Improvement of former indy wrestlers in WWE

[Matt D]

I think it's amazing that after years, maybe decades of people hating the WWF/WWE and how they limit indy guys, pretty much everyone agrees that the system improves almost everyone multifold. Did the indies change, did the WWE change, or did we change?

[W2BTD]

I think it's amazing that after years, maybe decades of people hating the WWF/WWE and how they limit indy guys, pretty much everyone agrees that the system improves almost everyone multifold. Did the indies change, did the WWE change, or did we change?

I don't agree that the system improves (all of) these guys. It's a different style. If you prefer the WWE style to the indie style, then you are going to think they've improved.

 

If Daniel Bryan went back to ROH or DGUSA tomorrow, he's go back to working a style more suited to those places. Some would like it better, some wouldn't.

 

I can tell you right now that as great as Sami Zayn has been, he hasn't had a single match in WWE that would sniff his Top 50 in my opinion. Maybe a little unfair because he hasn't been able to go long, but up until 2012, same for Bryan.

 

Bryan's best year, by far, is still 2006. And I really liked his 2013. He has however fallen into the signature move/WWE pattern style as of late. That sounds like a knock but it isn't. That's what they want and that's how they work. It isn't better or worse than what he used to do. It's just different.

[Jimmy Redman]

I can tell you right now that as great as Sami Zayn has been, he hasn't had a single match in WWE that would sniff his Top 50 in my opinion. Maybe a little unfair because he hasn't been able to go long, but up until 2012, same for Bryan.

I think you answered your own statement there: Sami hasn't really had a chance to have his best match yet. He's still in developmental for heaven's sake. Televised development, sure, but still development.

 

I mean you said it yourself, Daniel Bryan, a guy who was the 'best wrestler in the world' for a while beforehand, took until 2012 to start reaching his potential in the ring in WWE, which coincidentally is when he started to work main events. In WWE for the most part you need opportunities and time in order to deliver on a high end level, at least much moreso than the indies where guys have the freedom to routinely go above and beyond on the undercard.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

I think it's amazing that after years, maybe decades of people hating the WWF/WWE and how they limit indy guys, pretty much everyone agrees that the system improves almost everyone multifold. Did the indies change, did the WWE change, or did we change?

I don't agree that the system improves (all of) these guys. It's a different style. If you prefer the WWE style to the indie style, then you are going to think they've improved.

 

 

Exactly. I'm a fan of freedom myself. I do like the WWE style but I have seen it hurt wrestlers and matches over the years.

 

On the other side of the coin, It is interesting to note that the WWE style is not exactly what it was even 10 yrs ago. For ex, some of what you see today would not have been allowed back than. The WWE has actually gotten more Japanese like/ indyish.

[Matt D]

I think it's amazing that after years, maybe decades of people hating the WWF/WWE and how they limit indy guys, pretty much everyone agrees that the system improves almost everyone multifold. Did the indies change, did the WWE change, or did we change?

I don't agree that the system improves (all of) these guys. It's a different style. If you prefer the WWE style to the indie style, then you are going to think they've improved.

 

 

Exactly. I'm a fan of freedom myself. I do like the WWE style but I have seen it hurt wrestlers and matches over the years.

 

On the other side of the coin, It is interesting to note that the WWE style is not exactly what it was even 10 yrs ago. For ex, some of what you see today would not have been allowed back than. The WWE has actually gotten more Japanese like/ indyish.

 

Which goes back to what I was saying about change. I'm not sure I'd be happy if everything was in the 99 or 03 style. I'm also not really big on the Cena vs Rock video game style with and finisher stealing and what not but I think those matches are rarer now than they once were.

 

I'm curious. Would anyone argue that Punk, for instance, isn't a much better wrestler now than he was when he first got to WWE or before?

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

Can't make the Punk comparison but with Danielson I think it speaks volumes for him that he was able to excel in both the indys and WWE. I've seen various styles have various effects on Bryan's match quality over the years but when I see him in the WWE, I don't see a guy so much (of course it def does some) being awesome because of a WWE style but I guy who I respect for making/modifying his style and the WWE style together to captivate the audience. Bryan's made it work moreso that the WWE working for him. Excellent talent.

[Guest TheGreatPuma]

Does anyone know why the screen gets so long while you're typing a message? It makes it very hard to edit (which I wanted to do with that previous message to clarify some thoughts) and type some things out. I think I may have pressed some button on the keyboard weeks ago or something.

[FedEx227]

Can't make the Punk comparison but with Danielson I think it speaks volumes for him that he was able to excel in both the indys and WWE. I've seen various styles have various effects on Bryan's match quality over the years but when I see him in the WWE, I don't see a guy so much (of course it def does some) being awesome because of a WWE style but I guy who I respect for making/modifying his style and the WWE style together to captivate the audience. Bryan's made it work moreso that the WWE working for him. Excellent talent.

I think it's hard to say they've become better in the sense of Punk/Danielson because the styles are just so different. Danielson doesn't wrestle ANYTHING like he did before. Do I think he's found some nice middle ground in this current WWE style? Absolutely. Does that mean I think it's better than his 03 stuff? Not at all.

 

Different organizations, different objectives, different styles. They've excelled at both IMO and it's impossible to compare or say they've improved or gotten better in an overall sense.

[W2BTD]

I would sure hope Punk is a better wrestler now, he's been in WWE for like 9 years, smack dab in his prime.

 

I don't think Bryan is any better now. Again, I'd argue I enjoy his matches less. And I enjoy the fuck out of his matches now. But I prefer the style he was working previously. Bryan has dumbed it down for the style, which again sounds like a complain but really isn't. He can't do 40 minute matches with small room psychology in basketball arenas in front of kids. It has to be turnbuckle flip-missed clothesline-come off-hit the second one. It is what it is. And he's still excelling because he's great and was able to adjust, which amazingly if you go back many, many people thought he wouldn't be able to. Which looks incredibly dumb in hindsight.

[Tim Cooke]

I'm currently in the midst of re watching all of the best matches from the US Indies in the 2000's with my brother. We are almost done with the project (hope to do a full write up and have a top 20 list by the end of March). There have been many findings that we expected. A couple of examples:

 

* Bryan Danielson had the longest stretch of greatness of any US Indy worker in the 2000's. It's not even close. He was good when he broke out at the ECWA Super 8 in 2001, had a MOTYC against Low Ki at the July 2001 ECWA show, and just continued to steadily grow as a worker through 2006.

 

* Samoa Joe's run was maybe 1/3 of the length of Danielson's but his output in 2004-2005 may be the highest quality of matches of any US Indy worker in the 2000's

 

* For every good match that went the right amount of time, 9 others ran 10+ minutes too long. This was not an individual promotion problem, as ROH, IWA-MS, PWG, Chikara, etc. all had this issue. Nor was it an issue just related to lesser wrestlers. There are numerous Danielson matches, especially when he was ROH Champion, that were too long. I'm not talking about hour long draws either, which despite what you want to think of them, were at least booked with a specific purpose in mind. I'm talking about the 50+ minute match against Roderick Strong from 11/5/05, which was a nice 20 minute match stretched out over 52 minutes. Same goes for the March 2006 match with Alex Shelley. Even the October 2004 match against Joe, which has an outside chance of making the top 20 (probably will fall closer to 30) is 10-15 minutes too long.

 

For all the WWE's flaws, match length is usually not a problem especially in today's environment. I'm a fan of less is more, quality over quantity so I would rather see two wrestlers put together a tight 15 minute match than a 35 minute match that may have some excellent parts but is also repetitive, losing the crowd at various points, and in most cases, goes long for the sake of going long. Most Indy guys who have gone to the WWE have become a lot better at pacing, tightening their move sets, and getting over with larger crowds. Claudio was always a good base and you know he would do some cool stuff in his matches, but most of his Indy matches never felt completed or like a final product. I imagine that Generico, Samurai del Sol, and others will also benefit from this.

 

Punk has obviously improved a lot during his WWE tenure but then again, his growth was always pretty incremental during his indy days. While someone like Danielson was pretty good from the get go, Punk seemed to improve every 6 months, maybe not in a dramatic way, but in re watching the matches, you see a guy who wasn't stagnant in his progression. Just the growth in terms of working from the first 60:00 draw with Joe in June of 2004 to the second 60:00 draw in October 2004 really stands out. Then you see him working opposite Jimmy Rave (someone who is kind of a lost worker of 2005) in Feb 2005 where he is working from underneath the whole match and say, "Wow, I didn't think he could do that." And he couldn't have in the Spring of 2004. But Punk's growth in the WWE is more move set based.

 

The WWE generally doesn't like the goofy, more indy looking moves, which excludes some cool stuff but also weeds out a large amount of garbage. When he first came in and they portrayed him as a kickboxing expert, it was almost as if they were purposely trying to play against his strengths. Yet, today he still does the kicks and the running knee in the corner and it generally looks pretty good (minus the head kick but no one is perfect). Compare this to him using the Pepsi Plunge, the hammerlock clothesline (for lack of a better description) and other moves that weren't nearly as over to the ROH/Indy crowds as his bulldog and Randy Savage elbow are now to WWE fans.

 

Back to Danielson, in the WWE he can't do all of his mat work. It's not the WWE way and it would take a lot of work to get the fans to care about that (though Danielson could make it work, no doubt about that). WCW crowds were generally much more receptive to new styles but that was also 15+ years ago and a completely different generation of fans. Today's WWE crowds would be less likely to accept that stuff right away (if at all). But what I see is a guy who is much more refined and honed in his overall ability (moves, selling, getting over with the crowd). The difference between a 10 minute match with Kane and those 50+ minute matches with Roderick Strong or 25+ with Delirious is negligible. The WWE has only improved him, Punk, and others.

 

Even Rey Jr, who was just off the charts amazing during different times in WCW, benefited from the toned down WWE style, especially as a veteran. Eddy's 2004 against JBL is the opposite work rate wise (at least in terms of speed and execution of move after move after move) of his 2002-2003 in the WWE on Smackdown. Yet those JBL matches and the Rey Jr. matches from 2004 and 2005 certainly equal if not top his best work prior.

[Bix]

I'm with Tim, WWE has made the indie guys better workers. As talented as Danielson's always been, for much of his career he was a guy wrestling for himself and I think it was fair to question whether or not he'd excel at WWE style to the degree he has. We all knew he'd still be a great worker, but he was a guy who came off as doing ironic play fighting when he was a heel in ROH and that just wouldn't translate.

 

Cesaro is absolutely better, I can't see the argument against that. Great worker for years, but nobody, including his biggest fans, was arguing he was top 5 in the world like they do now. Punk is clearly better as Tim outlined.

 

In the previous generation, Eddy, Jericho, Rey, and RVD all got better in WWE, too.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Rollins has benefited dramatically from being in the WWE, I prefer Zayn to Generico (the guy actually has very good facial expressions) and Evan Bourne - who was at one point arguably the best guy on Earth while in the WWE - to the Sydal days. Ambrose? In a weird way I actually preferred him as Moxley in the ring, though I love The Shield as an over all act. Too early to say with Neville/PAC, let alone Callihan. Brodie Lee/Luke Harper is an interesting one because I think he had gotten excellent right around the time he was leaving the indies, but a big chunk of that period was spent working random indies against local hometown heroes and old vets (Tatanka, Danny Doring, et.), so I'm not sure how much of what we see now is the WWE "training" and how much of it is a work that was already in progress.

[W2BTD]

Completely disagree on Bourne, who was neutered in WWE. Nothing he's done can touch his Dragon Gate stuff where he was a whole different level of dynamic even while not being featured.

 

Also completely disagree on Ambrose. I could never get into him on the indie scene and didn't understand the fuss. Now, i'm a huge fan. Same for Harper. Both of those guys have improved in WWE.

 

The people who are arguing Cesaro as top five in the world are people who prefer the WWE style. Again, this is really a style debate, nothing more. I can't be convinced guys like Cesaro, Bryan, and Zayn, who were already great and elite (Bryan was legit best in the world at one point and Zayn to me was easily top five and you could argue #1 before he signed), have improved. It's more like they have adapted because they are great. They are working for the room, as they should. If Bryan got cut tomorrow, he'd be back to working whatever style suited his next landing spot. El Generico had a run where he was having the best match on every single show he was on over a span of something like two years, and doing it in like a half dozen promotions in multiple continents. There is no way i'm buying an argument that he's better now based on a dozen 12 minute NXT matches. Not a chance. Same guy, new style.

[Dylan Waco]

I have less than no interest in Dragon Gate and only watch what I watch because I like to give things a chance every now and again to make sure I'm not missing anything. Also I still love Don Fuji. Anyway, Bourne's sympathetic selling/bumping combo in 2008 made his offensive runs more interesting and dynamic. I thought there was a period that year where he was the best guy in wrestling.

 

Ambrose I still love and wouldn't argue over really, though I loved Moxley on the indies unlike you (he was actually my favorite guy in indie wrestling at one point). Brodie Lee is just much more visible now than he was on the indies. I see zero argument that he's improved in any meaningful way as he was a great base then, very stiff then, very good at match layout then. Having said that the period of his evolution from a good to great worker was spent working obscure indies no one other than me watches so this is likely a perception issue.

 

On Cesaro it's very possible he always had a run like last year in him, but I don't know of anyone who was calling him a top five guy in years past.

[W2BTD]

I always found Brodie Lee to be a bit stiff (not in the working way, but in the not very nimble way) & awkward. In fact, even after he was called up I thought the entire Wyatt Family was stinking it up badly in ring. But lately it's as if the light bulb went on for him (and to some extent, Rowan as well but I still think Rowan is largely shit). I really think he's developed into something fantastic. He can brawl, he can wrestle, his shit is believable, he can sell, he can do it all. If it hadn't come so late in the year, I would have voted him most improved.

 

I think all three Wyatt's have benefited from being in there with great workers every night.

[Bix]

I thought Cesaro was great in the indies, loved all of the weird lucha/Euro hybrid stuff he did. He was a guy who I followed basically from the beginning of his US career and was a big fan of. Having said that, he was nowhere near the elite worker he is now.

 

And you know what? The WWE-ized version of the indy workrate style is far superior to indie workrate wrestling nowadays and has been for years. What's wrong with preferring Cesaro in WWE?

[W2BTD]

I thought Cesaro was great in the indies, loved all of the weird lucha/Euro hybrid stuff he did. He was a guy who I followed basically from the beginning of his US career and was a big fan of. Having said that, he was nowhere near the elite worker he is now.

 

And you know what? The WWE-ized version of the indy workrate style is far superior to indie workrate wrestling nowadays and has been for years. What's wrong with preferring Cesaro in WWE?

To the bold, nothing.

 

What i'm saying is, I don't feel like he's inherently improved. I feel like he's adjusted to his surroundings.

 

I suppose it's maybe the same thing, I don't know.

 

And I agree that the indies have not been great for a few years now. Obviously they've been poached by WWE, and to a lesser extent, TNA (well, really just Aries at the elite level).

[Bix]

I thought Cesaro was great in the indies, loved all of the weird lucha/Euro hybrid stuff he did. He was a guy who I followed basically from the beginning of his US career and was a big fan of. Having said that, he was nowhere near the elite worker he is now.

 

And you know what? The WWE-ized version of the indy workrate style is far superior to indie workrate wrestling nowadays and has been for years. What's wrong with preferring Cesaro in WWE?

To the bold, nothing.

 

What i'm saying is, I don't feel like he's inherently improved. I feel like he's adjusted to his surroundings.

 

I suppose it's maybe the same thing, I don't know.

 

And I agree that the indies have not been great for a few years now. Obviously they've been poached by WWE, and to a lesser extent, TNA (well, really just Aries at the elite level).

 

But do you really think that, at least as a singles wrestler, he hasn't improved in WWE? Or at least that he hasn't played to his strengths/the style hasn't played to his strengths in ways he wasn't able to in the indies?

[Dylan Waco]

Actually this is an interesting discussion - what do we really mean by "improved?" Probably deserves it's own thread.

[Timbo Slice]

Yeah, I was about to say. The ability to adjust to your surroundings IS improvement.

 

Also, this harps back to the conversation in another thread about why Hansen isn't considered an all-time great because he "only" worked Japan, where that's actually the reason he DID become an all-time great.

[Migs]

Actually this is an interesting discussion - what do we really mean by "improved?" Probably deserves it's own thread.

The RVD example above is an interesting one for this purpose. RVD's "improvement" was, at least initially, really just a product of not working in an environment where his match could last as long as he wanted, and working with workers who forced him to keep moving. But the quality jump was huge - ECW RVD in 2000 is almost impossible to watch at times, because the matches are so slow and formulaic, but WWE RVD in 2001 is a joy to watch, having lots of fun matches up and down the card. But if left to his own devices - wouldn't he have wrestled the same way in 2001 that he did in 2000? (I'll say - I haven't watched enough of his post-2001 work recently to comment on how he changed later on).

 

And this would go to the Danielson point - if you believe he'd wrestle a completely different style, basically his 2006 style, in the indies now (not sure that's true, but take it for the sake of argument), then he hasn't improved, he's just adaptable.

[cm funk]

Harper has turned into a pretty awesome tag team worker for the style that WWE has going on. I really enjoy his stuff now, and I thought he was kinda shitty in the initial months the Wyatts were on tv. He's definitely found his groove.

 

I also enjoy Rowan's work, and i think he's been pretty good in his role from the start.

[Loss]

I split this off. This is a split topic from a split topic. Impressive.

[Matt D]

I want some sort of prize.

 

I think there's no way in hell Bryan would wrestle the Kamala match the same way now, for what it's worth.

[Loss]

I was about to joke that it's your fault for posting a response and not talking about KENTA.