If Rick Rude didn't get injured

[JerryvonKramer]

Depends on what your take on "desperation" is.

 

 

 

[jdw]

But even if he was healthy and just sitting out,

What Johnny is implying is what I was saying: leaving WCW healthy rather than leaving it taking the insurance money.

 

Sorry bit confused about this. You made it sound like he had an option and that he might have worked if he wanted to. Why would he have just sat out if there was no gain? I don't get that.

 

People thought Rude was full of shit with working the Insurance Angle. There were a number of other wrestlers in that era who were thought to have overplayed their injuries to take the Free Money, or who stayed out longer than they had to. But Rude was pretty much the #1 on the list of people not buying it.

 

As for why Rude took the money?

 

* he saw his run in WCW hitting the wall

* he had no desire to work with Hogan and job to him

* he didn't have a good option of returning to the WWF since his falling out with Vince was quite bad

* he didn't have a good Japan option

* he likely wasn't 100% at the time of walking out

 

He didn't fell right and could see the handwriting on the wall for where his WCW career was headed and had little options, so play up the injury, get a doctor to sign off on it, play it up to the insurance company's doctors (both of which are extremely easy because wrestlers *are* physically a mess even when working fulltime), and take the Free Money and run.

 

That's why he took it. Or at least was the strong spec at the time.

 

Once out, pretty much everyone took the money for the entire time it was available. I can't remember anyone coming back "early".

 

* * * * *

 

Going in the other direction, since Rick wasn't really as hurt as he made it up to be, "what would have happened"?

 

* He was going to be phased down in WCW

* He was going to be told to do the job for Hogan

* His next contract wasn't going to be as good as his current one (these were pre-Monday Night Wars)

* He didn't have a good WWF option

 

If he didn't have the Insurance, but was good enough with his money to sit out like he did in 1990-91, then he might have bailed from WCW when the time was right (likely when his contract was up) or gotten released (if his contract had release language that Eric liked to invoke on people). In which case he would have sat out until an offer came from the WWF or WCW.

 

My comment on that part is that he would have been well placed in a "Sitting Out Without Insurance" scenario to get a pretty damn good offer when the Monday Night Wars heated up. It's what got Bret a great deal. The wars got Davey Boy a really good deal. Obviously it got Lugar and Nash and Hall good deals, as did Pillman.

 

Rude in the summer of 1996 might have gotten a really good deal.

 

John

[Johnny Guitar]

Mabel and Bundy were fodder for the stars. Which was a company/wrestling staple since time immemorial. Al Snow/Avatar was out of date, but it was low card fodder. So it diodn't reallt matter.

 

Vince wasn't desperate in 1995. He was still beating WCW on buyrates and attendance. He was just completley clueless to anything that related to modern society and popular culture.

[JerryvonKramer]

How many JTTSs end up headlining Summerslam?

[jdw]

Depends on what your take on "desperation" is.

 

Had been in the WWF since 1993, was getting a push through all that, and there is no sign that he had a falling out with Vince in the 1993-95 period leading up to challenging Nash. Running a Fat Man Heel Challenger vs Babyface Champion was old school Vince, and he'd been doing it with Yoko (as champ in fact) and Bam Bam against Hart.

 

Did I miss him getting a main event push against Nash? Or even a massive push?

 

 

It was a throw away undercard match. The pushed matches were Taylor-Bigelow and Nash-Shawn, with the Bret-Bob blow off the next pushed under that... and then likely the two other title matches. This is a bit like Snuka bring brought back as an undercard guy in the late 80s.

 

There's no desperation in any of these.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ok, if you say so. The 95 roster looks pretty shitty to me. Diesel vs. Mabel might smack of old-school WWF booking, but that looks like one of the weakest main events on a big four show possibly ever.

 

I can buy the general narrative that Vince went "back to basics" in 94-6 while cutting costs and that at no time during that time was he "desperate". If we want to say that, fine.

[Johnny Guitar]

How many JTTSs end up headlining Summerslam?

There's a difference between jobbers and fodder.

 

Ted Dibiase wasn't a jobber. Neither were Orndorff, Andre or Savage. But they were fodder for Hogan. who was the star of the show

[JazeUSA]

is this Rude/Honky IWCCW match on the set chopper released or elsewhere?

 

I think Rude was tremendous & was money anywhere he worked

[jdw]

How many JTTSs end up headlining Summerslam?

Pretty clear that Vince's plan coming out of Wrestlemania was back-to-back Nash vs Monsters feuds:

 

1. Nash vs Sid

2. Nash vs Mable

 

May IYH

Mabel pinned Adam Bomb (only KOTR Qualifier on the card)

Diesel dq Sid

 

June KOTR

Mabel pinned Savio Vega (wins KOTR)

Diesel & Bigelow defeated Sid & Tatanka

 

July IYH

Men on a Mission defeated Razor Ramon & Savio Vega

Diesel pinned Sid (lumberjack blow off)

 

August Summer Slam

Diesel pinned King Mabel

 

After that, whatever plans he had, got morphed around because business had issues. Hence the quick slapping together of Bret-Nash for Survivors with Bret getting involved in the Davey Boy match on the prior IYH.

[jdw]

Ok, if you say so. The 95 roster looks pretty shitty to me. Diesel vs. Mabel might smack of old-school WWF booking, but that looks like one of the weakest main events on a big four show possibly ever.

The WWF sucked at the time. But Bret vs Shawn at the 1992 Survivors was up to that point the worst PPV WWF main event ever in terms of drawing power because neither of those guys were Hogan or Savage. In hindsight it looks like something awesome and ahead of its time, but at the time it was a sign of how weak the WWF had gotten in a post-Hogan era.

 

Diesel-Mabel looked like shit on paper. But then again, Diesel as a champ looked like shit on paper with Vince going back to his old Big Guy Champ mindset. It end up bombing. Diesel-Sid and Diesel-Mabel looked like crap. But again, it's Vince and at the time we understood it was just his mindset.

 

 

I can buy the general narrative that Vince went "back to basics" in 94-6 while cutting costs and that at no time during that time was he "desperate". If we want to say that, fine.

Vince went back to the basics time and again as he swung between his "tried and true" and attempting newer things:

 

* Savage champ... old school!

* Bret champ... try something new!

* Yokozuna --> Hogan in one night... old school!

* Lex Express... old school!

* Back to Bret... try that smaller guy!

* Nash... old school!

* Bret --> Shawn... try something new style!

* Sid --> Taker... go with the Big Guys!

* Bret --> Shawn... go back to those newer guys!

* Austin... try something... holy shit... I finally found the New Hogan!

 

We use to laugh at Vince swinging back and forth. The stuff prior to the Monday Night Wars wasn't truly desperation: he went a whole year with Nash. The panic was really the MNWars era where he was bouncing off walls, and stuff like completely changing his plans for Mania in 1997... that was wild.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

That's an interesting take. What do you think of the idea of Bret's 2nd run actually being a throwback to Backlund in the way it was booked? That's an idea I was taken with when I first read it on here.

[Johnny Guitar]

Ok, if you say so. The 95 roster looks pretty shitty to me. Diesel vs. Mabel might smack of old-school WWF booking, but that looks like one of the weakest main events on a big four show possibly ever.

 

I can buy the general narrative that Vince went "back to basics" in 94-6 while cutting costs and that at no time during that time was he "desperate". If we want to say that, fine.

The WWf Roster in 1995 was decent. It's just that everyone was either booked very badly and/or given shitty gimmicks.

 

The WWF between 92 and 96 was probably the most experimental, or open to ideas that went out of WWF/northeast philospy. That,that company has ever been open to in regards to booking, as loss has pointed out.

 

There may have been a point when Vince felt desparate, but even when WCW took the lead in the war ratings wise. WWF was still drawing better better crowds to houseshows and PPV's and the buyrates were still comparible in most cases.

 

There was a point where it looked like Vince might go under, but WCW was making so many bush league mistakes even at their peak. That pretty much everyone assumed that Bischoff would drop the ball sooner or later.

[jdw]

That's an interesting take. What do you think of the idea of Bret's 2nd run actually being a throwback to Backlund in the way it was booked? That's an idea I was taken with when I first read it on here.

Bret's second run was just killing time being the bridge until Vince came up with The Next Big Thing, which turned out to be Nash. It was also a response to Lex *not* being the Next Big Thing as Vince hoped.

 

Backlund run *was* The Next Big Thing. It was Superstar that was killing time to bridge to Bob.

 

Bret was pretty much Bret in WWF history. The analogy for him would be Flair after Sting won the title: they would go back to Ric because other things didn't work out on top, but then look for who they could put the belt on to lead them to the promised land. We all found it kind of funny that after his first run that Bret became the WWF's Flair: not who they wented to be the Ace, but their Next Big Aces always bombed in some way, so they went back to Bret to buy them time. Given how much Bret didn't like Flair, we found it especially funny.

 

John

[jdw]

Ok, if you say so. The 95 roster looks pretty shitty to me. Diesel vs. Mabel might smack of old-school WWF booking, but that looks like one of the weakest main events on a big four show possibly ever.

 

I can buy the general narrative that Vince went "back to basics" in 94-6 while cutting costs and that at no time during that time was he "desperate". If we want to say that, fine.

The WWf Roster in 1995 was decent. It's just that everyone was either booked very badly and/or given shitty gimmicks.

They were also Face Heavy after Mania and Shawn turning:

 

Nash

Shawn

Bret

Razor

Taker

 

The heel side sucked post-Mania... and really wasn't that strong before. Yoko, but he'd run the clock with his long title reign. Shawn was heel through Mania, then flipped. And after that... weak. It's why Sid and Mabel were pushed as Monsters: old school safe thing that worked for Hogan while trying to figure out who the Savage was.

 

They ran Bret at Rumble, and didn't really want to turn him and have another program. They wanted to bring an end to the Shawn-Nash. That kind of left Taker or Razor if you wanted to give Nash a real program to try to stretch from Summer Slam (8/95) through Survivors (11/95). That's a big problem: those were two of Vince's favorite "Cool Heel Turned Face" characters, and he tended to be pretty loathed to turn them back. Savage he did. It took forever to turn Jake back, and blew him as being a useful heel challenger against either Hogan, Warrior or Savage. Shawn took a long while to go heel again. The Hart Foundation had issues going heel after being face, and the fans actually liked them over the Rockers.

 

Anyway, Razor never went heel again. Taker took forever to go heel again. But those might have been the programs for Nash... except that maybe Vince felt the fans would like them more than Nash.

 

John

[ButchReedMark]

To sum the original issue up in a sentence, Rick Rude would have been lost in the shuffle. He was done by then.

 

He was never a real main eventer anyway, it always felt forced with Rude.

[WingedEagle]

The WWF sucked at the time. But Bret vs Shawn at the 1992 Survivors was up to that point the worst PPV WWF main event ever in terms of drawing power because neither of those guys were Hogan or Savage. In hindsight it looks like something awesome and ahead of its time, but at the time it was a sign of how weak the WWF had gotten in a post-Hogan era.

Wasn't the tag with Savage/Warrior (and then Perfect) vs. Flair/Ramon pushed ahead of the title match on that show, or does it just feel like a bigger match in hindsight?

[ButchReedMark]

Survivor Series 92 felt super transitional at the time. After Warrior pulled out it was "Here's Mr Perfect", and Bret vs Shawn has hardly sold at all. It felt like an Intercontinental match to be honest, and it still seems that way watching it now. Sprig of parsley and a jacket potato next to the steak.

[Dooley]

The WWF sucked at the time. But Bret vs Shawn at the 1992 Survivors was up to that point the worst PPV WWF main event ever in terms of drawing power because neither of those guys were Hogan or Savage. In hindsight it looks like something awesome and ahead of its time, but at the time it was a sign of how weak the WWF had gotten in a post-Hogan era.

Wasn't the tag with Savage/Warrior (and then Perfect) vs. Flair/Ramon pushed ahead of the title match on that show, or does it just feel like a bigger match in hindsight?

 

It was. Bret vs Shawn was a title match but was barely given a second thought.

 

He didn't bring back Warrior until 1996 until he was getting really desperate in the face of WCW doing well. Similar falling out, except that Vince saw Warrior as a bigger star than Rude and "his" star. I don't see a lot of panic in Vince in 1995 over *talent* even as the business is bad. He stuck with Nash a whole year. He didn't replace Nash by pulling something out of his ass: Old Reliable Bret with the plan to go to Shawn who already was a top guy by that point.

 

Are there any moves with talent in 1995 that look desperation?

Bringing in Bill Watts to book shows Vince was looking outside his wheelhouse.

 

But I don't think it would even have to be a "desperation" move. You said yourself they were face-heavy and Rude would have fit in great as a main event heel foil for either Nash, Bret, or Shawn. With business down and few other options, that may have been enough for Vince to bury the hatchet.

 

The Warrior comparison is apples and oranges. Rude's price tag would have been much smaller and he wouldn't have demanded to be King of Everything, have his own comic book and whatever the fuck the "Destructicity" segments were etc.

[cm funk]

I don't see the signs of desperation til 96. 95 was a shit year for both companies, but WWF was doing much better on houses and PPV. I think once Nitro started up and WCW gradually made gains Vince started to feel the squeeze. Bringing back Warrior again and signing Marc Mero to the first guaranteed contract after losing Hall and Nash were the big signs. Then he throws a 10 year guaranteed contract at Mark Henry, and starts signing up his own guys (Shawn, Bret) to big money deals. This was all stuff he did in direct response to what Bischoff was doing. In 95 he wasn't reacting to WCW, he was just going with his tried and true (and totally out of date) formula.

[flyonthewall2983]

I like what Rude did from the time he came back to WWF to his death. He was actually doing color commentary in WCW, and was more of a face too I seem to remember. He was good on the mic in that respect from what I remember.

[notoriusvig]

I always liked Rude as a top heel and it's a shame he didn't get to do it long enough. He could've tried riding out the Hogan wave. Sure, he would've had to job to Hogan but he probably would have been working mains for a while and still making decent money. Of course, sitting around and collecting money is better than busting your ass and collecting it. He would've fit into ECW as a wrestler but it didn't pay well. 94-95 WWF probably wouldn't have been good but maybe 96 and for sure, 97. I always saw him in the 90's as a pissed off, mean spirited jerk with an edge who could kick someone's ass. He never seemed like a cartoon character once he got to WCW.