WON HOF 2013 discussion

[Dylan Waco]

Fuck it, my net is out as mentioned before, but if Joe wants to come on me and Dave's show for a civil discussion about this I am 100 percent up for it, and I'm sure I can con Dave into it. It may take a few days, but I'd love to have him on

[cheapshot]

Fuck it, my net is out as mentioned before, but if Joe wants to come on me and Dave's show for a civil discussion about this I am 100 percent up for it, and I'm sure I can con Dave into it. It may take a few days, but I'd love to have him on

+1 for this.

[concrete1992]

I have no vote so what does my opinion matter but screw it.

 

-Yeah, I'd say he has good case for being a draw. Really hard to nail this one down with a lack of sell-outs and being able to point to the drop of NOAH and AJPW as faults of their own and that Tana didn't keep them up but NJPW just didn't do something crazy dumb. Difficult to tell but I personally feel it is unfair to give him some credit for that. Not selling out Sumo Hall non-G1 I'm not going to use that as the definitive test of his drawing ability.

 

-Lots of guys have gotten in by wok alone. Could Tanahashi? I'd say he has as good a shot as any as making it in on this front THOUGH I don't agree with the standard to get in this way. As a main eventer for the #1 promotion in Japan I'd like to see him go for at least another 2-4 years before I would consider this the way to get him in. Saying that a lot of voters think he's great? That's really an argument that is completely boosted depending on the results. I'd say I agree but I'm not perfectly sure.

 

-Top 5 big match wrestler ever? Don't agree but this is a subjective point.

 

-Buddy Rose and Bill Dundee? This doesn't have so much to do with Tanahashi's case? Nevermind then

 

Would I vote for Tanahashi? Not now. When you have a good deal of career still ahead I feel it is unfair to set a standard for HOF that this much of his career is worth being in a HOF. To me it feels like letting a Michael Jordan in the Basketball HOF after '93. Did he have a case after winning 3 NBA championships and 3MVPs? Yeah but then he goes on and wins another 3 of both. Maybe not a 1:1 comparison but for me it feels like why not let the career play out more and have a full resume to judge.

 

Oh and Joe on WC would be bad ass.

[Dylan Waco]

Name the guys who you think got in on work alone, because I think there is a disconnect there.

 

The problem with Tanahashi as a draw is that he is being framed by some as the reason for the NJPW turn around and the NJPW turn around is being framed by some as a unreal achievement. On the first point it's debatable because the company was stumbling for years with him on top. On the second point we are way to early in the process to tell how much they have really turned things around. The Sumo stat is worth mentioning because A. it gives you an indication of how overhyped this vaunted turnaround has been and B. I'm not sure if we could name anyone else who has been touted as an ace of a hugely successful promotion (and Tanahashi absolutely has in some quarters), who never sold out what is basically the promotions "go to" arena.

[concrete1992]

To me, I'd say Jericho, Benoit, and Angle are examples of it.

 

And I agree with the turn around being framed in an unrealistic manner. NJPW maintaining its status while others have dropped so low shouldn't be COMPLETELY off the table. I think the Sumo stat more helps argue how isn't the driving force of a massive turn around than being a solid or consistent draw in the top promotion in a top region for a decent amount of time.

[jdw]

Ay W2BTD, please stop doing the podcaster equivalent of of subtweeting. It's kind of lame: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...power-struggle/

 

Also lame? Calling me out at the F4W board over something I posted here.

Yes - lame.

[jdw]

But the categories are wide aren't they? As Chad outlined.

Yes. The same guy who is an expert on Tanahashi also has to be an expert when it comes to the Sharpe Brothers and Sakaguchi.

 

"You might very well say that, I couldn't possibly comment."

 

[FedEx227]

To me, I'd say Jericho, Benoit, and Angle are examples of it.

 

And I agree with the turn around being framed in an unrealistic manner. NJPW maintaining its status while others have dropped so low shouldn't be COMPLETELY off the table. I think the Sumo stat more helps argue how isn't the driving force of a massive turn around than being a solid or consistent draw in the top promotion in a top region for a decent amount of time.

At what point though do you start attributing massive success on iPPV to Tanahashi? If him not being able to sell out Sumo is seen a detrement, doesn't being the top guy in a promotion doing fantastic numbers on iPPV have to count positively?

[Dylan Waco]

To me, I'd say Jericho, Benoit, and Angle are examples of it.

 

And I agree with the turn around being framed in an unrealistic manner. NJPW maintaining its status while others have dropped so low shouldn't be COMPLETELY off the table. I think the Sumo stat more helps argue how isn't the driving force of a massive turn around than being a solid or consistent draw in the top promotion in a top region for a decent amount of time.

At what point though do you start attributing massive success on iPPV to Tanahashi? If him not being able to sell out Sumo is seen a detrement, doesn't being the top guy in a promotion doing fantastic numbers on iPPV have to count positively?

 

It matters. The problem is it's too early to tell how much

[jdw]

Snowden hit everything on the head with his last post....give me more of a career to look at before I vote for you.

That's me as well when it comes to Tanahashi. Same thing with Trip and Angle at the time.

 

John

[FedEx227]

And as I mentioned during the podcast and have mentioned on other boards, I totally understand this argument and largely agree.

[Timbo Slice]

It doesn't matter that there is a ton of iPPV success. PPVs are PPVs. It's the medium that's different. NJPW is just taking advantage of a medium they didn't have before. That's not necessarily because of Tanahashi, especially considering that there have been plenty of iPPVs without him on top.

[jdw]

You mentioned Akiyama earlier, I'll be honest, I'd consider Jun much more strongly than Tanahashi because I think he was a better worker, but also because his drawing record - flawed as it has been at times and terrible as it may be in 2013 alone - is stronger as a body than Tanahashi's.

There is some humor in the fact that Jun in 2001/2002 and again in 2003 put up drawing numbers in NJPW that Tanahashi has never matched.

 

I tend to think that Jun bombed as a successor/heir to Misawa when given repeated chances. But if we apply the "That's a tough standard for Tanahashi to be forced to match" rule when comparing Tanahashi's success to when New Japan was actually a successful company... well, Jun kind of does pretty okay. Dittos Sasaki, who I think is wildly overrated as a draw and have pointed it out in earlier threads this year.

[jdw]

It doesn't matter that there is a ton of iPPV success. PPVs are PPVs. It's the medium that's different. NJPW is just taking advantage of a medium they didn't have before. That's not necessarily because of Tanahashi, especially considering that there have been plenty of iPPVs without him on top.

I also think that some people are taking claims of numbers in the range of 100K with a massive grain of salt.

 

John

[Bix]

Nobody who was a territorial star is going to get in as a workrate candidate other than maybe Red Bastien.

 

Again, here are the wrestlers who were voted in that can be seen as going in solely on work:

 

Aja Kong

Akira Hokuto

Bull Nakano

Chris Benoit

Chris Jericho

Eddy Guerrero

Hiroshi Hase

Jushin Liger

Kenta Kobashi

Kurt Angle

Manami Toyota

Shawn Michaels

Ultimo Dragon

 

There are additional arguments for some of them (and you have to take note of when they were inducted, as Kobashi didn't have the long Noah run as champion when he went in), but I think we can agree that everyone on this list was a workrate candidate, more or less. There are 13 wrestlers on this list. 8 are Japanese. Benoit's formative training was in the NJPW dojo and he made his mark there as a junior heavyweight. Jericho first made his name in Mexico and Japan plus his career inextricably linked to Benoit: A Benoit match got Jericho his job in WCW and they had their first great WWF matches with each other. Eddy was similar.

 

They only ones completely removed from magical international workrate land are Michaels, a guy who stood out as the best worker in a company with a lot less great workers and Angle, he of the go-go-go style. Only Michaels worked the territories but wasn't any kind of star until they had died off. The first class had very few candidates who would be seen as primarily going in for work, and the only ones who were American territorial stars were Ted DiBiase and Ricky Steamboat, both of whom became national names after the expansion.

 

An American territorial star just isn't going to go in on work. That's just not the perception of the voting pool, and I'm going to blame Dave a little bit for that with how much he discourages evaluating older wrestlers with hindsight on newly found footage and that type of stuff. American territorial stars aren't seen as "great workers" to that degree to where enough of the non-wrestler voters (and even some of the wrestler voters) are going to vote them in. It has nothing to do with merit as much as, along with some other factors, Japan has always been the land of escapism for five star matches to get away from those dastardly cartoon angles that clueless American promoters force on us.

 

After the WWF expansion and especially the dark period for American wrestling in the early to mid '90s, Japanese wrestling wasn't just something cool to check out anymore. Disillusioned fans were sold on Japanese wrestling (or ECW or SMW or ROH or AAA during their boom period) because it was a current alternative. Nobody was pushing "Hey, watch some old wrestling" because there wasn't a lot you could track down and the focus was always on an alternative and thus something relatively current.

 

When most of the voting pool thinks of "great workers," they're going to put Japan first because that's where they went for great wrestling when American wrestling sucked. Watching a lot of older wrestling, as a thing, is an incredibly recent phenomenon, as in the last 10 years for DVDs and the last 5 for YouTube. A whole lot of footage came out of the woodwork and technology changed: DVDs were incredibly cheap and could be duplicated quickly without quality loss. YouTube and other sites allowed people to enjoy old wrestling for free. If you wanted to spend your time watching older wrestling, there was a ceiling to it financially and in terms of how much you'd be able to find, so it was never the alternative.

 

Hell, aside from Ric Flair matches, territorial footage was rarely pushed as something you checked out for the in-ring action. The focus was on angles. Memphis wasn't really thought of as a place to look for great matches in part because nobody thought there was anything to dig up. World Class tapes were heavy on the famous angles and skits. The awful "every title changes hands" episode UWF TV was considered an all-time great installment of wrestling television programming. And so on. Japanese wrestling was happening "right now," with all sorts of home videos and eventually special shows on a magical all-wrestling network allowing everyone to see full matches so TV time constraints weren't an issue much of the time in the '90s.

 

Obviously it'll be different for younger fans, but old territory footage was always the lowest priority behind Japan, ECW, SMW, AAA, workrate indies, etc, and the lack of complete matches of note meant it wasn't a destination for "workrate" fans. That carries over now, so:

 

Even if Buddy Rose had great matches every week where he had to constantly be on his toes and mix things up due to the limited roster, the main house show being on TV, and the same fans being at the live show every week, he's not going to be seen as a candidate based on work because he wasn't a "great worker" as the hardcore newsletter reading fans are concerned, especially due to how little footage was available.

 

Dundee was a little more on the radar of newsletter fans because of how hot Memphis was among tape traders and even had matches on Jeff Bowdren's top matches of the '80s list, but because he was a Tennessee wrestler doing Tennessee style matches that weren't traded around a lot, he's not seen as a "great worker" by writers and wrestling people couldn't carry him either because so many saw "Tennessee" as a dirty word.

 

And that doesn't even touch on what Will and I mentioned earlier about wrestlers who will refuse to vote for certain wrestlers for reasons having nothing to do with merit.

[Bix]

It doesn't matter that there is a ton of iPPV success. PPVs are PPVs. It's the medium that's different. NJPW is just taking advantage of a medium they didn't have before. That's not necessarily because of Tanahashi, especially considering that there have been plenty of iPPVs without him on top.

I also think that some people are taking claims of numbers in the range of 100K with a massive grain of salt.

 

John

 

And while it's impressive if it's legit, I do find myself wondering if they would've done similar numbers proportionate to the overall level of business if such a service was available years earlier. Obviously it's an unfair comparison, but IMO there's a pretty decent argument for it just being proof that the market was always there and was untapped due to the lack of cable/satellite penetration, which would say more about the technology than anything else.

[mookeighana]

I went back and tried to update some of my NJPW Draw Analysis: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-1999-2013.html

 

My fundamental question is that while the iPPV business might be good, and hopefully is driving huge profits for the company, core attendance (for shows between 1,000 and 10,000) has been flat for years.

 

 

There might be an uptick for 2013 as the start of a new trend after almost seven years, but it's really too early to tell. (My data uses the possibly worked attendance numbers from Purolove NJPW results through Sept 2013.)

 

I'm still pretty unsophisticated in understanding the dynamics of Japanese wrestling, so it's possible that I am getting sidetracked on this attendance thing (and trying to use artificial metrics like "place on card") to drive my guesses for who are the major players; however, as has been pointed out by others, it seems like we're down substantially from even 1999-2001 era.

 

Then again, WWE PPV buys are down from the 1999-2001 era so perhaps I'm over-focusing on a single metric as a gauge of company health.

[Jimmy Redman]

On the Angle/Eddie/Jericho group of guys, as far as it being on work alone, it's fair to say, and I think Dave pointed it out in every case, that they all only got in after having main event runs in WWE, and reaching that level of stardom was an important push to get them over the line for a lot of people.

 

I think it would be impossible for anyone to get in on work, at least from the US, without having a main event or otherwise notable run as a star somewhere. It's not even becoming a big draw necessarily, but just appearing to have a certain level of stardom. I don't think you can therefore say that those guys got in solely on work. It was work+.

 

I think an interesting test for a 'solely work' guy would have been Danielson IF he didn't go to WWE and reach the main event. But now that he has, he's in the same category as the others. People are putting them in for work, but they also want to see them reach a certain level as well.

[mookeighana]

I went back and tried to update some of my NJPW Draw Analysis: http://indeedwrestling.blogspot.com/2013/1...-1999-2013.html

 

My fundamental question is that while the iPPV business might be good, and hopefully is driving huge profits for the company, core attendance (for shows between 1,000 and 10,000) has been flat for years.

 

 

There might be an uptick for 2013 as the start of a new trend after almost seven years, but it's really too early to tell. (My data uses the possibly worked attendance numbers from Purolove NJPW results through Sept 2013.)

 

I'm still pretty unsophisticated in understanding the dynamics of Japanese wrestling, so it's possible that I am getting sidetracked on this attendance thing (and trying to use artificial metrics like "place on card") to drive my guesses for who are the major players; however, as has been pointed out by others, it seems like we're down substantially from even 1999-2001 era.

 

Then again, WWE PPV buys are down from the 1999-2001 era so perhaps I'm over-focusing on a single metric as a gauge of company health.

Dave's response to my question on "why uptick if attendance is flat?" regarding NJPW attendance: @davemeltzerWON

 

"Company switched for usual Japan fake #s to more real #s with new owner. Biz actually up about 45% y-to-y"

"For example, the 29,000 Dome would have been announced at 50,000 other years."

[W2BTD]

Ay W2BTD, please stop doing the podcaster equivalent of of subtweeting. It's kind of lame: http://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/11/0...power-struggle/

 

Also lame? Calling me out at the F4W board over something I posted here.

Yes - lame.

 

First of all, we already hashed out that Bix was mistaken, as the post I copy & pasted and called him out on at the Observer board was indeed something he posted on the Observer board. Apparently he posted it in both places. Try to keep up.

 

Second, with all due respect, I will talk about whatever the hell I want on my show. If that's lame, so be it.

 

Now on to a bunch of things in the thread.

 

RE: iPPV success. See, this is what i'm talking about when I say that there is massive hoop jumping going on to not credit the guy for anything. Since when do we not credit the top star & top babyface (which Tanahashi unquestionably is) for things like this? And I have to bring up the point Rich made on another board that we touched on during my lunatic rant on the podcast - how can you say New Japan just "accidentally" stumbled onto a new technology, with Tanahashi as a guy along for the ride, when Dragon Gate & W-1 have also stumbled into that same technology, yet nobody gives a shit and nobody is ordering those shows? Not to mention the non apples to apples comparisons like ROH or Evolve or *insert North American company here*. If we are going to concede that the success is real, and that profits are up 500% this year largely as a result, then you pretty much have to attribute that, at leas somewhat, to Tanahashi's drawing power. We also have to concede that Okada is now a draw as well (especially when you look at the non New Japan house he drew with Ibushi), and again, that's due in large part to Tanahashi putting him over after a long feud where he was able to get over the idea that they were equals. Maybe some of you just don't have your finger on the pulse of modern puro and how this all went down, in fact I would bet on that for a few of you specifically, but this can't be ignored imo.

 

Whether it is part of a HOF worthy overall package is another argument entirely, but to hem & haw and refuse to give credit to the guy for some of these successful metrics, yet jump on him for 90% capacity buildings in some cases (what a bum!), is where things end up looking dubious to me.

 

If iPPV was just a matter of finally having the technology, Dragon Gate would be having at least a modicum of success as well. And Dragon Gate does very well at the gate for their big shows in big buildings, sells out Koakuen twice a month or whatever, has the great TV deal with Gaora, and clearly has a following in the country.

 

RE:Akiyama - I am on record as saying I would probably vote for him. Need no convincing there.

 

RE Bix's long post on workrate inductees: Basically this sums up the point I've been trying to make all along, that a guy like Tanahashi has a much better chance of getting on on work & work alone than some of the (I wont use the phrase of death again because it was taken the wrong way) candidates talked about here. This is really all I was saying all along. He falls more in line with what your typical voter would consider a "great worker".

[Timbo Slice]

RE: iPPV success. See, this is what i'm talking about when I say that there is massive hoop jumping going on to not credit the guy for anything. Since when do we not credit the top star & top babyface (which Tanahashi unquestionably is) for things like this? And I have to bring up the point Rich made on another board that we touched on during my lunatic rant on the podcast - how can you say New Japan just "accidentally" stumbled onto a new technology, with Tanahashi as a guy along for the ride, when Dragon Gate & W-1 have also stumbled into that same technology, yet nobody gives a shit and nobody is ordering those shows? Not to mention the non apples to apples comparisons like ROH or Evolve or *insert North American company here*. If we are going to concede that the success is real, and that profits are up 500% this year largely as a result, then you pretty much have to attribute that, at leas somewhat, to Tanahashi's drawing power. We also have to concede that Okada is now a draw as well (especially when you look at the non New Japan house he drew with Ibushi), and again, that's due in large part to Tanahashi putting him over after a long feud where he was able to get over the idea that they were equals. Maybe some of you just don't have your finger on the pulse of modern puro and how this all went down, in fact I would bet on that for a few of you specifically, but this can't be ignored imo.

 

Whether it is part of a HOF worthy overall package is another argument entirely, but to hem & haw and refuse to give credit to the guy for some of these successful metrics, yet jump on him for 90% capacity buildings in some cases (what a bum!), is where things end up looking dubious to me.

 

If iPPV was just a matter of finally having the technology, Dragon Gate would be having at least a modicum of success as well. And Dragon Gate does very well at the gate for their big shows in big buildings, sells out Koakuen twice a month or whatever, has the great TV deal with Gaora, and clearly has a following in the country.

NJPW didn't just happen upon the technology. As I said before, the big feds would go through their TV deals to run their biggest shows. The PPV market was not untapped because they didn't want to use it. It was because they had been doing things the way they had for 20 years. NOAH had G+. AJPW and NJPW had Samurai and wXw. You are mistaking the iPPV numbers that are being claimed BECAUSE Tanahashi is on top, when in reality, it's a shift in how the big shows are being presented to the viewers from TV to PPV format. That's not due to Tanahashi. That's due to NJPW shifting how they present their product.

[rovert]

CONGRATULATIONS TANA!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YNasRFM9to

[W2BTD]

RE: iPPV success. See, this is what i'm talking about when I say that there is massive hoop jumping going on to not credit the guy for anything. Since when do we not credit the top star & top babyface (which Tanahashi unquestionably is) for things like this? And I have to bring up the point Rich made on another board that we touched on during my lunatic rant on the podcast - how can you say New Japan just "accidentally" stumbled onto a new technology, with Tanahashi as a guy along for the ride, when Dragon Gate & W-1 have also stumbled into that same technology, yet nobody gives a shit and nobody is ordering those shows? Not to mention the non apples to apples comparisons like ROH or Evolve or *insert North American company here*. If we are going to concede that the success is real, and that profits are up 500% this year largely as a result, then you pretty much have to attribute that, at leas somewhat, to Tanahashi's drawing power. We also have to concede that Okada is now a draw as well (especially when you look at the non New Japan house he drew with Ibushi), and again, that's due in large part to Tanahashi putting him over after a long feud where he was able to get over the idea that they were equals. Maybe some of you just don't have your finger on the pulse of modern puro and how this all went down, in fact I would bet on that for a few of you specifically, but this can't be ignored imo.

 

Whether it is part of a HOF worthy overall package is another argument entirely, but to hem & haw and refuse to give credit to the guy for some of these successful metrics, yet jump on him for 90% capacity buildings in some cases (what a bum!), is where things end up looking dubious to me.

 

If iPPV was just a matter of finally having the technology, Dragon Gate would be having at least a modicum of success as well. And Dragon Gate does very well at the gate for their big shows in big buildings, sells out Koakuen twice a month or whatever, has the great TV deal with Gaora, and clearly has a following in the country.

NJPW didn't just happen upon the technology. As I said before, the big feds would go through their TV deals to run their biggest shows. The PPV market was not untapped because they didn't want to use it. It was because they had been doing things the way they had for 20 years. NOAH had G+. AJPW and NJPW had Samurai and wXw. You are mistaking the iPPV numbers that are being claimed BECAUSE Tanahashi is on top, when in reality, it's a shift in how the big shows are being presented to the viewers from TV to PPV format. That's not due to Tanahashi. That's due to NJPW shifting how they present their product.

 

This is like saying we cant credit Hogan for doing well on PPV because Vince finally came around on using it.

 

Hey, if that's how you feel, fine. But to me that's a terrible, terrible, argument.

 

(and before somebody derails this baby, no, I am not comparing Tanahashi to Hogan)

[KrisZ]

It was an all foreign class, with Japanese women's wrestling promoter Takashi Matsunaga in his first year ever on the ballot, going in with almost landslide numbers. Others in are France's Henri Deglane, who was profiled in last week's issue, as well as Mexico's Dr. Wagner Sr. and current CMLL headliner Atlantis, and Japan's Kensuke Sasaki and New Japan top star Hiroshi Tanahashi, the latter coming off two straight Wrestler of the Year awards. Deglane, the first Olympic gold medalist in wrestling who became a major world champion and was among the most important figures in the history of wrestling in Montreal, Boston and Paris. Wagner Sr. had been close in the voting for several years and only missed by one vote last year; as did Sasaki. Atlantis and Tanahashi, both of whom spent the past year active in main events, gained significant ground over last yaer.

 

Unlike last year, where there were five extremely close calls, this year there was only one, the case of Carlos Colon, who came one vote shy this year after being two votes shy last year.

[Bix]

Re: IPPV: Like I said, it would be completely unfair to say it's all the technology if the numbers are legit, but it's something that should be given at least a small amount of consideration when it being given none. Have there been any remotely solid figures for DG and W-1 yet? I thought I heard the DG shows were doing well.

 

And the U.S. indies are absolutely not apples to apples: The only company we've any gotten any numbers for was ROH and we have no idea how many of those people were buying DVDs at the same rate the IPPVs are going on. These are tiny companies, the IPPVs could very well be successes relative to their size. WWE tops out at something like 10,000 worldwide for WrestleMania, but in the primary market, it's a pointless exercise for anyone with cable/satellite because the prices are fixed to be the same as the traditional version. Everywhere else it's artificially limited by the time difference.