler of this era who consistently delivers in this area is Daniel Bryan, who had match after match in 2006 onward that were easily the best match of this opponents career, including with mediocre workers like Jimmy Rave, Delirious etc. So this is clearly an area that to me sets Tanahashi apart for nearly everybody else in this era.

 

Tanahashi was also instrumental in creating a new superstar in Okada, who has now started to prove himself as a draw on his own. Okada was a complete non entity that flopped badly on the Dome show in 2012 when he returned from excursion, and thanks to his great series of matches with Tanahashi, he's a bonafide star. Tanahashi just did the same thing for Naito in the G1 Finals, and it appears Naito is well on his way to joining Okada. So this ticks the influence box, as does his working style, which is clearly being emulated by many in Japan, much to the likely chagrin of people here who don't dig modern Japan.

 

There are little things. A few months ago, he had the best lumberjack match i've ever seen with Devitt. Wasn't a great match, but i've never enjoyed a lumberjack match ever, except for that one. His G1 performance this year was fantastic. Night after night, delivering great matches with his entire block, when positioned in the main or semi most every night while others got "nights off" by being placed in prelims. Tanahashi was expected to work hard and have his standard of match every night, and delivered. And did it twice on the final day, one being what I thought was a five star draw with Okada, and then the star maker with Naito. All six of the Okada matches are great, and all were worked differently. One was a 30 minute draw, another saw Tanahashi work heel, one saw heavy arm work on Okada to take out the Rainmaker, etc.

 

And I have barely touched on the first part of his career, where he was having great matches that nobody paid attention to because New Japan was struggling.

 

So there you go. Nothing super in depth, but some basic bullet points to show where myself & others are coming from.