KrisZ Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Tanaka benefited on that early run with Bruno as there weren't a whole lot of challengers then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 1977: Where was he? Comes back to the US to work for WWA and work the monthly St. Louis shows again. Goes to CWF in March and stays there all year but still works St. Louis and also does spot shows in Chicago for the AWA and in Indianapolis for WWA (where he had the title). Busy year for Ivan OR he was doing this sort of thing before 1977 too but the site doesn't have the data for it. What was his positioning on the card? Main event Sample cards: Date Friday, 1977/03/25 Venue St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Audience 8.873 1 Kay Noble and Donna Christanello defeated Jean Antone and Vicky Williams 2 Pat O'Connor defeated Bulldog Bob Brown by disqualification 3 Ernie Ladd defeated Red Bastien 4 High Flyers (Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell) defeated Ox Baker and Jimmy Valiant 5 NWA Missouri Heavyweight Title Match Jack Brisco © defeated Billy Graham by countout 6 Texas Death Match Dick the Bruiser defeated Ivan Koloff Date Friday, 1977/05/06 Venue St. Louis, Missouri (United States of America) Audience 5.740 1 Bulldog Bob Brown defeated Jerry Kozak 2 High Flyers (Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell) defeated Lord Alfred Hayes and Bull Bullinski 3 Billy Robinson defeated Bulldog Bob Brown by disqualification 4 AWA World Tag Team Titles Match Blackjack Lanza and Bobby Duncum © defeated Pat O'Connor and Rocky Johnson 5 Billy Graham vs. Dick the Bruiser ended without a winner as a no contest 6 NWA Missouri Heavyweight Title Match Jack Brisco © defeated Ivan Koloff Date Tuesday, 1977/05/03 Venue Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida (United States of America) 1 Tony Rocco defeated Jack Armstrong 2 Raúl Mata vs. Skip Young ended without a winner as a time limit draw 3 Bob Ellis defeated Gordon Nelson 4 Steve Keirn defeated Crusher Verdu 5 Ox Baker defeated Mike Graham 6 NWA Florida Tag Team Titles Match Jack Brisco and Jerry Brisco © defeated Hans Schroeder and Siegfried Stanke 7 Florida Heavyweight Title Match Buddy Wolff © defeated Ernie Ladd 8 Ivan Koloff defeated Dusty Rhodes Date Saturday, 1977/08/06 Venue Indianapolis, Indiana (United States of America) 1 El Bracero defeated Bob Golden 2 Steve Regal defeated Jerry Jaffee 3 Barbi Dahl defeated Madame X 4 Spike Huber defeated Leo Seitz 5 The Big Whiz defeated Dr. Jerry Graham 6 Ivan Volkoff vs. Paul Christy ended without a winner as a time limit draw 7 WWA World Heavyweight Title Match Ivan Koloff © defeated Wilbur Snyder 8 Dick the Bruiser and Little Atlas defeated The Valiants (Jimmy Valiant and Johnny Valiant) Date Saturday, 1977/08/20 Venue International Amphitheater in Chicago, Illinois (United States of America) 1 Bob Backlund vs. Jan Nelson ended without a winner as a time limit draw 2 Chris Markoff defeated Spike Huber 3 Angelo Mosca defeated Pedro Morales 4 Billy Robinson defeated Ivan Koloff by disqualification 5 AWA World Tag Team Titles Match High Flyers (Greg Gagne and Jim Brunzell) © vs. The Valiants (Jimmy Valiant and Johnny Valiant) ended without a winner as a no contest 6 AWA World Heavyweight Title Match Nick Bockwinkel © defeated Ray Stevens by disqualification 7 The Super Destroyer defeated Dick the Bruiser by disqualification Date Wednesday, 1977/08/31 Venue Jai Alai Fronton in Miami, Florida (United States of America) Audience 3.762 1 Mike York defeated Gordon Nelson 2 Tony Rocco defeated Butcher Vachon 3 Masa Saito defeated Charlie Cook 4 Steve Keirn and Jerry Brisco defeated Tony Marino and Buddy Roberts 5 Jack Brisco defeated Lars Anderson by disqualification 6 Rocky Johnson defeated Keith Franks 7 Dusty Rhodes and Don Muraco vs. Ivan Koloff and Pat Patterson ended without a winner as a no contest Date Saturday, 1977/10/08 Venue St. Petersburg, Florida (United States of America) 1 Wilhelm Ruska defeated Mike York 2 Charlie Cook defeated Dutch Mantell 3 Buddy Roberts and Keith Franks defeated Raúl Mata and Don Serrano 4 Steve Keirn defeated Super Destroyer 5 Mike Graham defeated Tony Marino 6 Jerry Brisco defeated Tank Patton 7 Ivan Koloff and Masa Saito defeated Jack Brisco and Rocky Johnson 8 Lars Anderson defeated Don Muraco 9 Battle Royal Ivan Koloff defeated Buddy Roberts and Charlie Cook and Don Serrano and Dutch Mantell and Jack Brisco and Jerry Brisco and Keith Franks and Masa Saito and Mike Graham and Mike York and Raúl Mata and Rocky Johnson and Steve Keirn and Super Destroyer and Tank Patton and Tony Marino and Wilhelm Ruska 10 NWA World Heavyweight Title Match Pedro Morales defeated Harley Race © by disqualification Date Tuesday, 1977/12/27 Venue Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida (United States of America) 1 Don Serrano vs. Dutch Mantell ended without a winner as a time limit draw 2 Jerry Brisco defeated Tank Patton 3 Princess Little Dove defeated Diamond Lil 4 Pedro Morales defeated Buddy Roberts 5 Ivan Koloff and Masa Saito defeated Mike Graham and Steve Keirn 6 Rocky Johnson and Don Muraco defeated Killer Karl Kox and Lars Anderson by disqualification Notable opponents: Wilbur Snyder, Dick the Bruiser, Jack Brisco, Dusty Rhodes, Ernie Ladd, Don Muraco, Mike Graham, Steve Kiern, Rocky Johnson -------- Wow. Ivan had a surprisingly hot year in 1977 during which he seems like he had a million things going on. He tagged with both Pat Patterson (as CWF tag champs) and Masa Saito in Florida, and boy would I like to see some of those matches. CWF look like they booked him very strongly -- you can see the one card I've picked out there where he pulls double duty and wins a tag match vs. Brisco and Johnson and a battle royale on the same show. He was being treated like a big deal again in St. Louis. At the same time he was WWA champ. AND working these Chicago cards for the AWA -- although curiously he's still in that upper-midcard slot for them. One of his strongest years so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 My collection is waaaay out of date compared to what Kris will have, but I found these... 11/28/75 1. Ricky Hunter d. Kantaro Hoshino 2. Seiji Sakaguchi d. Bearcat Wright 3. Ivan Koloff/Greg Valentine d. Antonio Inoki/Strong Kobayashi Koloff d. Kobayashi 18:18 Inoki d. Valentine 9:04 12/5/75 (taped 12/4/75) 1. Billy Robinson d. Strong Kobayashi 2. Antonio Inoki/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Ivan Koloff/Greg Valentine Inoki d. Valentine 16:08 Sakaguchi d. Valentine 8:01 8/27/76 1. Antonio Inoki d. Karl Steiger 10:03 2. Strong Kobayashi/Seiji Sakaguchi DQ Superstar Billy Graham/Ivan Koloff 9/3/76 1. Antonio Inoki d. Blackjack Mohs 10:10 2. Strong Kobayashi/Seiji Sakaguchi d. Superstar Billy Graham/Ivan Koloff 11/12/76 1. Ivan Koloff d. Osamu Kido 2. Larry Hennig/Pat Patterson d. Antonio Inoki/Strong Kobayashi 1. Inoki d. Hennid 21:55 2. Hennig DQ Inoki 4:14 3. Patterson DQ Inoki 2:18 11/19/76 1. Ivan Koloff/Ricky Hunter d. Strong Kobayahsi/Seiji Sakaguchi 2. Antonio Inoki d. Pat Patterson 10:09 11/26/76 (taped 11/25/76) 1. Larry Hennig/Pat Patterson d. Strong Kobayashi/Seiji Sakaguchi 2. Antonio Inoki vs. Ivan Koloff no contest 15:18 12/3/76 (taped 12/2/76) 1. Larry Hennig/Pat Patterson d. Osamu Kido/Seiji Sakaguchi 2. Antonio Inoki d. Ivan Koloff 19:30 3/3/78 1. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Canadian 2. Ivan Koloff/El Canek d. Riki Choshu/Osamu Kido 3. Antonio Inoki d. Masked Superstar by DQ 7:02 3/10/78 1. Ivan Koloff d. Haruka Eigen 2. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Ron Starr 3. Roberto Soto/Masked Superstar d. Antonio Inoki/Osamu Kido 3/31/78 (taped 3/30) 1. Tatsumi Fujinami d. Ivan Koloff 2. Antonio Inoki d. Masked Superstar 24:58 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Here is Claw's record book. Hisa adds a bunch of Japanese stuff later. http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/14118-1.html I hadn't checked Hisa's site in years. Looks like he's uploaded all kinds of 70s-80s Japanese results. http://www.puroresu.com/results/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 A few thoughts on these data dumps (thanks a ton to Chris and Hollinger) and how they relate. One of the reasons I explicitly made my focus major market main events (with a conservative interpretation of what qualified as such a thing) is that I didn't want to give the impression that all title shots are created equal. For example it is novel and interesting that the WWWF booked heel Graham v. heel Patera in Portland, Maine but that's ultimately what it is - novel. I don't want to trash the idea that the smaller show title defenses had no meaning because that would be false, but you expect those to be filled out a lot of the time by place holders or steady hands or homesteading heels (not that those guys didn't get their big market runs as well). In any case I think people need to keep that sort of thing in mind when they are thinking about why certain names pop up so much. Monsoon and George Steele are homesteaders and their totals should be thought about in that light. Not saying dismiss them, but that has to be noted. My recollection is that Tanaka was basically a homesteader too, but I could be wrong. Guys who come out of this worth thinking about studying more Waldo Von Erich, Don Muraco, Greg Valentine. I'm not advocating for any of them (well not here at the moment anyway), but I think it would be useful to study and look at their best runs more closely. Don and Greg having two really solid runs in non-consecutive years is interesting to me (and really always has been) and Waldo's monster year opposite Bruno looks really impressive in the year by year breakdown, without diving into the context. One thing about Patera that this doesn't show up here is that he worked Bruno an awful lot in main events that occurred when Bruno wasn't the champ both in the 77 and 80 runs. The 77 run looks more underwhelming than it really was as a result. In fact if you look at Graham's main challengers (Jay Strongbow? Putski? Garea?) one can make a reasonable argument that Bruno/Patera was much better "support" and helping carry the territory a lot more than the popular narrative suggests. The 80 run is actually even better than it looks on paper which brings me to.... This illustrates really well just how epic Patera's run in 1980 was. I don't want to say that it was unprecedented are beyond the pale - Killer Khan topped his total number of title matches the next year and Orton nearly equaled it two years later (though it would be interesting to see how many of these were major market matches). But consider the following. - When Patera wasn't wrestling for the title he was in a hot feud with Bruno that played in the big markets. - He won the I-C title that year and defended it in main events around the territory as well. - He worked the Kiel seven times, headlining four times and winning the Missouri title. Two of the headlining matches were against Race, one for the NWA title, another was a title defense against Kevin Von Erich and the fourth was when he dropped the title to Ted Dibiase. The non-headlining matches were semi-mains against Von Erich and Backlund in a WWWF title match and a match third from the top against Ted the month before Ted took the belt from him. In any case the point was that he was a major deal in St. Louis that year. - Backlund and Patera went on the road to Maple Leaf, St. Louis and Greensboro for title matches. - Look at how he compares to others. During the territorial era exactly two guys got more title shots in a single year then him - Waldo Von Erich in 65 and Killer Khan in 81. Monsoon equaled his total in 64. But it's not just that. Look at the distribution of title shots. The only guy who is above him is Waldo again with 39 total shots, to Bill Miller's 20 in second place. Patera had 34 title shots to Duncum's 17. No other spread surpasses 12 in the territory era and during Backlund's era nothing is even close to that. I don't think that means a ton without knowing the context, but knowing the context I think that is extremely impressive. I still can't figure out how the fuck I was so far off on Patera title shots. I have no clue how that happened, but it only helps his case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Ivan stayed there until July 1976 where he would make New Japan his homebase for the rest of the year not working anywhere in North America the last 5 months of 1976. These were his well documented tours with New Japan: 10/24/75 - 12/11/75 New Japan 08/27/76 - 10/07/76 New Japan 10/29/76 - 12/09/76 New Japan 03/03/78 - 03/30/78 New Japan I'd have to pull out some of the reference books to see if he worked those full series. I do know that he joined the 1975 one midway through. It's not clear that he worked the second half of the first one in 1976, or the first half of the second one in 1976. That wasn't uncommon back in those days, especially for longer series: gaijin would work part of it, though some might work the whole thing. My guess on the last four months of 1976: Ivan was working other shots in addition to New Japan. That's just what guys did: work as many dates as they could. He may have worked a month-and-half in Sep-Oct with some promotion that lined up nicely (i.e. close) to Japan, such as Pacific Northwest, Los Angeles, San Fran, NZ, or even working dates in Korea for Ohki... who knows. For everyone like this, there are always going to be lots of missing dates, not just within promotions (we are missing a ton of his WWWF dates), but also promotions missing entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 1978: Where was he? Same deal as 77 (CWF, WWA, St. Louis, Chicago AWA cards) until May when he moves to Georgia and for whatever reason stops working St. Louis, WWA and AWA. In October, he goes back to WWWF for the rest of the year. What was his positioning on the card? Main event or semi-main [see note] Sample cards: Date Wednesday, 1978/01/25 Venue Orange Bowl in Miami, Florida (United States of America) Keith Franks defeated John Ruffin 2 Bobby Duncum defeated Don Serrano 3 Chavo Guerrero defeated Tank Patton 4 Rocky Johnson defeated Killer Karl Kox by disqualification 5 Battle Royal Joyce Grable defeated ??? 6 Ivan Putski defeated Ox Baker 7 NWA Southern Heavyweight Title (Florida-Version) Match Pedro Morales © defeated Lars Anderson 8 NWA Florida Tag Team Titles Match Jack Brisco and Jerry Brisco defeated Ivan Koloff and Masa Saito © - TITLE CHANGE!!! 9 NWA United States Tag Team Titles (Florida-Version) Match Mike Graham and Steve Keirn © defeated The Valiants (Jimmy Valiant and Johnny Valiant) 10 Dusty Rhodes defeated Ken Patera by countout 11 NWA World Heavyweight Title Match & WWWF World Heavyweight Title Match Billy Graham © vs. Harley Race © ended without a winner as a time limit draw Date Saturday, 1978/04/08 Venue International Amphitheater in Chicago, Illinois (United States of America) 1 Evan Johnson vs. Spike Huber ended without a winner as a time limit draw 2 Killer Verdu defeated El Bracero 3 Wilbur Snyder defeated Bobby Vann 4 Dominic DeNucci vs. Jimmy Valiant ended without a winner as a time limit draw 5 Billy Robinson defeated Ivan Koloff 6 Bob Orton Jr. defeated Verne Gagne by disqualification 7 Angelo Mosca and Ernie Ladd defeated Dick the Bruiser and Rufus R. Jones by countout Date Tuesday, 1978/05/09 Venue Fort Homer Hesterly Armory in Tampa, Florida (United States of America) 1 NWA United States Tag Team Titles (Florida-Version) Match Mike Graham and Steve Keirn © defeated Bobby Duncum and Killer Karl Kox 2 Florida Heavyweight Title Match Jack Brisco © defeated Ivan Koloff 3 NWA Southern Heavyweight Title (Florida-Version) Match Tiger Conway Jr. defeated Dick Slater © by disqualification 4 NWA Florida Television Title Match Jerry Brisco © defeated Len Denton 5 NWA Florida Tag Team Titles Match Masa Saito and Yoshino Sato © defeated Pedro Morales and José Azzari 6 Dusty Rhodes defeated The Spoiler Date Wednesday, 1978/06/07 Venue Municipal Auditorium in Columbus, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Hartford Love vs. Len Denton 2 Helmut Schmidt vs. Pez Whatley 3 Adrian Adonis vs. King Kong Mosca 4 NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff vs. Tommy Rich and Thunderbolt Patterson © 5 Abdullah the Butcher vs. Stan Hansen Date Monday, 1978/07/31 Venue Bell Auditorium in Augusta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Ken Dillinger defeated Barry Orton 2 The Challenger defeated Roger Howell 3 Rick Martel and Rick McGraw defeated Hartford Love and Ken Dillinger 4 No Disqualification Match Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff defeated Tommy Rich and Stan Hansen Date Tuesday, 1978/08/22 Venue Macon Coliseum in Macon, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Randy Alls defeated Billy Starr 2 Rick Martel defeated The Challenger 3 Sonny King defeated Rick McGraw 4 Thunderbolt Patterson defeated Dr. X 5 Texas Death Match - NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Dick Slater and Stan Hansen defeated Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff © by disqualification 5 Texas Death Match Thunderbolt Patterson defeated Angelo Mosca Date Saturday, 1978/11/04 Venue Boston Garden in Boston, Massachusetts (United States of America) 1 Johnny Rodz defeated Joe Cagle 2 Dave Darrow defeated Tony Russo by disqualification 3 Silvano Sousa defeated Frankie Williams 4 Dino Bravo defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna 5 Dominic DeNucci vs. Victor Rivera ended without a winner as a time limit draw 6 Bruno Sammartino defeated Billy Graham by countout 7 WWWF World Tag Team Titles Match Yukon Lumberjacks (Lumberjack Eric and Lumberjack Pierre) © defeated Chief Jay Strongbow and Peter Maivia 8 WWWF World Heavyweight Title Match Ivan Koloff defeated Bob Backlund © by countout Date Wednesday, 1978/12/06 Venue St. Finbar School in New York City, New York (United States of America) 1 Crusher Blackwell vs. Tony Russo ended without a winner 2 Spiros Arion defeated Johnny Rodz 3 Chief Jay Strongbow defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna 4 Ivan Koloff defeated Dino Bravo by countout 5 WWWF World Tag Team Titles Match Tony Garea and Larry Zbyszko © defeated Crusher Blackwell and Lumberjack Pierre by disqualification Notable opponents: Jack Brisco, Jerry Brisco, Billy Robinson, Tommy Rich, Adrian Adonis, Thunderbolt Patterson, Stan Hansen, Mr. Wrestling II, Bob Backlund, Dino Bravo ------------ CWF were running some insanely stacked cards early in 78 so Ivan's matches with Jack Brisco are in the middle of those cards, but it's hard to imagine they were truly mid-card matches. In the Georgia run, he's mostly in the semi-main, but it should be noted that he was holding the tag titles with Ole Anderson and the tag title match consistently seems to be put in that semi-main slot with a singles match to finish. The prospect of the Ole / Ivan vs. Hansen / Slater feud is positively mouthwatering -- I can only imagine how awesome those brawls would have been. Back in New York, he's naturally taking on Backlund but also looks like he's feuding with Dino Bravo when not in the title matches. Not quite as strong as his 77, but still a pretty strong looking year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 One thing about Patera that this doesn't show up here is that he worked Bruno an awful lot in main events that occurred when Bruno wasn't the champ both in the 77 and 80 runs. The 77 run looks more underwhelming than it really was as a result. In fact if you look at Graham's main challengers (Jay Strongbow? Putski? Garea?) one can make a reasonable argument that Bruno/Patera was much better "support" and helping carry the territory a lot more than the popular narrative suggests. The 80 run is actually even better than it looks on paper which brings me to.... No doubt. I was really underwhelmed by Superstar's run once I really started looking at it. Was more a case of throwing popular mid tier babies at him that were never going to go over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 I started trying to pull together a list of only A & B market results, but gave up because I couldn't really sort out what the markets were in the 60s. I figured NYC, Philly, Toronto and Boston for A. DC, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New Haven for B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Ivan stayed there until July 1976 where he would make New Japan his homebase for the rest of the year not working anywhere in North America the last 5 months of 1976. These were his well documented tours with New Japan: 10/24/75 - 12/11/75 New Japan 08/27/76 - 10/07/76 New Japan 10/29/76 - 12/09/76 New Japan 03/03/78 - 03/30/78 New Japan I'd have to pull out some of the reference books to see if he worked those full series. I do know that he joined the 1975 one midway through. It's not clear that he worked the second half of the first one in 1976, or the first half of the second one in 1976. That wasn't uncommon back in those days, especially for longer series: gaijin would work part of it, though some might work the whole thing. My guess on the last four months of 1976: Ivan was working other shots in addition to New Japan. That's just what guys did: work as many dates as they could. He may have worked a month-and-half in Sep-Oct with some promotion that lined up nicely (i.e. close) to Japan, such as Pacific Northwest, Los Angeles, San Fran, NZ, or even working dates in Korea for Ohki... who knows. For everyone like this, there are always going to be lots of missing dates, not just within promotions (we are missing a ton of his WWWF dates), but also promotions missing entirely. I've got quite a bit of results from PNW/LeBell/Shire from the end of 1976 and he's nowhere to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 One thing about Patera that this doesn't show up here is that he worked Bruno an awful lot in main events that occurred when Bruno wasn't the champ both in the 77 and 80 runs. The 77 run looks more underwhelming than it really was as a result. In fact if you look at Graham's main challengers (Jay Strongbow? Putski? Garea?) one can make a reasonable argument that Bruno/Patera was much better "support" and helping carry the territory a lot more than the popular narrative suggests. The 80 run is actually even better than it looks on paper which brings me to.... These are examples in his 70s run: WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 17, 1977 Ken Patera defeated WWWF World Champion Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) via count-out at 19:54 after hitting Bruno with a chair as he was climbing onto the apron after they briefly fought on the floor (Patera's MSG debut) WWWF @ New York, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 7, 1977 WWWF World Champion Bruno Sammartino fought Ken Patera to a draw in a Texas Death Match after the referee was knocked out WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - March 7, 1977 WWWF World Champion Bruno Sammartino defeated Ken Patera when guest referee Gorilla Monsoon stopped the match due to blood loss WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - August 29, 1977 WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham defeated Ivan Putski via count-out at 18:01 after the challenger was backdropped to the floor Bruno Sammartino (w/ Arnold Skaaland) pinned Ken Patera in a Texas Death Match at 12:13 by kicking off the corner, as Patera had a full nelson applied, and falling backwards onto his opponent WWWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - May 22, 1978 WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund pinned Ken Patera at 21:06 with an inside cradle ------------------ WWWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - April 16, 1977 WWWF World Champion Bruno Sammartino defeated Ken Patera via disqualification WWWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - September 19, 1977 Bruno Sammartino defeated Ken Patera via referee's decision in a Texas Death Match WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham defeated Chief Jay Strongbow in a steel cage match after Strongbow threw the champion against the fence near the door and turned away just long enough for Graham to slide out the door WWWF @ Boston, MA - Boston Garden - March 6, 1978 WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund defeated Ken Patera via count-out ----------------------------- WWWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - June 4, 1977 (13,797) Bruno Sammartino fought Ken Patera to a double disqualification when both men began to box one another WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham pinned Chief Jay Strongbow at 10:07 WWWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - July 9, 1977 (15,602) Bruno Sammartino defeated Ken Patera when guest referee Gorilla Monsoon stopped the bout at 15:27 due to loss of blood WWWF World Champion Superstar Billy Graham pinned Tony Garea at 18:52 WWWF @ Philadelphia, PA - Spectrum - March 25, 1978 WWWF World Champion Bob Backlund fought Spiros Arion to a double disqualification at 17:49 after Arion's leg knocked referee Dick Whorle to the floor as Backlund lifted the challenger up for the atomic drop, with the two men then brawling until other wrestlers - including Chief Jay Strongbow, Peter Maivia, Stan Stasiak among them - came out to break up the fight; moments later, Whorle was taken backstage on a stretcher; Backlund and Arion then continued to fight until it was again broken up by the other wrestlers Bruno Sammartino fought Ken Patera to a double count-out at 16:24 ----------------- So 08/29/77 in MSG, what's the draw: Superstar against Putski, or Bruno finally getting his blow off win against Patera after not doing it in the three title matches earlier in the year? The 09/19/77 Boston Garden match, we could toss that up: title match in the cage against a second tier babyface or Bruno Match against a Patera that he didn't beat cleanly earlier in the year? That's really a double main event. In the Spectrum, Bruno vs Patera never happened in a Title Match. It happened twice on cards where Superstar defended against 2nd and 3rd tier babyfaces (good god... Tony Garea?!?!), and once where new champ Backlund was defending against a Arion. This is a bit like the 06/92 Budokan where Hansen vs Kawada was for the Triple Crown and Jumbo & Taue vs Misawa & Kobashi was for the World Tag Titles. Which was the main event? Patera is hardly the only one who benefits from that, as others were in that spot. Bruno vs Larry was the drawing match in their feud. If in 1980 you had a card with Bruno vs Larry and Bob vs Patera for the WWF Title, it would be fair to call it a double main event because Bob vs Patera *also* was a drawing feud that had a lot of heat. But Bruno vs Larry supported by Bob vs a Samoan? We all know what the main event was there. It's a bitch to go card by card and do that, and there are times when we just might not know what was hotter: a 1986 card with Savage vs Tito and Dream Team vs Bulldogs, both title matches. That... I'd kind of go double main since they were both "hot" in a sub-Hogan sense within the promotion. But either of those matches on a card beneath a Hogan Match? Of course the Hogan Match was the main event. Like I say, it's a bitch do sift through them, and the WWF in the later part of the 80s was running so many cards that you had a C-show type of a main event, and figuring out which feud was the top one of the bunch could be even harder. Anyway... point somewhere in there... Patera probably hard 33% to 50% more true main events / co-main events on those major arena cards that we'd get to by just adding up title challenges. In turn, guys like Strongbow, Putski and Garea... if we really looked at the cards where they were they are credited as the "main event", we'd find collectively 33% to 50% in the major arena cards being as suspect as the examples above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 1979: Where was he? We're moving into the period now that we've covered on the Titans shows. What those shows won't tell you however is that he actually works WWF and GCW co-currently with the bulk of the dates for Georgia, only going up to New York for big matches -- until about August. After this, still with GCW as his base, he does a few spot shows for Mid-South too. What was his positioning on the card? Main event Sample cards: Date Saturday, 1979/02/17 Venue The Spectrum in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania (United States of America) 1 Johnny Rodz defeated Tony Russo 2 Allen Coage defeated Mike Hall 3 Tatsumi Fujinami defeated Baron Mikel Scicluna 4 Peter Maivia defeated Dominic DeNucci 5 Lou Albano, Jimmy Valiant and Johnny Valiant defeated Tony Garea, Larry Zbyszko and Ivan Putski 6 Steel Cage Match - WWWF World Heavyweight Title Match Bob Backlund © defeated Ivan Koloff 7 Victor Rivera defeated Tony Altimore 8 Greg Valentine defeated SD Jones 9 Steve Travis defeated Stan Stasiak Date Friday, 1979/03/02 Venue Atlanta City Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Dennis Hall defeated Rick Oliver 2 Raymond Rougeau defeated Kurt Von Hess by disqualification 3 No Disqualification Match Blackjack Lanza vs. Tommy Rich ended without a winner as a time limit draw 4 NWA Georgia Television Title Match Ole Anderson © defeated Rufus R. Jones 5 No Disqualification Match Stan Hansen vs. Wahoo McDaniel ended without a winner as a time limit draw 6 NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match The Masked Superstar © defeated Tony Atlas 7 Lights Out Russian Chain Match Ivan Koloff defeated Dusty Rhodes Date Sunday, 1979/04/01 Venue Macon Coliseum in Macon, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Rufus R. Jones defeated Larry Latham 2 Ron Bass defeated Rufus R. Jones 3 Angelo Mosca vs. Tommy Rich ended without a winner as a time limit draw 4 Wahoo McDaniel defeated Blackjack Lanza 5 Mr. Wrestling #1 defeated The Masked Superstar 6 No Disqualification Match - NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff © defeated Stan Hansen and Bob Armstrong Date Friday, 1979/06/08 Venue Atlanta City Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Mike Stallings defeated Mike Hammer 2 Ray Candy defeated Doug Somers 3 NWA Georgia Television Title Match Blackjack Lanza © defeated Tony Atlas 4 No Disqualification Match The Masked Superstar defeated Bob Armstrong 5 Dusty Rhodes defeated Kurt Von Hess 6 No Disqualification Match - NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff defeated Tommy Rich and Wahoo McDaniel © - TITLE CHANGE!!! Date Wednesday, 1979/07/04 Venue Municipal Auditorium in Columbus, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Gen'ichiro Tenryu vs. John Wolfe 2 Ben Alexander vs. Jerry Stubbs 3 Bill Howard vs. Ray Candy 4 Killer Karl Kox vs. Tony Atlas 5 Anything Goes Match - NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match The Masked Superstar vs. Wahoo McDaniel © 6 No Disqualification Match (Special Referee: Ray Candy) - NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff © vs. Stan Hansen and Tommy Rich Date Friday, 1979/07/20 Venue Atlanta City Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Mike Stallings defeated Ben Alexander 2 Coconut Willie defeated Little Tokyo 3 Bob Armstrong defeated Killer Karl Kox by disqualification 4 NWA Georgia Television Title Match Ray Candy defeated Blackjack Lanza © by disqualification 5 Indian Strap Match - NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match Wahoo McDaniel © defeated The Masked Superstar 6 Lights Out Match Tommy Rich and Dusty Rhodes defeated Ole Anderson and Ivan Koloff Date Friday, 1979/09/21 Venue The Omni in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Bobby Jaggers defeated Chick Donovan 2 Buzz Sawyer defeated Carl Fergie 3 Rick Oliver and Jonathan Boyd defeated Ricky Fields and Bill Dromo 4 Bob Armstrong defeated Toru Tanaka 5 NWA Georgia Television Title Match The Sheik defeated Ray Candy © 6 Tony Atlas defeated Killer Karl Kox 7 Cage Match - NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Tommy Rich and The Crusher defeated Ivan Koloff and Ole Anderson © - TITLE CHANGE!!! 8 Lights Out Match Bill Watts defeated Ernie Ladd Date Tuesday, 1979/11/27 Venue Macon Coliseum in Macon, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Bobby Jaggers vs. Buzz Sawyer ended without a winner as a time limit draw 2 Killer Khan defeated Bret Hart 3 Ivan Koloff defeated Ricky Fields 4 Ray Candy and Tony Atlas defeated The Heenan Family [2] (Killer Karl Kox and The Masked Superstar) 5 NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match Tommy Rich © defeated Austin Idol 6 Lights Out Match Ivan Koloff vs. Ole Anderson - winner unknown Date Wednesday, 1979/11/14 Venue Jackson, Mississippi (United States of America) 1 Angelo Mosca and Tank Patton vs. Hércules Ayala and Mark Totten 2 Charlie Cook vs. Junkyard Dog 3 Bill Watts vs. Ivan Koloff 4 Mike George and Bob Sweetan vs. Buck Robley and Mr. Wrestling #2 Date Friday, 1979/12/07 Venue Atlanta City Auditorium in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Ricky Fields defeated Bobby Jaggers 2 Killer Khan defeated Buzz Sawyer 3 Thunderbolt Patterson defeated Tom Shaft 4 No Disqualification Match - NWA Georgia Television Title Match Ray Candy © defeated Killer Karl Kox 5 Jack Brisco defeated Austin Idol 6 NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ivan Koloff and Alexis Smirnoff defeated Ole Anderson and Jerry Brisco © - TITLE CHANGE!!! 7 NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match The Masked Superstar defeated Tommy Rich © - TITLE CHANGE!!! Notable opponents: Bob Backlund, Dusty Rhodes, Stan Hansen, Wahoo McDaniel, Genichiro Tenryu ------------ This amazingly tasty-looking Ole/Ivan vs. Hansen feud continues in GCW for in the early part of the year and is elevated to the main event. Then, Dusty gets added to the mix. And then both Tommy Rich and Wahoo McDaniel. Through the summer they face any combination of Hansen, Rich, Wahoo and Dusty in various gimmick matches all of which I'd kill to see. These matches all take place on the top of the card unlike in 78 when the tag matches were semi-main. Ole and Ivan lose the titles to Rich and the Crusher in September and after this Ole turns face and feuds with Ivan in main event matches. Around this time he also works dates in Mid-South vs. Bill Watts. In December, he starts tagging with Alexis Smirnoff with whom he promptly wins the titles back vs. his former partner Ole and long-term rival Jack Brisco. On paper, the Georgia stuff looks awesome. The New York dates are actually rather sparse during this time. A handful of dates each month, usually against Backlund or Putski. I have no idea if any of this is on tape, but in my imagination it is blow-away awesome. 1979 was another very strong year for Ivan. On top in Georgia for the whole year with the luxury of working WWF title matches vs. Backlund for most of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 1980: Where was he? First 6 months in Georgia, June to September in CWF, Mid-Atlantic for the rest of the year, plus New Orleans supercards for Mid-South What was his positioning on the card? Main event or semi-main [GCW, MACW], Main event [CWF], Sample cards: Date Monday, 1980/01/07 Venue Bell Auditorium in Augusta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Battle Royal Wendi Richter defeated ??? 2 Steve Travis defeated Eddie Mansfield 3 Ole Anderson and Thunderbolt Patterson defeated Toru Tanaka and Killer Khan 4 Tony Atlas defeated Tom Shaft 5 Mr. Wrestling #2 defeated Austin Idol 6 NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Ivan Koloff and Alexis Smirnoff © defeated Jack Brisco and Jerry Brisco 7 Cage Match The Masked Superstar defeated Tommy Rich 8 Key on a Pole Cage Match Ole Anderson defeated Ivan Koloff Date Sunday, 1980/03/09 Venue The Omni in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Jay Strongbow defeated Charlie Fulton 2 Lone Eagle defeated Billy the Kid 3 Ernie Ladd defeated Ray Candy 4 Tony Atlas defeated Killer Khan 5 Kevin Sullivan defeated Baron Von Raschke by disqualification 6 Battle Royal Winona Little Heart defeated ??? 7 Ivan Koloff and Alexis Smirnoff defeated Lars Anderson and Stan Hansen 8 Mr. Wrestling #2 defeated Austin Idol 9 Dusty Rhodes and Wahoo McDaniel defeated Funk Brothers (Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr.) Date Sunday, 1980/06/08 Venue The Omni in Atlanta, Georgia (United States of America) 1 Bob Sweetan defeated Mike Sharpe 2 Eddie Mansfield defeated Don Diamond 3 Terry Taylor defeated Eddie Gilbert 4 Dutch Mantell defeated Tony Charles 5 Eddie Mansfield defeated Terry Taylor 6 Kevin Sullivan defeated Eddie Mansfield 7 NWA Georgia Junior Heavyweight Title Match Kevin Sullivan defeated Dutch Mantell - TITLE CHANGE!!! 8 Mark Lewin defeated Tommy Rich 9 NWA Georgia Heavyweight Title Match Baron Von Raschke defeated Austin Idol © - TITLE CHANGE!!! 10 NWA Georgia Tag Team Titles Match Minnesota Wrecking Crew (Ole Anderson and Lars Anderson) defeated Ivan Koloff and Alexis Smirnoff © - TITLE CHANGE!!! 11 NWA World Tag Team Titles (Mid-Atlantic-Version) Match Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood © defeated Assassins [5] (Assassin #1 and Assassin #2) 12 NWA World Heavyweight Title Match Harley Race © defeated Mr. Wrestling #2 Date Wednesday, 1980/07/16 Venue Miami, Florida (United States of America) 1 Gordon Nelson defeated Frank Monte 2 Lord Alfred Hayes defeated Scott McGhee 3 Jim Garvin defeated Geoff Portz 4 Bobby Jaggers defeated Bubba Douglas 5 Dick Slater defeated Mr. Florida 6 Jack Brisco and Jerry Brisco defeated Masa Saito and The Super Destroyer 7 Nikolai Volkoff and Don Muraco defeated Bugsy McGraw and Barry Windham 8 Cage Match Ivan Koloff defeated Dusty Rhodes Date Sunday, 1980/08/24 Venue Orlando, Florida (United States of America) 1 The Super Destroyer, Masa Saito and Bill White vs. Jack Brisco, Jerry Brisco and Mike Graham 2 Bobby Jaggers vs. Jim Garvin 3 NWA Florida Television Title Match Barry Windham © vs. Lord Alfred Hayes 4 Florida Heavyweight Title Match Bugsy McGraw © vs. Dick Slater 5 NWA Florida Tag Team Titles Match Dusty Rhodes and Dick Murdoch vs. Ivan Koloff and Nikolai Volkoff © Date Friday, 1980/10/10 Venue Knoxville, Tennessee (United States of America) 1 Nick DeCarlo vs. Tony Russo 2 Ben Alexander vs. Don Kernodle 3 Sheepherders (Butch Miller and Luke Williams) vs. Buzz Sawyer and Matt Borne 4 Ivan Koloff vs. Paul Jones 5 Greg Valentine vs. Ric Flair Date Friday, 1980/12/26 Venue County Hall in Charleston, South Carolina (United States of America) 1 Bill White vs. Johnny Weaver 2 Betty Clark and Peggy Lee vs. Glamour Girls (Judy Martin and Leilani Kai) 3 The Iron Sheik vs. Ivan Koloff - WTF?!!! Face turn? heel vs. heel? Notable opponents: Ole Anderson, Lars Anderson, Mr. Wrestling #2, Dusty Rhodes, Paul Jones, Johnny Weaver, ------------ In 1980, with Smirnoff as his partner, the tag titles are definitely de-emphasised a bit in GCW compared to 1979 when it looks like the money feud of the year. In CWF, as ever, he's booked strong vs. Dusty (at one point beating him in a cage match) and tagging with Nikolai Volkoff to feud with his perennial rivals the Brisco Brothers over the Florida tag titles. Ivan has consistently been treated like a major deal in Florida. In MACW he's still mostly being built up going over SD Jones and the like, but has semi-mains vs. Jones and Weaver. In December there are a series of matches with the Iron Sheik which have me scratching my head. All in all, this is a 4th straight pretty strong year for Ivan, not quite up there with 77 or 79, but still strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 This is where I'll stop. He's Crockett for life after this point and I think we all know that run. Quick-glance summary: 1968 - a top heel in Canada 1969-71 - feud with Bruno as top heel in WWWF. 1972-73 - slides down card in AWA where he is used as an upper midcarder, limited title shots vs. Verne, semi-main feud with Patera 1974 - no. 2 heel in MACW behind Johnny Valentine, but main events all year, successful tag-team with Super Destroyer, TV title feud with Paul Jones 1975 - main event run in IWA feuding with Thnderbolt Patterson and Mil Mascaras over the title before going back to New York to face Bruno again late in the year 1976 - semi-main feud with Ivan Putski plus title shots vs. Bruno in WWF, New Japan tour 1977 - one of the strongest years in his career: tag title runs in Florida with Pat Patterson and Masa Saito, WWA champ, main events in St. Louis, Chicago spot shows for AWA. Probably his second best year behind 1971. 1978 - feud with Jack Brisco in CWF in both singles and tags, tag title run in Georgia with Ole + feud with Stan Hansen and Dick Slater, run in NY late in the year to take on Backlund 1979 - money main event feud in Georgia tagging with Ole vs. Hansen / Dusty / Tommy Rich / Wahoo while also working WWF shows vs. Backlund, then feud vs. Ole late in the year plus Mid-South dates. Probably his third strongest year. 1980 - semi-main tag title run with Alexis Smirnoff in GCW, main event feud vs. Dusty in CWF and main event tag title feud teaming with Volkoff vs. The Brisco Brothers. Some thoughts: - Aside from his AWA run, Ivan was consistently treated like a big deal in every territory. His strongest runs outside of New York seem to be in GCW and CWF (where he is always booked strong), then MACW. - He was something of a tag specialist from 1977 and had a series of regular partners: Pat Patterson, Ole Anderson, Alexis Smirnoff, and Nikolai Volkoff. With the exception of the Smirnoff team, these teams were very often booked in the main event. In Florida it is not uncommon to see the tag title match put on over the Florida Heavyweight title match. In 1978, the tag matches in GCW are semi-main, but in 1979 they seem to be elevated to main event for most of the year. - With the exception of his AWA run, he didn't have mid-card runs and is never in "no man's land" during this period. We can put to bed the idea that Ivan came in to work with Bruno or Backlund and was just hanging around with nothing to do the rest of the time. He is arguably on top everywhere he works from 1974 to 1980 and there is not much "down time". There are periods, typically when he first debuts for a promotions where he'll spend a month or two getting built up and going over jobbers and JTTS, this is normal. For the most part though, he's in big matches. - He worked a hell of a lot of gimmick matches, especially in Georgia -- this is some indication that he was working in featured feuds. Although some of the GCW booking looked a bit hot-shot-y to me. - He was booked in Japan. IWE and New Japan tours. - He was in CONSTANT demand -- several times he's working for 3-4 different promotions at once. Vince Sr. wanted him, St. Louis wanted him -- and it doesn't dry up, they keep bringing him back again and again. ------------ That's it from me on Ivan. I've done as much work on it as I can. It's up to others to draw their own conclusions now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Don't throw shade on the 1980 tag titles run with Smirnoff as it had one of the best angles in GCW's history involving Tony Atlas & Kevin Sullivan. This is fucking awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I've got quite a bit of results from PNW/LeBell/Shire from the end of 1976 and he's nowhere to be found. Understood. Just saying it's unlikely that in those four months he *only* worked New Japan, and likely worked some place we don't have his results for. Just too many open dates in those four months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 True it is odd though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Tanaka benefited on that early run with Bruno as there weren't a whole lot of challengers then. They also still ran Bruno in tag matches (with Tanaka often in them, as was Gorilla). Graham doesn't have all the data, but I seem to recall from the MSG book that there was a period of shitty business in there, that then popped back up around the time the new Garden opened. The old saw that Bruno sold MSG out for 7 straight years was bullshit, and the second run was the one that seemed to have the more consistent business. Obviously Pedro and Backlund also draw conistently in MSG in the 70s, and the Superstar reign did as well though there's some irony looking at that as Superstar got a fair amount of help that he (and others) tends to shift over onto Bob getting help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khawk20 Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I few years ago, I threw together a whole bunch of AWA records from the Clawmaster Here are the challengers to the AWA Champion from that source. (Note, I filtered explictly on singles matches involving "AWA Champion"; if the championship was not explicitly noted, I would have missed the match.) I can't figure out how to make the thing big enough to read. Any advice? Noting your caveat on sorting, I note it doesn't seem to have a title challenge for Mad Dog to Bockwinkel in 1983. I'd need to see the list bigger to be sure I'm reading it right, though. EDIT: Looking/squinting at it again, I think I was wrong and it says 11 title matches in 1983, which would be more accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puropotsy Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I want to say that I didn't check out this thread until tonight (at Dylan's urging) and am really impressed with how great the conversation is while still being respectful. I put in my ballot fairly quickly and picked the following in the Wrestler categories: 1) Enrique Torres- A great example of what a fresh look at someone's career can do. Many, including me, knew next to nothing about the man at one point. I have seen such strong cases made for him, especially the write-up done by Steve Yohe, that it is hard not to vote for him. 2) Ivan Koloff- Actually my top pick. I read his book recently and was quite impressed with his perspectives on the business. The man was a success everywhere. He might not be in without the title win over Bruno, but honestly the credibility from that added to his success. He has longevity and success and from everything I've seen he had the ability. He had big runs everywhere, especially WWWF, the Carolinas and Montreal. I would ask people here: Is he at or near the top of Bruno's biggest opponents? 3) Pedro Morales: The knock is always that "he was only a draw in MSG", which I think needs to be reframed as "he was a draw in MSG". He may not compare to Bruno, but really who does? 4) Rock N Roll Express: Great draws, great influence and all-time great ability to do tag team formula like almost no one else. You could argue them over the Midnight Express in terms of it always being Ricky and Robert and their having success in SMW through the 90's and then as nostalgia draws in this century. I definitely favor the idea of them in as a team rather than Morton in on his own as I've seen suggested before. Although Gibson was not the stronger of the two, I don't the team would be the same with Bugsy McGraw in his spot. 5) Dick Murdoch- There were a couple of people (Edge and Sting) I took off my ballot this year. Murdoch might have been one of them but I had the opportunity to read the obit that was posted at f4w and he is such a strong case I couldn't vote for him. He strikes high in longevity, success, ability and influence. While not the top guy in each of those categories he has jus enough of each to be a strong candidate. 6) Ken Patera- I would vote for him on my own AND with all the convincing Dylan has done. He has runs in WWWF, St. Louis and AWA that all stand on their own as HOF credentials. A great worker who is one of the most underrated heels there has been in my mind. The only thing that could make him stronger for me is if he had more success in Japan, but everything else is so solid. 7) Kensuke Sasaki- He is probably compared too much to contemporaries like Misawa, Kobashi and Kawada who are all-time greats. Sasaki was somewhat of a late bloomer but did end up being great in my mind and also had success on Tokyo Dome shows. He was also really solid as an undercard guy in NJPW, especially in tag work. The incident with the student death is a blemish on him as a person but take a look around. His success in 2004-2008 has to be considered as well, especially how great he was in 2005. And he is now contributing as a trainer. 8) Hiroshi Tanahashi- He is not as strong a candidate as Cena was last year but may be the next strongest out of modern wrestlers. He has been successful and in my mind is quite good. And although some might not agree with that, there are obviously quite a few who do, including Japanese fans. I think it is safe to say that other than Kobashi he is the biggest star in Japan since 2000 and that is a long period of time for which to have that status. I didn't vote for him last year but it was close and this year put him over for me. NJPW was so beyond death when he was put on top and he built it up to one of the two most successful wrestling companies in the world, which is almost more impressive than starting from scratch as they overcame the Inoki baggage. 9) Mike and Ben Sharpe- These guys were a big part of establishing puroresu and were the protoytpes for monster gaijin. They had huge success in Japan and in his Torres bio Yohe said that the Sharpes are considered the top team of the 50s which is pretty high praise. They were big successes in a number of territories. Here is a link to the write-up I did on them last year: Ben and MIke Sharpe 10) Carlos Colon- Huge draw who basically carved a territory out of nothing and it is one that lasts to this day. No, it is not a big country like Mexico or Japan, but it certainly has its own identity and is more than just a wrestling city. His longevity is good and although he wasn't at the top of my ballot I do think he belongs in. Not a great worker but his success and influence overpower that for me. My non-wrestler picks were: Jim Crockett Jr. Jimmy Hart Jerry Jarrett Takashi Matsunaga Don Owen I will write more about them later but man is it late here. 5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Earlier Dylan said we had 10-15 voters posting here. I got Jose, Kris Z, Harrington, Musgrave, jdw and who else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 A few things responding to my podcasting brother. 1. There is actually no one on that ballot that I consider a bad pick though there are a few I would not vote for. 2. I always forget about The Sharpes, but I do think Dave's (Musgrave that is) write up does a good job illustrating their strengths. I could go either way on them but I hate that they are in the Japan region. It just irks me to death. 3. Sasaki is probably the guy I care least about getting in one way or the other. I don't think he is a bad pick, but I don't think he's a particularly strong pick either. He's a case of a guy where I think you can sort of spin the stats to make him look much better than he is, but even if you don't spin the stats he was still a star of note and I tend to think his freelance period provided some interesting moments and money drawing opportunities. I'm sure I will talk about him more when I do my inevitable full ballot run down everyone will scroll past 4. Tanahashi...I just don't see it yet. I'm not averse to him as a candidate at all, and I think if you are going to put a guy in based on the current era of Japan he is the obvious pick, but I don't think he's done near enough. If I thought he was an all time great worker I might feel differently but even then I'm not sure. He deserves credit for helping get NJPW back on track, but I would like to see at least one more full year, possibly two of what has been going for the last couple before I could really consider him a real good candidate. I think Meltzer's coverage and appreciation of NJPW is likely to get him in this year, but I wish people would wait. Tanahashi is also the perfect example of why I can never vote for a guy just on work alone. 5. I go back and fourth on Pedro. More on that later. 6. I think Dave is wrong about one thing - Carlos Colon was a great worker. At worst he was very good, but honestly I would have no qualms calling him great. His reputation is something that doesn't fit the reality of the matches he was producing. I get that working guys like Hansen and Flair is going to get you a certain number of quality matches, but the Hansen feud is one of the best feuds in the history of wrestling (and drew tremendously too), he has maybe the best Brody's singles match I've ever seen, he probably has the best series of matches Abby ever had (this won't be for everyone, but their absolute best brawl is outstanding), and he was able to carry extremely limited guys like Steve Strong to good series' of matches that drew money. If I were thinking about a top hundred workers list I would consider Colon for top fifty at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Earlier Dylan said we had 10-15 voters posting here. I got Jose, Kris Z, Harrington, Musgrave, jdw and who else? I think Bix said he got a ballot in the mail the other day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Earlier Dylan said we had 10-15 voters posting here. I got Jose, Kris Z, Harrington, Musgrave, jdw and who else? Jose, KrisZ, Harrington, evilclown, Musgrave, jdw, kjh, Bix, Lister, Ditch are all for sure. I am pretty positive Brian Elliot has a ballot. I feel like I'm forgetting at least one other person I'm sure does. There are a couple of other people here who I suspect may have a vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'm hesitant on Morales because I feel like he's a case of the WWWF machine working, in some ways more so than Backlund. Instead of being an unknown who got picked because he fit the archetype Vince Sr. wanted, he was an established star completely re-molded in the vision of what WWWF Champion was supposed to be. And lately, I've felt kind of negative on Backlund for how much he was just a guy along for the ride. He wasn't undeserving, but if everyone loved Bob Backlund, he was such a non-entity before and (more importantly) after his run (W)WWF Champion? For some reason the best comparison I can come up with among other HOFers is Paco Alonso, in that yeah, on paper he's deserving because it's his company, but it's not like he actually did anything. Yeah, Backlund was the big MSG headliner, but is there anything Backlund did to strongly suggest he had much to do with it? So yeah, Morales. The Pedro Morales who was a star in California, Hawaii, etc was a completely different wrestler, an Edouard Carpentier style high flyer who dumbed himself down when he was offered the best paying spot in wrestling because he was a charismatic Puerto Rican. He was doing everything different from what got him over in every other territory. He's not a HOF candidate without that ~3 year run. It's not like he was a blank slate, but I want to hear a solid argument that he wasn't coasting on being Puerto Rican. I'm not saying they could have thrown some uncharismatic Puerto Rican job guy in the role, but when you add in that he wasn't nearly as successful in the other cities in the territory as he was in NYC and that the live crowd demographics changed radically with his title win and loss...I can't really buy that Pedro Morales, specifically, was a draw at the level that makes him a HOFer. The more I think about it the more I take the stance that Bruno is the only one of the three face WWWF Champions who's a legitimate HOFer and not the product of a slick hype machine that was selling some of the worst pro wrestling in the country to major population bases that didn't know better (hell, Bruno has complained that he couldn't have quality matches as champ and that he wanted the babyface match with Pedro to do a major back and forth match full of highspots). And that's not me being some kind of WERKRATEZ~! snob as much as pointing out the disconnect between the WWWF and almost every other territory. Bruno was made champion because he was already a big draw. Bruno drew as a touring attraction in other territories to the point the NWA wanted him as their touring champion. The other two were thrown into a role Vince Sr. had in mind and succeeded because of the machine behind them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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