Steve Yohe's Top 100 Project

[Dylan Waco]

So Steve Yohe organized a vote on the "Greatest 100 Wrestling Stars" over at Classics over the last couple of months. The voters were selected by invite/approval, and it was a simple list from 1-100 of the top wrestling stars in history in the eyes of each voter. Steve discussed his idea of the criteria over at Classics, but he left it open to interpretation of the individual voters. In the end 26 people voted, representing a fairly broad cross section of researchers, fans, and historians.

 

The list of voters were:

 

#1-Steve Yohe

#2-Jan H. (Man-E-Faces or H7-25) from Germany

#3-Etsuji Koizumi

#4-Joe Opiela

#5-Steve Johnson

#6-J Michael Kenyon

#7-Bert fron NJ

#8-Jagdip Dhillon (Jag from tOA)

#9-Bertrand Hebert

#10-Mark Hewitt

#11-Don Luce

#12-John Pelan

#13-Tim Hornbaker

#14-Clawmaster64

#15-Pat Laprade

#16-Keith Martinson

#17-Koji Miyamoto

#18-Jose Fernandez

#19-Dave Musgrave

#20-Dylan Hales

#21-Crimson Mask

#22-Kris Zellner

#23-Ed Lock

#24-Hisaharu Tanabe

#25-Mat Farmer

#26-Dave Meltzer

 

He came out with the final results today and given the discussion that was had here over Larry Matysik's Top 50 book, I figured the results were worth cross posting here. Below is the top 100. Next to the names are the number of "points" each wrestler got, the number of ballots they appeared on, an the number of first place votes where applicable. I will follow up with posts that include the "others receiving votes" list, my own 100, and personal thoughts on the final results

 

1- Lou Thesz 2425 26 6

2- Jim Londos 2384 26 12

3- Hulk Hogan 2318 25 2

4- Ed “Strangler” Lewis 2303 26 1

5- Frank Gotch 2300 26 3

6- Bruno Sammartino 2247 26

7-Ric Flair 2225 25 1

8-Andre The Giant 2220 26

9-Rikidozan 2208 26

10- Buddy Rogers 2102 25

11-El Santo 2091 23 1

12-Antonio Inoki 1987 24

13- Steve Austin 1975 23

14-Joe Stecher 1929 24

15-Shohei Baba 1801 22

16-Gorgeous George 1770 23

17-Verne Gagne 1769 24

18-The Rock 1765 23

19-George Hackenschmidt 1725 24

20-Harley Race 1637 23

21-Antonino Rocca 1573 24

22-Nick Bockwinkel 1562 25

23-Dory Funk Jr 1487 24

24-Mil Mascaras 1481 23

25-Dusty Rhodes 1459 22

26-Stanislaus Zbyszko 1443 24

27-Terry Funk 1421 23

28-Gene Kiniski 1349 22

29-The Destroyer 1333 25

30-Mitsuharu Misawa 1323 20

31-Wild Bill Longson 1308 21

32-Jack Brisco 1298 22

33-Edouard Carpentier 1285 23

34-Jumbo Tsuruta 1283 22

35-Killer Kowalski 1253 21

36-William Muldoon 1246 19

37-Freddie Blassie 1236 24

38-Randy Savage 1231 22

39-Stan Hansen 1217 21

40-The Sheik 1152 21

41-Farmer Burns 1118 18

42-Bret Hart 1101 22

43-Whipper Watson 1086 21

44-Yvon Robert 1080 20

45-John Cena 1064 21

46-Dick The Bruiser 1043 21

47-Pat O’Connor 1018 23

48-Gus Sonnenberg 1013 18

49-Shawn Michaels 982 18

50-The Undertaker 964 19

51-Kenta Kobashi 964 17

52-Johnny Valentine 960 24

53-Blue Demon 941 16

54-John Pesek 902 17

55-Ray Stevens 855 22

56-Earl Caddock 852 17

57-Bobo Brazil 844 19

58-Bruiser Brody 823 17

59-Tiger Mask I (Sayama) 814 17

60-Riki Choshu 807 16

61-Bob Backlund 787 19

62-Keiji Muto 781 19

63-Maurice Tillet 765 15

64-Genichiro Tenryu 757 16

65-The Great Gama 709 12

66-Akira Maeda 695 18

67-Bronko Nagurski 685 16

68-Evan “Strangler” Lewis 649 15

69-Toshiaki Kawada 647 15

70-Fritz Von Erich 636 15

71-Tom Jenkins 630 13

72-Perro Aguayo 629 15

73-Tatsumi Fujinami 607 18

74-Don Leo Jonathan 605 14

75-Roddy Piper 594 14

76-Big Van Vader 578 16

77-Jerry Lawler 572 14

78-Danny Hodge 559 20

79-Ed Don George 554 15

80-Dick Shikat 551 14

81-Abdullah The Butcher 520 17

82-Billy Robinson 517 13

83-Kurt Angle 516 13

84-Ray Steele 515 11

85-Triple H 505 15

86-El Hijo Del Santo 500 14

87-El Solitario 498 8

88-Frank Sexton 492 10

89-Shinya Hashimoto 488 14

90-Rick Steamboat 469 14

91-Canek 464 9

92-Mad Dog Vachon 456 14

93-Orville Brown 456 13

94-Wladek Zbyszko 452 14

95-Billy Graham 448 12

96-Hans Schmidt 435 12

97-The Crusher 433 10

98-Rey Misterio Jr 407 12

99-Ray Mendoza 401 6

100-Henri De Glane 392 14

[Dylan Waco]

Others receiving votes:

 

101-Gory Guerrero 374 9

102-Dara Singh 373 8

103-Pat Patterson 356 11

104-Karl Gotch 356 8

105- Bill Miller 355 9

106-Mildred Burke 349 11

107-Everett Marshall 328 10

108-Sandor Szabo 308 10

109-Joe Savoldi 308 5

110-Mick Foley 291 13

111-Justin Liger 277 10

112-Ad Santel 274 4

113-Dynamite Kid 270 8

114-Jim Browning 268 8

115-Toots Mondt 251 6

116-Danno O’Mahoney 249 8

117-Mick McManus 246 8

118-Primo Carnera 229 6

119-Eddie Guerrero 220 7

120-Nobuhiko Takada 219 10

121-Enrique Torres 209 9

122-Chris Benoit 203 7

123-Col. J. H. McLaughlin 202 7

124-Rene Guajardo 198 4

125-Eddie Graham 196 7

126-Steve Casey 181 8

127-Negro Casas 176 4

128-George Gordienko 173 3

129-George Bothner 172 3

130-Dick Hutton 171 3

Carlos “Tarzan” Lopez 171 3

132-Bobby Managoff 170 5

133-Brock Lesnar 167 7

134-Villano III 167 5

135-Black Shadow 166 3

136-Jackie Pallo 165 3

137-Bert Assirati 163 9

138-Cavernario Galindo 163 5

139-Man Mountain Dean 158 4

140-Wahoo McDaniel 157 11

141-Fred Beell 150 6

142-Manami Toyota 146 6

143-Atsushi Onita 146 4

144-Billy Joyce 143 2

145-Masahiro Chono 135 5

146-Lord Lansdowne 134 3

147-Pedro Morales 132 8

148-Wilbur Snyder 132 4

149-Joe Malcewicz 131 3

150-Danny Mc Shain 129 6

151-Duncan C. Ross 128 4

152-Big Daddy (Shirley Crabtree) 127 6

153-Bill Watts 126 5

154-Dos Caras 126 4

155-Mr Moto 126 2

156-Ivan Poddubney 124 2

157-Ivan Koloff 123 5

158-Cien Caras 123 4

159-Joe Acton 122 4

160-Yusuf Ismail (Terrible Turk) 121 2

161-Dr Ben Roller 120 6

162-Kintaro Oki 119 3

163-Sting 118 7

164-Mark Lewin 118 5

165-Don Eagle 116 5

166-Ernst Roeber 116 3

167-Ernie Ladd 114 6

168-Ted Dibiase 113 7

169-Clarence Eklund 108 4

170-Kinji Shibuya 107 2

171-Road Warrior Hawk 101 2

Roadwarror Animal 101 2

173-Chigusa Nagayo 100 5

174-Jack Reynolds 99 3

Chief Little Wolf 99 3

176-Hiro Matsuda 99 2

177-Mr Wrestling II (Tim Woods)92 1

178-Jackie Fargo 89 3

179-Don Curtis 89 1

180-Luther Lindsey 88 1

181-Dump Matsumoto 87 6

182-Tom Connors 85 2

183-Josh Barnett 85 1

184-CM Punk 84 5

185-Little Beaver 84 2

186-Kazushi Sakuraba 84 1

187-Sky Low Low 83 3

188-Hiroshi Tanahashi 82 4

189-Zebra Kid 80 2

190-Jack Sherry 79 1

191-Marin Plestina 78 1

192-Hans Steinke 76 2

193-Nat Pendleton 76 1

194-Pepper Gomez 75 4

195-Taro Miyake 75 3

196-Rolland Bock 74 1

197-Theobaud Bauer 73 1

198-Akira Hokuto 72 3

199-Jack Taylor 69 1

200-Ernie Dusek 66 2

201-Charles Olsen 65 2

Satanico 65 2

203-Earl McCready 64 4

204-Jack Carkeek 64 2

205-Rudy Dusek 63 1

206-El Rayo de Jalisco 62 2

207-Emil Dusek 62 1

Paul Jones 62 1

Matty Matsuda 62 1

210-Karloff Lagarde Sr 61 3

211-Joe Dusek 61 1

212-Karl Pojello 60 1

213-Konnan 59 1

214-Otto Wanz 58 3

215-Yukio Tani 58 1

216-Horst Hoffman 57 2

Jerry Graham 57 2

Henri Irslinger 57 2

219-Wild Red Berry 57 1

Big Show 57 1

221-El Charro Aguayo 56 1

222-Dr Wagner 55 2

223-Joe Turner 55 1

224-Dick Murdoch 54 2

225-Pirata Morgan 54 1

226-MS-1 53 1

227-Yukon Eric 52 2

228-Matsada Sorakichi 52 1

229-Curt Henning 49 2

230-Edwin Bibby 49 1

231-Bobby Bruns 48 1

232-Atlantis 47 2

233-Charlie “Midget” Fischer 47 1

234-Ben Sherman 46 2

Edge 46 2

236-Pet Brown 46 1

Anibal 46 1

238-Medico Asesino 45 3

239-Dr Wagner Jr 45 1

Aja Kong 45 1

241-George Zaharias 44 1

Ivan Gomes 44 1

243-Chris Jericho 43 3

244-Tiger Jeet Singh 43 1

El Angel Blanco 43 1

246-Chief Chewacki 42 1

William Demetral 42 1

L.A. Park 42 1

249-Leroy McGuirk 41 2

250-Judo Gene LeBell 41 1

Leo Nomelini 41 1

252-Sammy Steamboat 40 1

Randy Orton 39 2

254-Harvey Parker 39 1

255-Yussif Mahmout 38 1

256-Carlos Colon 37 3

257-Dan McLeod 37 2

258-Waino Ketonen 37 1

259-Murcielago Velazquez 35 1

260-Baron Michele Leone 34 2

Paul Orndorff 34 2

262-Mike Sharpe 34 1

Kiyoshi Tamura 34 1

Espanto I 34 1

265-Bearcat Wright 33 3

266-Paul Boesch 33 1

Ben Sharpe 33 1

Jimmy Snuka 33 1

Steve Williams 33 1

Espanto II 33 1

271-Huracan Ramirez 32 3

272-H. M. Dufur 32 1

273-Emile “King Kong” Czaja 31 2

274-Yussiff Hussane 31 1

Negro Navarro 31 1

276-Volk Han 30 1

Sputnick Monroe 30 1

El Signo 30 1

279-El Texano 29 1

Gus “Americus” Schoenlein 29 1

281-Ilio DiPaolo 28 2

Gus Kallio 28 2

283-Junkyard Dog 28 1

284-Seelie Samara 27 1

Dan Koloff 27 1

286-Killer Karl Kox 26 2

287-Reginald Siki 26 1

288-Ruffy Silverstein 25 1

289-Dean Detton 24 2

290-Greek George 24 1

291-Loffy Blomfield 23 3

292-Curtis Iaukea 23 2

293-Masakatsu Funaki 23 1

294-John McMahon 22 2

295-Dientes Hernandez 22 1

Jimmy Demetral 22 1

Fabulous Moolah 22 1

298-Jack O’Brien 21 1

Dave Levin 21 1

300-Rolando Vera 25 2

301-George Gracie 19 1

Rito Romero 19 1

303-Octavio Gaona 18 1

Ira Dern 18 1

305-Hugh Nichols 17 1

Terry Gordy 17 1

307-Alexander Aberg 16 1

Wayne Munn 16 1

309-Rusher Kimura 15 2

310-Chiyo Obata 15 1

Joe Pazandak 15 1

Shinsuke Nakamura 15 1

313-Carl Abs 14 1

Kazuyuki Fujita 14 1

Sammy Cohen 14 1

316-Jimmy Esson 13 1

317-Gypsy Joe (Gilberto Merendez) 12 1

Dick Daviscourt 12 1

Daniel Bryan 12 1

Jaguar Yokota 12 1

321-Blue Panther 11 1

Dick Cardinal 11 1

323-Rick Martel 10 2

324-Black Gordman 10 1

Euclydes “Tatu” Hatem 10 1

Kotetsu Yamamoto 10 1

325-Umanosuke Ueda (Mr Ito) 9 1

George Pencheff 9 1

Masahiko Kimura 9 1

Alfonso Dantes 9 1

329-Charlie “Kid” Cutler 8 1

Kerry Von Erich 8 1

Joe Leduc 8 1

Tony Charles 8 1

333-Johnny Rougeau 7 1

Fritz Hanson 7 1

Roy Dunn 7 1

Ricky Morton 7 1

337-Dino Bravo 6 1

Ken Shamrock 6 1

Benny Sherman 6 1

340-Abe Coleman 5 1

Bull Nakano 5 1

Billy Riley 5 1

343-Sputnik Monroe 4 1

Bill Eadie 4 1

Ray Gunkel 4 1

Raul Romero 4 1

347-Vincent Lopez 3 1

Karl Von Hess 3 1

Lizmark 3 1

350-Billy Wicks 2 1

351-George Kidd 1 1

August Sepp 1 1

George Tragos 1 1

[Dylan Waco]

My own 100 (some of which I would probably already change)

 

1. Jim Londos

2. Hulk Hogan

3. El Santo

4. Lou Thesz

5. Rikidozan

6. Steve Austin

7. Ed Lewis

8. Buddy Rogers

9. Frank Gotch

10. Andre The Giant

11. Ric Flair

12. Bruno Sammartino

13. Giant Baba

14. Blue Demon

15. Joe Stetcher

16. Antonio Inoki

17. The Rock

18. Perro Aguayo

19. Ray Mendoza

20. Riki Choshu

21. Farmer Burns

22. Verne Gagne

23. Terry Funk

24. William Muldoon

25. George Hackenschmidt

26. Gorgeous George

27. Harley Race

28. Jack Brisco

29. Gene Kiniski

30. Dory Funk Jr.

31. Pat O’Connor

32. Gori Guerrero

33. Mitsaharu Misawa

34. Mil Mascaras

35. The Sheik

36. El Solitario

37. The Black Shadow

38. Bill Longson

39. Nick Bockwinkel

40. Keiji Mutoh

41. Shinya Hashimoto

42. Antonio Rocca

43. Randy Savage

44. Freddie Blassie

45. Jumbo Tsuruta

46. Dick Beyer

47. Rene Guajardo

48. Ray Stevens

49. Tatsumi Fujinami

50. Stan Hansen

51. Negro Casas

52. Canek

53. Tom Jenkins

54. John Cena

55. Mad Dog Vachon

56. Yvon Robert

57. Whipper Watson

58. Gus Sonnenberg

59. Johnny Valentine

60. Genchiro Tenryu

61. Kenta Kobashi

62. Stanislaus Zbyszko

63. Bobo Brazil

64. Hans Schmidt

65. Dusty Rhodes

66. Akira Maeda

67. Tarzan Lopez

68. El Hijo Del Santo

69. Bill Miller

70. Jerry Lawler

71. Jackie Fargo

72. Villano III

73. Mick Foley

74. Evan Lewis

75. Dos Caras

76. The Crusher

77. Toshiaki Kawada

78. Cien Caras

79. Nobuhiko Takada

80. Roddy Piper

81. Vader

82. Edouard Carpentier

83. Mark Lewin

84. Earl Caddock

85. Ed Don George

86. The Undertaker

87. Pat Paterson

88. Henri DeGlane

89. Everett Marshall

90. Dick The Bruiser

91. Carlos Colon

92. Karloff Lagarde Sr.

93. Danny McShain

94. Enrique Torres

95. Atushi Onita

96. Abdullah The Butcher

97. Great Gama

98. Rey Mysterio Jr.

99. Bob Backlund

100. Dump Matsumoto

[Dylan Waco]

My rough thoughts. This is cross posted from Classics. The reference to weighted voting is in regards to an early proposal Pat Laprade had made to give more value to first place votes (and other votes in the five or ten as I recall).

 

Things I am happy with in the finished product:

 

Luchadores did better than I thought they would. Not as well as they did on my list and not as well I was I would have liked to see in an ideal world given my own biases and views, but better than I had feared. Eight(by my initial count) making the top 100 is about five more than I had expected. Also glad Rey squeezed in there at the bottom, though I know that he is a guy who could be debated to death.

 

I have no real argument with who made the top fifteen, though I would quibble a bit with the order. Still that is a rock solid group of names at the top of the heap.

 

The list is pretty broad. Lots of wrestlers, styles, eras, periods, et. have representation. A part of me feels bad that no Joshi worker made the final 100, and McManus barely missed out, but I had a vote and did little to help them so it's hard to complain about that.

 

I don't know that I could argue it on merit, but Bockwinkel finishing so high made me smile.

 

Things I am surprised by:

 

I really shouldn't be, but I am surprised Thesz won. I really thought Londos would take it, and when you consider the fact that both guys were on every ballot, but Londos had almost half the first place votes, it amazes me even more. I will say that this is the area where I agreed with my buddy Pat Laprade that weighted voting made sense. I've been a part of other projects ranking wrestlers and matches before and to me the fight for one is always the big struggle. Whoever I reward with that slot is the guy I am making the biggest statement about. I honestly have no problem with Lou winning this, but in my mind Londos and Hogan were going to be one and two in some order on my ballot from the beginning. To me the fact that Londos got nearly half the first place votes, and twice as many as anyone else, is as telling as anything on the list.

 

I am surprised Mick Foley didn't make the list. I could see an argument against him to be sure, but in my mind he was such a huge part, of such a massive period for wrestling, I had assumed he would squeak into the bottom fifteen or so. I don't think it's a grave injustice that he didn't quite make it, I was just a bit surprised by it.

 

I am also surprised Takada didn't make the list. I would have pegged him as a shoe-in.

 

Tillet finishing as high as he did was a surprise of sorts, though Steve sort of hinted at that earlier.

 

Things I am "unhappy" with in the finished product:

 

"Unhappy" isn't really the right word, as I'm hardly angry, but there are some things I just don't get.

 

I really don't understand the argument for Kurt Angle. This has nothing to do with my thoughts on him as a worker, or anything of that sort. I just don't see him as a guy who was all the influential, and his case as a draw is spotty at best. He was never the top guy in a hot promotion. His peak years as a worker and asset to the WWE coincided with a low point in the post-boom era for the company in terms of business. I don't blame him for that, but it's also hard to give him credit for it. He was a part of some shows that did great business in 01, and I loved aspects of his character during his peak, but if he wasn't an Olympic gold medalist would he be anywhere near the finished product? I doubt it. He is the only guy that ended up making the top 100 where I just strongly disagree with his inclusion at all. But every list is bound to have one of those.

 

I don't buy Michaels that high. I didn't vote for him, but I strongly considered it, and have zero problem with him making the top 100. Still I often wonder how much of his current perception is due to WWE marketing him as this super important star and major player. There is no doubt that Michaels is a Hall of Famer, no doubt that he is viable for a list like this, but when I see him above names like Choshu I just have to shake my head. I get that Michaels headlined some huge shows after his comeback, and I give him credit for the Mania matches with Taker. But given his failures as an ace in the 90s, I just can't see him as a top fifty all time guy.

 

Hogan being left off of two ballots is something I can't defend. There were guys I left off of my ballot who I am not as high on as others (Michaels, Brody, HHH all come to mind), but I think pretty much everyone would agree that they weren't even close to Hogan level stars, and all of them were guys I strongly considered (actually HHH was one of the last five I cut). I have to assume that the people who left him off did for strategic reasons, i.e. the fear he would finish first and trying to thwart that by not voting for him. There is no other argument against him I could buy. I will say that in a weird way the end result was to make his stat line look more impressive, as he easily had the best average ranking (basically a 3 and a half if you do the math). Of course this leads to the question of if you had done weighted voting via the method Pat suggested would Hogan have been able to over take Londos, even appearing on fewer ballots? It's an interesting thought experiment if nothing else, maybe Chris Harrington can tell us what the math says.

[Timbo Slice]

El Santo at 11 to me is hilarious. As much as the 10 guys above him mean to wrestling, there is no wrestler who meant more to his COUNTRY than Santo did. I'm sure national impact was gauged (or international impact, which is what I'm guessing helped you drive Londos to the top, Dylan), but I can't see an argument for any wrestler being as big a deal in their home country as Santo was.

 

Only joshi rep I could see going in is Chigusa, maybe Dump. People would make arguments for Bull, Hokuto, Aja or Toyota, but they didn't have nearly the impact Chig or Dump had. Jaguar was more a super worker than a "star."

 

Hogan being left off two ballots reminds me of every baseball Hall of Fame vote ever.

 

I like the idea of the list being 100 "stars" in the sense that it is more of an open interpretation, too. It takes in the entirety of what a wrestler meant to the business rather than specifics.

[Dylan Waco]

Chigusa was one of my last five off. I hated leaving her off and including Dump, but Dump felt like more of a prototype to me, so I included her. It was one of the picks I was the most conflicted about. I actually had originally had the idea of including Bobby Heenan at 100 and kind of which I had now in hindsight, but oh well. Also if I had known Patera would get totally shut out, I might have given him a vote in the bottom two or three. I don't really think he rises to this level, but there were others who received votes, who weren't near his level.

 

Santo was hurt by being left off of three ballots. His average placement was in the top ten. Honestly I think 11 is almost a miracle for him, as I feared he could fall much farther down.

[Dylan Waco]

Also I always knew who my top three would be, just not the order of the first two.

 

Santo was always going to be three. My reasoning is basically what you just said Tim, though he was never going to break into the top two because he wasn't a huge star for multiple decades, on multiple continents, like the two guys above him.

 

I ended up going with Londos first for two reasons:

 

1. He did it first. When all other things are equal I tend to error on the side of the originator. Not that he was the original star in wrestling, but Londos was the original superstar drawing card of that magnitude.

 

2. Londos held records damn near everywhere he went, and didn't struggle anywhere that I know of. Hogan did struggle for periods of time - albeit in ultimately meaningless ways - during the national expansion. It's a small, small thing in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes a list like this means you end up splitting hairs.

[Dylan Waco]

Expanding on Santo a bit, and doing some quick math, if you go by average rank he finished fourth behind Hogan, Thesz and Londos. That is a good result really.

[Dylan Waco]

Yohe just posted that Hogan was only left off of one list, so I went ahead and changed the numbers above. Still, whoever left them off their list is crazy

[KrisZ]

Here is my ballot

 

1. Lou Thesz

2. Jim Londos

3. Hulk Hogan

4. El Santo

5. Ric Flair

6. Strangler Lewis

7. Gorgeous George

8. Rikidozan

9. Bruno Sammartino

10. Andre the Giant

11. Frank Gotch

12. Antonio Inoki

13. Joe Stecher

14. Blue Demon

15. Buddy Rogers

16. Giant Baba

17. Mil Mascaras

18. Earl Caddock

19. Mitsuharu Misawa

20. Ray Mendoza

21. Verne Gagne

22. George Hackenschmidt

23. Riki Choshu

24. Dusty Rhodes

25. Randy Savage

26. Terry Funk

27. Steve Austin

28. Kenta Kobashi

29. Perro Aguayo

30. Karl Gotch

31. Tatsumi Fujinami

32. The Rock

33. Gori Guerrero

34. Roddy Piper

35. Nick Bockwinkel

36. Farmer Burns

37. Akira Maeda

38. Pat O'Connor

39. Harley Race

40. John Cena

41. John Pesek

42. Gus Sonnenberg

43. Stan Hansen

44. Wild Bill Longson

45. Genichiro Tenryu

46. Jack Brisco

47. El Solitario

48. Gene Kiniski

49. Shinya Hashimoto

50. Don Leo Jonathan

51. Bob Backlund

52. Orville Brown

53. Stanislaus Zbyszko

54. The Sheik

55. Whipper Billy Watson

56. Edouard Carpentier

57. Rene Guajardo

58. Ed Don George

59. Dick the Bruiser

60. Antonino Rocca

61. Keiji Muto

62. Dick Hutton

63. Cavernario Galindo

64. Ricky Steamboat

65. Jerry Lawler

66. Dory Funk Jr.

67. Dick Shikat

68. Canek

69. Freddie Blassie

70. Danno O'Mahoney

71. Danny Hodge

72. Dick Beyer

73. Villano III

74. Sandor Szabo

75. Dos Caras

76. The Undertaker

77. Hijo del Santo

78. Bruiser Brody

79. Toshiaki Kawada

80. Ray Stevens

81. Tiger Mask (Satoru Sayama)

82. Bret Hart

83. Superstar Billy Graham

84. Big Van Vader

85. Pedro Morales

86. Wahoo McDaniel

87. Johnny Valentine

88. Pat Patterson

89. Abdullah the Butcher

90. Mick McManus

91. El Satanico

92. Bill Watts

93. Ted DiBiase

94. Eddie Guerrero

95. Henri DeGlane

96. Rey Misterio Jr.

97. Shawn Michaels

98. Big Daddy

99. Bobo Brazil

100. HHH

[cheapshot]

Can't take this seriously personally, as it appears that Hogan, Flair & Rogers are left off of one ballot and El Santo, Rock & Austin left off of three.

[Marty]

Thanks for posting the results. I didn't participate (I'm still enough of a learner that I doubt I'd qualify) but I did lurk and was aware of the project and was definitely interested in what the final tally would be.

 

A couple things stick out:

 

* 171 - I know it's only two ballots, but how the heck did that happen (the two of them tied for the same spot)?

 

* Sputnik Monroe is listed twice in the final tally. I'm assuming one is a misspell, but there weren't two of them, no?

[Childs]

If you can't take seriously any vote that involves a few nutty ballots, then you can't take any vote on anything seriously.

[cheapshot]

If you can't take seriously any vote that involves a few nutty ballots, then you can't take any vote on anything seriously.

The voters were hand picked due to knowledge etc. I wouldn't of said this if any geek could vote.

 

The six that people have left off are six of the biggest draws of all time, so I cannot fathom why they have done this, other than to get attention for themselves / the list.

[JerryvonKramer]

Dylan, any particular reason why the NWA 70s champs are so high and Backlund so low on your list?

 

Just curious as to why you think Dory Funk Jr is #69 places above Backlund in the overall scheme of wrestling history? Not saying it is wrong or that I disagree, but that I think it would be interesting to flesh out your thinking behind that when you've got Bruno at #12. I've just noted you've got those 70s NWA champs over Bockwinkel as well. And Jumbo.

 

Did Dory vs. Jack Brisco really draw well enough to put them over these sorts of company lynchpins? On the face of it, I'd have thought a guy like Fred Blassie would have been a bigger draw than Dory Jr. Mil Mascaras was probably a bigger star. John Cena definitely is. I'd have thought Dick the Bruiser was.

 

Not having a go in any way, just interested in your criteria and the facts on which you are basing that. My guess without any real investigation is that in each of their respective runs as NWA champ, Dory and Brisco probably didn't draw as much the five names I've picked out there. That's making the prestige of being the NWA champ and working the champ's schedule do a lot of work. Or are you also factoring in workrate?

[mookeighana]

People who appeared on 4+ ballots, in order of birth year:

 

Excluding people that were exclusively promoters, commentators and managers (like Heenan & Albano), the wrestlers that are in the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame which I didn't see on the list here were:

* The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton, Stan Lane and Dennis Condrey)

* Masa Saito

* Martín Karadagian

* Hiroshi Hase

* Most of The Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes and Buddy Roberts) - Terry Gordy was ranked #305

* Último Dragón

* Lioness Asuka

* Devil Masami

* Jackie Sato

* The Fabulous Kangaroos (Al Costello, Roy Heffernan, and Don Kent)

* Dory Funk Sr.

* Tony Stecher

* Stu Hart

* Kensuke Sasaki

 

EDIT: * El Satánico was on there at place #200 - I got thrown off due to the accent mark! Thanks Tofu!

[tofu_chipmunk]

People who appeared on 4+ ballots, in order of birth year:

 

Excluding people that were exclusively promoters, commentators and managers (like Heenan & Albano), the wrestlers that are in the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame which I didn't see on the list here were:

* The Midnight Express (Bobby Eaton, Stan Lane and Dennis Condrey)

* Masa Saito

* Martín Karadagian

* Hiroshi Hase

* Most of The Fabulous Freebirds (Michael Hayes and Buddy Roberts) - Terry Gordy was ranked #305

* Último Dragón

* El Satánico

* Lioness Asuka

* Devil Masami

* Jackie Sato

* The Fabulous Kangaroos (Al Costello, Roy Heffernan, and Don Kent)

* Dory Funk Sr.

* Tony Stecher

* Stu Hart

* Kensuke Sasaki

Satanico was on two lists. Yohe didn't count tag teams as a single slot, leading to (I suspect) depressed numbers among the tag guys.

[Log]

Do any of you all (Dylan? Kris Z?) have any big write-ups on Londos? I knew he was a big deal and all, but I'm (personally) kind of surprised to see him so high. Not at all saying he shouldn't be, I just haven't had any exposure to his career.

[Slasher]

I can't take anyone's list that leaves out Bret Hart. Don't care where he places, as opinions vary but he needs to be there SOMEWHERE.

 

Also, are we ignoring Chris Benoit completely due to his actions or do people really think him not as good? (edit- nevermind, found him)

[KrisZ]

Here is Yohe's criteria and basis for this project

 

A lot of people and at least two books have done “the 100 Greatest Pro Wrestling Stars” lists. Larry Matysik did a top 50 list this year. I never agree with these lists and most people think it’s a lame exercise. Still, when at work with “time to burn”, I’ve found myself putting top 100 lists together. They are never the same. To me, one person’s list doesn't mean too much. Even mine. But I have fun playing around with it even if it doesn't add up to much.

 

I've been thinking that it would be much more interesting if someone could get the best wrestling minds together, guys who had well rounded interests, to put their lists together….and then create a point system to the lists…like #1 =100 points and #100 gets 1 point…and then total the results and see what came up. That seems interesting to me. The results could then be posted on the Thesz Board or if Dave in interested, in The Wrestling Observer. Or both.

 

Now who would be the voters? For me to be involved, it would have to be an International 100 list…that would include History, Japan, Mexico, Europe, North America and present day wrestling. The voter, we are looking for, would have to be very well rounded. I don't think he would have to be an expert in everything, but he'd have to be well read and have some level of interest in everything. I would be looking, not for researchers, but guys who are good thinkers and who can reason things out.

 

The Time period would be from 1860 to present day. That way guys can't vote for Abraham Lincoln or Milo. Or Michael the Archangel. The French Angel is Ok.

 

I know most of the major historians, but I don't know if I want to load up on them because some may have not followed present day or Japan or Mexico. I have 2 or 3 Japanese guy who might be good.

 

There are going to be some major guys who will think this is a silly project & not want anything to do with it. My close friend, John Williams, will turn me down even before I explain it to him. It also is not an easy list to put together. Expectably an international list with Japan, Europe, & Mexico involved. And guys do not like to stick there necks out. I hope I can find a few people at WC to join, if they feel they can do it. Mask would have to play the game.

 

Since I wanted the top wrestling minds, I wanted Dave Meltzer voting. In fact, without him, I would just forget the project. So I asked Dave & he seems willing to be a voter. To me, that’s the top guy. I’ve also run it by Steve Johnson, & he seemed positive.

 

This would be a list of the 100 greatest pro wrestling stars. It’s not about the greatest workers. So a lot of it will be based on how they drew (box office). How well they were known to the non-wrestling world is important…as is there style of wrestling….as is longevity….and their working ability plays a big part…but not everything. (Seeing Jushin Liger or Dynamite Kid in the top 10 would bug me.) I think the number of years a star spent as the top wrestler in the world would mean a lot of points. Influence would count a lot. Gus Sonnenberg & Buddy Rogers changed wrestling styles & that should be in their favor. How much, is up to the individual voters. My thinking is that working ability meant more to the bottom 50 than it did to the top 30 or 20. But the top guys should be the top draws in history. Making money is the game....but it also isn't everything. Any number of things may be involved in figuring out such a list.

 

But once your picked as a voter, it’s pretty much up to you. Only the finish list would be posted or published by me. If a voter wants to publish his….great. It will be kind of like the WON HOF system.

 

I'm looking for wrestling minds. Probably mostly major fans. I'd take some insiders, but they would have to be an insider with a lot of “fan” still inside them. Sorry Flair your not voting! I would like to find 50 voters or more. If this post bombs & I get no interest, I’ll drop the project & delete the post.

 

A lot of people, smart people, see lists as nonsensical…but I think a list made up from top rational wrestling minds would be very interesting…and something to talk about until Ken’s next film discovery is posted. I'm trying to keep the flow going.

[Dylan Waco]

If you can't take seriously any vote that involves a few nutty ballots, then you can't take any vote on anything seriously.

The voters were hand picked due to knowledge etc. I wouldn't of said this if any geek could vote.

 

The six that people have left off are six of the biggest draws of all time, so I cannot fathom why they have done this, other than to get attention for themselves / the list.

 

I honestly think they were strategic votes. It's possible someone blanked on someone as Yohe had a strict "once your vote is in that's it" policy and didn't allow for people to correct errors. Still I suspect these were people leaving people off of lists because they feared they would rate higher than they "deserved."

[Timbo Slice]

But if you're a wrestling fan selected to be a part of this vote and you decide that Hulk Hogan isn't one of the biggest wrestling stars in history, there is a total lack of credibility for that voter. It's not about where they "deserved" to be. Hogan should have been on every ballot. Whether it's at 1 or 100. I can't see someone forgetting to put him on a ballot.

[jdw]

12-Antonio Inoki 1987 24

15-Shohei Baba 1801 22

30-Mitsuharu Misawa 1323 20

34-Jumbo Tsuruta 1283 22

51-Kenta Kobashi 964 17

59-Tiger Mask I (Sayama) 814 17

60-Riki Choshu 807 16

62-Keiji Muto 781 19

64-Genichiro Tenryu 757 16

66-Akira Maeda 695 18

69-Toshiaki Kawada 647 15

73-Tatsumi Fujinami 607 18

89-Shinya Hashimoto 488 14

111-Justin Liger 277 10

120-Nobuhiko Takada 219 10

142-Manami Toyota 146 6

143-Atsushi Onita 146 4

145-Masahiro Chono 135 5

173-Chigusa Nagayo 100 5

181-Dump Matsumoto 87 6

186-Kazushi Sakuraba 84 1

188-Hiroshi Tanahashi 82 4

198-Akira Hokuto 72 3

 

Some funny ones in there, but Toyota one spot above Onita is a hoot.

 

I'm guessing this is more evidence that Maeda wouldn't have gone into the HOF if on the ballot at some point on the 2000s. Er... wait...

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I can't take anyone's list that leaves out Bret Hart. Don't care where he places, as opinions vary but he needs to be there SOMEWHERE.

 

Also, are we ignoring Chris Benoit completely due to his actions or do people really think him not as good? (edit- nevermind, found him)

Make an argument for Bret.

 

My rough draft had over 400 names on it and Bret was one of them. But as I was going through the list pairing it down, guys I had assumed would be locks or have strong chances of making the list starting falling off early.

 

When I look at Bret I see a guy who was the ace of a company doing okay not great. Sometimes things were pretty bad under his watch, but he had some good gates and runs. He was never a massive draw. Never even really a "very good" draw. He had about seven years as a top star in wrestling, but a couple of those years were in free falling WCW, and another chunk of time was on the shelf in 1996. Actually Bret's peak as a star closely coincides with the low point of U.S. based wrestling in the modern era (not his fault, but pretty hard to argue against). In his pre-prime he was in a tag team that I don't rate all that high, and which no one thinks was a draw and was one of a few guys consistently booked on top in Stampede, a promotion that was less successful than the often dismissed Portland.

 

To me the idea that Bret is a "gimme" for a list like this is silly. What on earth did he ever do to be an obvious pick for something like this? I certainly could see him on the list. He's not a bad pick. But an obvious "he has to be on" type of guy? Why?

 

I actually think Bret ended up finishing comically high on the list when you actually look at his career.

[Dylan Waco]

But if you're a wrestling fan selected to be a part of this vote and you decide that Hulk Hogan isn't one of the biggest wrestling stars in history, there is a total lack of credibility for that voter. It's not about where they "deserved" to be. Hogan should have been on every ballot. Whether it's at 1 or 100. I can't see someone forgetting to put him on a ballot.

I understand what you are saying, but as someone who has been involved in polls like this for two decades (holy fuck), strategic voting is common and something you have to expect. I think it is silly, and in most cases makes the project in question look bad, but it is something you can 100 percent guarantee will happen. To a degree we all did little things on our ballots that were probably suspect (I gave Luchadores the benefit of the doubt because I knew they weren't likely to appear on as many ballots as other guys with similar resumes from Japan and the U.S. for example), but leaving the top names off is impossible to defend