If Not Flair Then Who?

[JerryvonKramer]

I've been thinking of doing this sequel to the much loved Race 83 and Backlund 78 threads for a while. Although I think there is a clear frontrunner here, I do think that unlike the other two cases, there were possibly many more options on the table. So let's say something happens to Flair and he disappears off the face of the earth in 1981, who do they go with as NWA champ?

 

Just in case you're not sure, I'm talking about Ric Flair's first title win on September 17, 1981 over Dusty Rhodes. As I understand it, the decision had already been taken to take the belt off Harley long term and Dusty was always meant to be a transitional champ to drop the belt to Flair. If that is in *any*way incorrect, bet your bottom dollar someone will be popping into this thread to point it out. Anyway, in this scenario, Flair simply disappears before this date. Or, if you'd prefer, there is no Ric Flair. Who else do they run with?

 

I'm just going to run through a few of the options as I see them:

 

Ted DiBiase - leave your "JVK's a Ted mark" jokes aside, in 1981 he was headlining shows against Race in St. Louis where he was thought of highly by Sam Muchnick and headlining shows in Georgia where he was thought of highly by Jim Barnett. In addition, he was seen by peers and fans alike as one of the best workers in the country and at 27-years old was at a good time in his career to take the toil of the road. The main question mark over Ted was that, unless I'm mistaken, at this point he'd never worked heel. This would have probably marked a turn back to the Funk-Brisco style NWA champ and away from the Harley style, unless Ted changed up how he worked. We know he could have worked more like Harley / Flair, which he did later in his career, but at this stage he'd mostly been a solid fiery babyface with great fundamentals who could also talk if need be. However, I think if you look at the politics and landscape of the time, though, he has to be considered our frontrunner. Not only is he a good fit for the role, he's someone that you might imagine the various heads of the promotions agreeing on since he was probably not seen as being obviously anyone's "guy".

 

Ken Patera - this the horse that one would assume Dylan would be backing here, but from looking at a lot of cards from this era recently and working through those Matysik shows, I think he's right in the mix. He has a few key things going for him: first, household name recognition; second, he's coming off a big run in New York where he showed he could draw and headline shoes; third, he was a great character; forth, he was a heel who could bump -- a like for like replacement for Harley. Patera could have done the job. There are only two potential downsides with him that I can see, one is his age: at 39 he doesn't look like the guy you want leading your world title into the 1980s longterm. The second problem -- and this is more contentious -- is the fact that he was more of a "strong man" in this period and if you look at the champions from Whipper Billy Watson to Race himself, they weren't typically those sorts of wrestlers. Bobo Brazil was probably the closest.

 

Tommy Rich - earlier in 1981, Barnett had pushed for Rich to get the title for a quick bump to the Georgia gate. There's nothing to suggest that Barnett wouldn't have pushed for Rich again in this scenario (he would have surely pushed for Rich over DiBiase, for example, in the first instance). There are some obvious disadvantages to Rich: he was very young and not proven as a draw outside of Georgia or Memphis; he was a babyface through and through at this point and that either means an awkward turn or face vs. face against Dusty; and, finally, he would have been seen by the other promoters as being overwhelmingly "Barnett's guy". Still, he's a possibility.

 

Ricky Steamboat - Flair was Crockett's guy. If there's no Flair, then Crockett needs another horse to back, and I think there's every reason to believe that at this point, that horse would have been Steamboat. As with Ted, Steamboat would have been winding the clock back to a Brisco-style champ, and, as with Rich, it would lead to an awkward booking situation in the match with Dusty, but I can't think of who else Crockett would have been pushing at this point.

 

Dory Funk Jr / Terry Funk / Jack Brisco - these former champions were all still around and all had situations where they'd have been burnt out from their world title runs. But, the possibility is there for them to be talked into coming back for a last go round with the title. Brisco seems like he was working more dates in 81-82 than he had been and was loved and respected by several offices around the country. Dory and Terry were still working a lot of dates everywhere and in Japan. We're starting to stretch things, but it's not impossible for something like this to happen.

 

Buddy Rose - this is more in "PWO wet dream" sort of territory, but at least one promoter might have mentioned him, and in many ways, he could have done an identical job to Harley. He was built like Harley (in 81), he could bump like Harley, he could go 60 minutes, he could talk, he could do everything you'd expect the NWA champion to do. The minus points? Politically, I can't imagine him to have been that strong, and I don't know how well he was known outside of the North West and West coast as a draw. Outside shot, but still, he's kinda on the table.

 

Rick Martel - speaking of PWO wet dreams ... Martel was less well established as a top draw in the US than some of these other candidates and as with Rich, Steamboat and to an extent Ted, we have that babyface situation. But Martel did have a rep within the business as a good worker, and had several world title shots against Harley. I suspect 1981 might be a little early for Martel realistically to have been in the NWA World Title picture, but it's not inconceivable that his name would have come up.

 

Dick Murdoch - now Murdoch was seen as a bit of a maverick, but he's another guy with all of the tools required and would have been more or less the closest thing to a like for like replacement to Race imaginable. One major thing Murdoch would have had going for him in this particular scenario is that the booking to the match with Dusty could have been spectacular. With the two of them having so much history, and both being great characters, it could have made a fantastic lead-in feud and blow off. Murdoch's main problem, I believe, is that he was seen as being a bit of a back-stage clown and that sort of thing didn't sit well with being champion.

 

Greg Valentine - in terms of premier heels in the business who could go, Valentine is surely a name that has to be mentioned. Like Harley, he worked a methodical style and just ask Gorilla Monsoon if he could go 60 minutes. The main drawback with Greg, however, is that unlike Harley or Flair, he wasn't a big personality. And I don't know if his record as a draw was anything more than "solid". Still, he'd proven himself in New York and Greensboro, and had wrestling in his blood. It's not too hard to make a compelling case for Greg.

 

Bruiser Brody - as much as everyone hates him, he was a proven draw everywhere he went, and was perceived as being a guy who could go when he wanted. On the downside, he could go into business for himself and was known as being ruthless and uncooperative when he wanted to be. He's on the very very long-shot list, but in terms of "biggest stars in wrestling in 1981", his name is in that mix.

 

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I'll stop there. There are other names I could throw out, but I want to leave space for others to make suggestions.

[WingedEagle]

What about Dusty as more than a transitional champ? He could certainly work with many of the names above in a host of territories. You'd think Japan would have interest in renting the dream for parts of a tour every now and then, and imagine him coming to town to work with the Freebirds in Texas or Mid South? Teaming with the Von Erichs, paired with Dibiase or Flair in their hotbeds? Definitely curious how a couple years of Dusty on top plays out on various stages.

[anarchistxx]

Did Rhodes and Steamboat ever work a match? They were around so often in the same places that it seems certain they did, but I've not seen any evidence of it.

[JerryvonKramer]

What about Dusty as more than a transitional champ? He could certainly work with many of the names above in a host of territories. You'd think Japan would have interest in renting the dream for parts of a tour every now and then, and imagine him coming to town to work with the Freebirds in Texas or Mid South? Teaming with the Von Erichs, paired with Dibiase or Flair in their hotbeds? Definitely curious how a couple years of Dusty on top plays out on various stages.

The argument with Dusty is always that he was more compelling in the chase than as champ.

 

My impression of Dory Jr/Brisco/Terry is that they were a bit tweener-ish, so they could go into any town and effectively work vs. a face or a heel. If they were against a heel, they'd be the de facto face, if they were against a face, they could work the subtle heel. Race could work vs. a face or a heel too, but I think more often than not he was against the local hero unless he was in his backyard (Central States and sometimes St. Louis) where he could go vs., for example, a heel Dick Murdoch as a de facto face. With Dusty, you effectively take away this idea, unless you can see Dusty working "subtle heel" in a lot of towns. Can you?

 

The other knock on Dusty long-term is that he might have been seen by some as taking credibility away from the title.

[Loss]

Here's an out of the box suggestion. What about Stan Hansen?

[jdw]

Tommy Rich

Ricky Steamboat

Rick Martel

 

Faces. They never would get the pick as a long term (i.e. 1+ year) NWA champ in 1981.

 

Dory Funk Jr

Terry Funk

Jack Brisco

 

Brisco wouldn't want it. Dory was way past it. Hard to see them going backwards to Terry after 4+ years.

 

Buddy Rose

 

Would never happen.

 

 

Dick Murdoch

 

Didn't seem to be where the NWA was at in 1981. That's 12+ years removed from Kiniski.

 

Bruiser Brody

 

Would never happen.

 

Greg Valentine

 

Viable option. Don't think he would be #1 behind Flair, and might not be #2... but certainly could work NWA Heel Champ. Not sure if he would want the touring.

 

 

Ken Patera

 

Viable option. Not sure if he was fully thought of at that level by the entire NWA, or enough to get a vote... or how he fit into how enough promoters wanted to see the visiting champ. But certainly viable.

 

 

Ted DiBiase

 

Likely the #1 option after Flair, at least as we've been told historically. I would be interested in how much he worked heel prior to Oct 1981.

 

 

John

[Matt D]

Had Piper done enough yet?

[JerryvonKramer]

jdw - you're making a big assumption there that the NWA were wedded to the idea of a heel champ like Harley, but were either of The Funks or Brisco heel champs in this mould? Nothing I've seen of cards or footage suggests this to me. Who was the face in the Harley vs. Terry Funk matches?

 

Couldn't Rich, Steamboat or Martel have worked the title like Brisco worked it? Was "the norm" Harley or was "the norm" actually more like Thesz?

 

Also, I don't believe Ted worked heel at all at this point -- only possible place that isn't quite on my radar is Mid-South prior to 1979. I want to say the famous turn in Mid-South in 82 was the first time he'd worked heel anywhere.

 

Dick Murdoch

 

Didn't seem to be where the NWA was at in 1981. That's 12+ years removed from Kiniski.

What makes him so different from Harley? Seems like the closest guy around to Harley if they wanted like for like (which you seem to be assuming).

[BrickHithouse]

I don't know that it would work, and it wouldn't be very NWA to do, but what about Bobby Heenan as NWA champ, touring the country and taking ass kickings from all the top babyfaces. I'd buy a ticket

[King Solomon]

Dibiase #1

 

Rich-No way

 

Martel- my darkhorse pick as I think he could easily go tweener/heel

[King Solomon]

As much as I like Brody theres no way they title him up. I can picture him guzzling the local heroes.

[WingedEagle]

What about Dusty as more than a transitional champ? He could certainly work with many of the names above in a host of territories. You'd think Japan would have interest in renting the dream for parts of a tour every now and then, and imagine him coming to town to work with the Freebirds in Texas or Mid South? Teaming with the Von Erichs, paired with Dibiase or Flair in their hotbeds? Definitely curious how a couple years of Dusty on top plays out on various stages.

With Dusty, you effectively take away this idea, unless you can see Dusty working "subtle heel" in a lot of towns. Can you?

 

 

I can't. But between Flair, Race, Dibiase, Patera, the Freebirds and others, I think you've got a pretty decent mix of heels to match him with. And that's before contemplating how any face/face matches might work with the likes of Steamboat & the Von Erichs.

[khawk20]

Maybe they come up with a monetary offer that Nick Bockwinkel couldn't refuse, no matter the evil of the travel schedule as he saw it compared to Harley's salary?

[jdw]

jdw - you're making a big assumption there that the NWA were wedded to the idea of a heel champ like Harley, but were either of The Funks or Brisco heel champs in this mould? Nothing I've seen of cards or footage suggests this to me. Who was the face in the Harley vs. Terry Funk matches?

Terry had worked as a heel for ages. He could work both.

 

The NWA Heel Champ was a concept going back all the way to Lou. You come into a territory facing the Local Hero Face and of course you're going to work heel. You might try to get away with Face vs Face for a while, but the Local Fans want to root for the Local Hero to beat The Champ. From a match layout standpoint, it just made sense to play off that.

 

Watch the Lou vs Verne. Lou is the heel, quite clearly, and it's right out there in the open. It's perhaps closer to the "Rough" that Kawada & Taue might use against Misawa & Kobashi rather than the bumping stooging cheating heel that Flair is... except that Lou bumped, stooged and cheated (i.e. broke the rules).

 

With perhaps the exception of Hutton, every long term NWA Champ up to Flair worked heel when it was needed. Brisco was a terrific heel when it was needed: watch the match with Jumbo for the UN Title. He's wonderful because you expect a clean Sporting Match, and as the Local Hero gets the better of Jack more and more, he starts to lose it. Terrific shit without him having to go all Monster Heel.

 

So guys like Steamer and Martel and Rich, cross them off. Tommy wasn't going heel in 1981. Steamer never went heel in his prime. I don't think Martel really went heel until the WWF, though he was able to get across "frustrated" in his 7/84 match with Jumbo... but the frustration only led to it feeling more like the intensity got jacked up rather than Martel resorting to being a cheating heeling dog.

 

 

Couldn't Rich, Steamboat or Martel have worked the title like Brisco worked it?

There's no indication that they could have done that in 1981.

 

 

Was "the norm" Harley or was "the norm" actually more like Thesz?

Again, watch Lou vs Verne. There's your norm getting invented. It's also what was needed out of a champ.

 

 

 

Dick Murdoch

 

Didn't seem to be where the NWA was at in 1981. That's 12+ years removed from Kiniski.

What makes him so different from Harley? Seems like the closest guy around to Harley if they wanted like for like (which you seem to be assuming).

Dick feels more like a brawler. Harley had Muvs~!

 

John

[jdw]

Maybe they come up with a monetary offer that Nick Bockwinkel couldn't refuse, no matter the evil of the travel schedule as he saw it compared to Harley's salary?

[JerryvonKramer]

Ok, I don't dispute Thesz worked heel in some matches, the point was that he -- and later Dory and Jack -- in general were more tweener-ish. Set aside the question of Rich, Steamboat and Martel for a moment, you agree at least that there is a distinction to be made between Race and these earlier champions? Yes? I at least want to establish that to know that we're at least on the same page here.

 

As I see it, Thesz (and O'Connor, and then Dory and then Brisco) all worked a style that could be described as "legit best wrestler" -- they might get pushed close by these local heros but ultimately ring savvy and cunning would see them through. So a backslide or a small package might win them the the third fall in that 45-minute match against whomever. If that requires a sneaky leg on the ropes here and there, so be it.

 

Race (and then Flair) worked a distinctly different style: they were heels through and through. They went in and bumped around and then did something cheap to sneak the win. Your own term, jdw, is "playing the bitch".

 

Would you agree on this essential difference?

 

Let's assume that you're right on Steamboat and Martel (Rich is only listed because Barnett might have pushed for him again), if Ted was going to be champ, it seems to me that he'd have been a champ closer to the first model. There's not a lot about pre-82 Ted I've seen that suggests to me they would have been asking him to play a bitch heel champ in the Harley / Flair mould. If anything, as a worker, he was closer to Backlund (without the headlocks).

[King Solomon]

Here's an out of the box suggestion. What about Stan Hansen?

 

I think Martel was a good heel in his Model role and imagine what kind of heel he could have been if allowed to be more gritty than the cartoonish "Model". I haven't seen the Lawler-martel Memphis match but I heard he was good in that role. In 85 he was my fave of the three world champs. I think he had that fire to play tweener/heel when going to a World Class to face the von erich boys or Florida against Dust. He could've played a more gritty version of his "Model" persona.

[khawk20]

For me, the problem with that Martel argument is that I never, ever could envision him in ANY sort of a heel role before he turned in the WWF so many years later.

 

How many others that mattered wouldn't have been able to see it either? He seemed soooooooooo entrenched as a babyface throughout the 80's. To me, at least.

 

It did work when he eventually did turn and he was good at it. In 1981 I don't know it would have worked the same way for him.

[khawk20]

Anyone think Cowboy Bob Orton would have worked?

 

What about an "in better shape" Adrian Adonis?

[JerryvonKramer]

Orton is not a bad shout.

[King Solomon]

That's where hopefully someone could spot that potential. As a fan in 1985 which is when I started watching AWA after two years of WWF fandom I couldn't picture it either. Monday morning QBing this thing I could see it tho. Looking back in 81 on Steamboat and Martel I could see more traces of Canadian Rick having an edge to him. Did Martel play heel in his tag matches against the High Flyers?

[King Solomon]

I say Orton and Adonis are both close but no cigar guys. For me they lacked that presence a World Champ should have.

[khawk20]

Did Martel play heel in his tag matches against the High Flyers?

Strictly faces, all four of them. I spent too much time watching him as a face to have been able to make that leap. I was actually pissed when he did turn heel...seemed wrong somehow.

[khawk20]

I say Orton and Adonis are both close but no cigar guys. For me they lacked that presence a World Champ should have.

Would giving Orton a mouthpiece have helped?

 

Adonis could talk and I think could have souped up his ring presence somehow to "fit the mold", if he needed to.

[King Solomon]

What about a boot wearing, bearded Jimmy Snuka? Of course he would need a mouthpiece which was unheard of for an NWA champ. I pick Buddy Rogers to play the role and Snuka could heel it up or face it up with ther best of them. He was an awesome piece of talent in 81.