All-Time Greats who jobbed for Warrior

[cheapshot]

Same deal as why Mr Perfect is talked up. Memorable gimmick from a time every casual fan can remember. Jake also gets this rub. Only reason guys like Beefcake don't is because they had years of Keith and the like running them down. If you had a memorable gimmick AND were built by the internet as being a great worker = all time great.

Hennig was built up as a great worker before the internet had much of any wrestling talk. The WON and Torch and other newsletters loved him going back to his AWA Title reign, which was 1987. I don't think hardcore fans at the time were all that enamored with his Mr. Perfect gimmick, other than it got him a WWF push rather than getting buried in the prelims.

 

I'd also extend it: Dave rambles on about how people in the business (read guys who came along in the past 15 or so years) looked at Hennig as a great worker. Likely because he was something they great up watching, and relative to the WWF he was a worker that "worker based" wrestlers would have liked. Much as in 15 years we'll have a bunch of guys in the business who think Punk and Cena are all time greats... which they may or may not be.

 

The major reasons Beefcake doesn't get talked up is:

 

* he sucked as a worker

* he had no influence in the business (since being a sycophant had a long history in the business)

* he never drew of note

* he wasn't a real top of the card guy

 

There basically is no case for him.

 

I'm tempted to argue that Beefcake was more of a draw in the WWF than Hennig.

 

I'd like to read this argument Matt D.

[Matt D]

It's not hard. Beefcake was close to the top of the card in 1989 including being in the main event of Summerslam and the No Holds Barred PPV special, basically in the Randy Savage in the Mega Powers role. Hennig was almost immediately shunted to the top of the card at the beginning of 90 and bombed worse than any other major Hogan challenger. That would be the crux of my argument. A Meltzer theory at the time was that Beefcake was going to turn on Hogan and feud with him at the start of 90 but I think that was just a guess. Obviously they went with Hennig instead.

 

Anyway, Beefcake also main evented in 85-86 vs Hogan and in 86 on C-shows as part of the Dream Team or on A-Shows as the last match of the night (with Hogan wrestling as the last match before intermission). I'd have to look more to see if he main evented B-shows vs Honky in 87-88 but I think it's absolutely possible.

 

So Hennig has the doomed early 1990 run, a very short run with the IC belt in 90 before Kerry takes it at Summerslam. He spends the rest of the year chasing Kerry and getting swallowed up by the Team Warriors at Survivor Series, gets the belt back at the end of the year, has the Bossman feud which I don't think lit the world on fire, and loses to Bret at Summerslam. Part of me feels like his biggest impact on the WWF was his time as an announcer/manager and between Survivor Series 92 and Wrestlemania IX when he was basically the #2-#3 babyface in the company.

 

Now then, most of that is qualitative. I'm sure John can come back in and slam some numbers down on this stuff, but my gut says that Beefcake was a bigger draw and really, in total, a bigger deal when it comes to this era of the WWF. I'm not saying he SHOULD be talked up, necessarily, just that when it comes to this, maybe he should be talked up more than Curt.

[cheapshot]

It's not hard. Beefcake was close to the top of the card in 1989 including being in the main event of Summerslam and the No Holds Barred PPV special, basically in the Randy Savage in the Mega Powers role. Hennig was almost immediately shunted to the top of the card at the beginning of 90 and bombed worse than any other major Hogan challenger. That would be the crux of my argument. A Meltzer theory at the time was that Beefcake was going to turn on Hogan and feud with him at the start of 90 but I think that was just a guess. Obviously they went with Hennig instead.

 

Anyway, Beefcake also main evented in 85-86 vs Hogan and in 86 on C-shows as part of the Dream Team or on A-Shows as the last match of the night (with Hogan wrestling as the last match before intermission). I'd have to look more to see if he main evented B-shows vs Honky in 87-88 but I think it's absolutely possible.

 

So Hennig has the doomed early 1990 run, a very short run with the IC belt in 90 before Kerry takes it at Summerslam. He spends the rest of the year chasing Kerry and getting swallowed up by the Team Warriors at Survivor Series, gets the belt back at the end of the year, has the Bossman feud which I don't think lit the world on fire, and loses to Bret at Summerslam. Part of me feels like his biggest impact on the WWF was between Survivor Series 92 and Wrestlemania IX when he was basically the #2-#3 babyface in the company.

 

Now then, most of that is qualitative. I'm sure John can come back in and slam some numbers down on this stuff, but my gut says that Beefcake was a bigger draw and really, in total, a bigger deal when it comes to this era of the WWF.

That's a well constructed argument, however I'd like to see comparable numbers of how well they actually drew when main eventing house shows. I am glad you said a draw in WWF though; Leslie added NOTHING in WCW in my opinion.

[jdw]

The hard thing on Beefcake would be to show that he drew at all.

 

Being Hogan's partner when the matches built around Hogan vs Opponent doesn't mean a great deal. That always felt like a favor from Terry to Brutus to get him a nice payday.

 

Bulldogs vs Dream Team main evented a fair number of cards as the WWF were working 2-3 crews a night, but:

 

* those matches weren't drawing Hogan Numbers

 

There was the constant refrain in the WON that Hogan was piling up the numbers, and others were having problems drawing. Chris' number bear this out.

 

* was Beefcake the draw in that?

 

Bulldogs were the hot, pushed face team. It was a significant push, and the entire division was built around them. Valentine was fresh off being the IC champ when he got the tag belts. Beefcake... was kind of the goofy stiff teaming with Valentine. It didn't seem at the time that he was the one who was key in that group.

 

Then on main eventing with Hogan... it didn't seem like one of Hogan's more major feuds. I always go back to Hogan breaking box office records in a fair number of towns with Kamala. Hogan drew with a lot of folks. Beefcake never stood out as a feud or draw of any note. Never even felt like the Hogan-Bossman feud, which did very good business.

 

* * * * *

 

Making drawing arguments can be fairly easy. I've used this example before, but here goes again.

 

From 1988-91, All Japan ran 4 major Budokan cards each year on their 8 series they would run in a year. In 1992-94, they added one additional Budokan each year, having 7 of the 8 series climax in a major Budokan card. In 1998 they finally ran their own Tokyo Dome card, adding an 8th major card in the year.

 

That's 4 additional major cards (PPV equivs) being added to the calendar across that time.

 

Who was the one man chosen/trusted to main event every one of those expansion cards?

 

Toshiaki Kawada.

 

When the All Japan vs New Japan interpromotional feud finally took place, who was the man to headline all of the interpromtoional Tokyo Domes ran in the series?

 

Toshiaki Kawada.

 

Monster draw and card anchor?

 

 

I love Kawada. It would be easy to craft an argument that makes him look great in that regard. But there's more it than how I just presented it.

 

John

[Matt D]

The problem here is that this was a direct comparison to Hennig, who bombed as a Hogan opponent which is a worse sin than succeeding as a Hogan partner.

[jdw]

You made more than just that one point, and I touched 3 of 5 of them. If forgot the Beefcake-HTM one, though that probably balances out with Hennig main eventing some as IC champ, and one was something everyone agrees on since it's been documented over the years.

[Sidebottom]

Flair and Warrior had many matches in 1992, many of which can be found on fancam. Such an odd clash of styles / looks...

[Matt D]

You made more than just that one point, and I touched 3 of 5 of them. If forgot the Beefcake-HTM one, though that probably balances out with Hennig main eventing some as IC champ, and one was something everyone agrees on since it's been documented over the years.

Fair enough. I fully admit to pulling some of that stuff out of thin air since i didn't feel damned to look at numbers. What's your verdict when you compare the two of them ultimately on which of the two was a bigger draw during their WWF runs then?

[cheapshot]

I will switch on the Mookeighana signal.

[Moonsault Marvin]

I think it's interesting that Hennig doesn't seem to bomb against Hogan throughout the country. He sets Hogan's all time low in Madison Square Garden at 11500, even though that only stands for a couple months until Hogan bombs against Earthquake with 9500. Hennig also has weak numbers in Philadelphia and Minneapolis, but he is closer to middle of the road in most other places. Certainly Hennig is no great draw, but the stigma of the New York result really seems to stick to him.

[Matt D]

Presumably Quake also has the Summerslam buy rate on his side.

[Mad Dog]

Looking over some WCCW results looks like he had wins over Chris Adams, Matt Bourne, Abby, Jack Victory, Black Bart, Buzz Sawyer and Killer Brooks. Bruiser Brody beat him on both of their meetings.

[jdw]

You made more than just that one point, and I touched 3 of 5 of them. If forgot the Beefcake-HTM one, though that probably balances out with Hennig main eventing some as IC champ, and one was something everyone agrees on since it's been documented over the years.

Fair enough. I fully admit to pulling some of that stuff out of thin air since i didn't feel damned to look at numbers. What's your verdict when you compare the two of them ultimately on which of the two was a bigger draw during their WWF runs then?

 

Not sure. Neither was a draw in the WWF. Beyond that... eh.

[JerryvonKramer]

Matt - my original point was nothing to do with either drawing or WON. It was to do with why casual fans think of Mr Perfect as an all-time great.

 

That has precisely nothing to do with Meltzer or the Torch or with drawing. It has everything to do with being a memorable character and being talked up by Scott Keith, CRZ and other people like that. Casual fans didn't read Meltzer, they stumbled onto the internet and read 411.com, OnlineOnslaught and shit like that. (Note: casual fans, not harcores, casual fans who might have had a bit of nostalgic yearning for their childhood and stuck "wrestling" into AOL search 5.0 or whatever it was then.)

 

I don't believe that those people who rank Perfect in their top 10 lists and so on really give two shits about his AWA career. It's just a vague perception that this certain group of memorable guys they can remember (Perfect, Rude, DiBiase, to some extent Jake) are "greats". Some guys get that rub, others don't. I don't think Martel does, for example. I'm pretty sure Earthquake doesn't.

 

My point with Beefcake was to say that the only reason people like him are not thought of as "all-time greats" by these same people is because 411.com writers (and similar) ran them down. See also, any number of other guys.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think you realize how much those type of "Net" reviewers were influenced by Meltzer.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't think you realize how much those type of "Net" reviewers were influenced by Meltzer.

I do. I read them. But let's say Meltzer cared about Curt's AWA stuff, and residually that meant Keith and CRZ did too, do you think that the readers of the "Net" reviewers did? Or the ones who went on to write their own stuff? Several hundred (thousand?) top ten lists and other such articles I've read over the past fifteen years strongly suggest otherwise.

[jdw]

I don't think you realize how much those type of "Net" reviewers were influenced by Meltzer.

Yeah... I think I mentioned that in one of these threads. Dave and the sheets in general are a bit of the spring from which critical thinking on pro wrestling bubbled up. People online are so far removed from it, so many generations down the line, that they don't feel the influence. But it's there, even among folks who get tossed into the revisionist and/or anti-Moves~! movements. They are thinking about what they're watching, and trying to express why they think it's good beyond the old:

 

"Well I liked it."

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

Jerry, am I reading you correctly? Are you really claiming that negative reviews from Internet writers is the only think keeping Ed Leslie from being a HOF candidate?

[jdw]

FWIW, casual fans didn't read 411.com, OnlineOnslaught and shit like that. Hardcore fans did. As hard as the folks around here? Perhaps not. But they're not casual fans.

[BrickHithouse]

No one is harder than the PWO crowd. We're the hardest of the hardcores

[jdw]

Probably a number of folks every bit as hardcore.

[JerryvonKramer]

Jerry, am I reading you correctly? Are you really claiming that negative reviews from Internet writers is the only think keeping Ed Leslie from being a HOF candidate?

lol, no I'm not saying that. Not at all. Ha ha.

[Matt D]

Probably a number of folks every bit as hardcore.

No one as obstinate as us though.

[jdw]

Oh... there are people far more obstinate. There's some thread on here that documents Loss and/or Dylan having a conversation with Bryan that tops whatever you'd see here.

 

John