G-1 Climax

[KrisZ]

Dylan is absolutely right regarding the hyperbole that has come out from Dave lately. It is seriously getting to Scherer in ECW's heyday levels or Dave in 2008 UFC.

 

Now onto the booking in tournaments like this I think there should be at least one guy who runs roughshot early on setting up the future loss towards the end preferably to someone that you would least suspect could get them but that guy would still win the tournament or whatever and you have also set up something down the road.

 

If you have everyone lose 3-4 matches then what is so special about their losses.

[Dylan Waco]

Since Kris said it first I will say that the Scherer/ECW to Meltzer/NJPW comp is far more accurate than it should be given gap in integrity, decency, journalistic talents, and historical knowledge between those two.

 

And this is coming from someone who is very high on this years G1 as a whole.

[Jesse Ewiak]

The difference is, lots and lots of people are saying the same thing about this year's tournament, at least on the quality of the work. Yeah, Meltzer is a big fan of NJPW-style matches and likely overrates them. By that measure, so do the VoW guys, Alan4L, and probably a dozen other guys I don't know on the Internet. By the same measure, I'm sure plenty of people also think you overrate Titus O'Neill Superstar matches. I don't think that makes you a Dave Scherer-type shill for underpushed WWE guys.

 

But, Meltzer has criticized the booking of New Japan, especially earlier this year and parts of '13. I mean, do you think if say, the Seibu Dome doesn't draw, he'll make excuses for it, or say that the G1 should've been booked differently? And if it does draw, doesn't that mean that Meltzer is actually right and you guys are downplaying how good the booking is, simply because it doesn't appeal to you?

[Guest Eduardo James]

Is Alan4L really being used as an example of objectiveness?

[Timbo Slice]

A lot of people jumping on the G1 bandwagon as far as this being the best tournament ever lack the perspective to call it that. I don't like the sweeping generalizations that come with it basically boiling down to, "We don't like what WWE is doing, so because this is the best alternative we have, this is the best thing ever." And while that statement does look to be a bit ironic, that's why people are praising this more than any other reason right now. No comparisons, no substance, no baseline of what makes something great. Just that it's great. And continues to be great.

 

I haven't been able to watch that much due to work, but nothing's jumping out at me as something where it's obviously better than some of the stuff I've seen WWE do this year. I'm not sure I've even seen a match on here better than Hero/Styles from ROH in March. Instead, the praise is boiling down to what I said above.

[Jesse Ewiak]

Is Alan4L really being used as an example of objectiveness?

I'm not saying he's objective. I'm saying Meltzer isn't on this island calling it the greatest tournament ever. Now, you may disagree with these people, but I see no sleazy Scherer-like connections. They just have a different view of what great wrestling is compared to some of the people on this board. That doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make you guys wrong either, when it comes to the quality of the wrestling.

 

Again, Meltzer's views on why New Japan is drawing or what they're doing right/wrong may in fact be incorrect. But, that's totally seperate from his belief on the greatness of this current G1.

[Grimmas]

The thing that really puzzles me is that the tournament isn't complete yet and it's the best ever? What if Shelton X Benjamin or Bad Luck Fale are in the finals? What if somebody gets hurt?

 

EDIT: How quickly we forget mid 90's AJPW.

[Dylan Waco]

The difference is, lots and lots of people are saying the same thing about this year's tournament, at least on the quality of the work. Yeah, Meltzer is a big fan of NJPW-style matches and likely overrates them. By that measure, so do the VoW guys, Alan4L, and probably a dozen other guys I don't know on the Internet. By the same measure, I'm sure plenty of people also think you overrate Titus O'Neill Superstar matches. I don't think that makes you a Dave Scherer-type shill for underpushed WWE guys.

 

But, Meltzer has criticized the booking of New Japan, especially earlier this year and parts of '13. I mean, do you think if say, the Seibu Dome doesn't draw, he'll make excuses for it, or say that the G1 should've been booked differently? And if it does draw, doesn't that mean that Meltzer is actually right and you guys are downplaying how good the booking is, simply because it doesn't appeal to you?

 

I have been overwhelmingly positive on this years tournament from a work perspective, with three shows I have touted as potential shows of the year, probably a dozen or more matches I've called great (and I tend to be a harder marker than many in general), and several workers I've been incredibly high on. I also enjoy Titus O'Neil performances on Superstars. But I don't say Titus O'Neil is the most underpushed talent in modern wrestling history, or talk about how his tv match with Sheamus was a genius match, far beyond anything New Japan talent could ever dream of achieving. I can certainly be a hyperbolic motherfucker, but I'm not doing that - Scherer was with ECW though..and so is Meltzer now with New Japan.

 

I have no clue what to expect out of Seibu. To me anything less than 23k is disappointing, but I'm not sure Dave would agree with that. The coverage of that will be interesting one way or the other.

 

And as noted above I'm not even sure the parity booking is "wrong" for New Japan. My point was more or less that it would viciously attacked if the WWE were doing it, something I firmly believe based on the way Dave talks about and analyzes the WWE in comparison to how he talks about and analyzes New Japan. I don't want to see Okada v. Tanahashi at the Finals, but I understand the logic in it, and couldn't really criticize NJPW for doing it if they feel like it's their best shot at filling up the Dome. But I also think it's a stretch to call that "genius" as Dave had said it would be.

[KrisZ]

I don't think a lot of this is feeling is because it's opposite of what WWE is doing but the movement going on in every form of entertainment these days that whatever is good now is the best thing ever.

 

Also when I forgot great G1's I forgot to mention 2001 & 2004..which is one of my all-time favorites because of the Tenzan story which this tournament lacks.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll give another example.

 

Today on the board someone made a post about New Japan sweeping the Observer Awards (something I think is almost a shoe in with the major awards). Somehow the topic got on feud of the year and Dave piped up with:

 

"Naito vs. Ishii is feud of the year. Nothing even close."

Now I really liked that series of matches and have no problem with someone voting for that for feud of the year. But really those were just great matches built around the Never title. It's a stretch as to whether or not they helped draw money (technically something that the award is supposed to take into account). Was that feud really so far ahead of say The Shield and The Wyatts in terms of match quality (I think it's behind that feud to be honest) that it's not "even close?" Or for that matter is that feud really a vastly better pick than Rush v. Casas which did one of the strongest houses of the year for the hair v. hair match this week, and has been universally praised by Lucha fans?

Dave watches New Japan with a fan hat first. In many ways I consider this a plus, as I like his enthusiasm for a wrestling product and I think that is a net positive for the Observer as a whole. On the other hand I think it is really bad when it comes to analyzing things or looking at the bigger picture history of wrestling, which is why I cringe when he makes some of the statements he's made recently.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you have everyone lose 3-4 matches then what is so special about their losses.

 

It's the sumo mentality of finishing at least 8-7, and really it's been that way since the earliest round-robin tournaments.

[BillThompson]

 

Today on the board someone made a post about New Japan sweeping the Observer Awards

 

 

My cries of Thatcher/Busick being better than anything NJPW has offered this year were met by silence in the Twitter conversation that eventually came about on that same topic.

[KrisZ]

I will say it is amazing how Dave has turned around on New Japan over the years as NJPW fans me included used to get pissed at how he covered the promotion and now it's a complete 180. I remember when Dave used to gush over NOAH like he does NJPW and the NJPW fans would get so pissed.

[Dylan Waco]

Well regardless of how I feel about Thatcher/Busick (I like it alot,but think Thatcher v. Gulak and Gulak v. Busick are both decidedly better), you aren't going to get much comment on that. Indie wrestling is not something Dave watches or pays close attention to. Or very many hardcore fans for that matter.

[dawho5]

Yeah, was wondering how many in the conversation would have even watched the match. I tend to not comment on things I haven't seen and was wondering if that may have been the case, Bill.

[BillThompson]

Yeah, was wondering how many in the conversation would have even watched the match. I tend to not comment on things I haven't seen and was wondering if that may have been the case, Bill.

 

Oh, it's probably the case, and I'm not upset over it or anything. Viewed it as another chance to get the word out on a match that I think is better than anything coming out of this tournament, and I have liked a fair amount from the tournament. I will say that a match like that, and performers like Thatcher and Busick, really make me shake my head at Dave's comment in regards to American wrestlers not being able to have great shorter matches.

[dawho5]

Honestly, the majority of the matches I liked in watching a lot of Japanese matches were the ones under 25 minutes. If you ask me, 15-25 is about the perfect main event time range. Once matches start going over 25 it seems like there's either a lot of filler or an overlong finish involving way too many kickouts of big moves. Or worse, both.

[Loss]

As someone not interested in full shows, what are the must-see matches from the G-1 so far? Top 10 matches or whatever. Or are there even more than 10 that are must-see? Can someone just list them?

[KrisZ]

Styles vs. Suzuki and Honma vs. Ishii are probably the first two you should watch

[tim]

As someone not interested in full shows, what are the must-see matches from the G-1 so far? Top 10 matches or whatever. Or are there even more than 10 that are must-see? Can someone just list them?

 

Honma/Shibata, which I just rewatched, is must, must see imo. It goes 10:47 and I think it's my match of the year. Otherwise, the top-tier matches of the tournament for me:

 

Honma/Shibata

Honma/Ishii

AJ/Suzuki

Ishii/Nakamura

Naito/Styles

Tanahashi/Shibata

With a bunch of matches just below this level. I don't know about best tournament ever because there's too much stuff that would need to be rewatched in full that people haven't for a long, long time, but I think this totally lives up to the hype. Check out reviews and I'd really recommend trying to see as many of the highly rated matches as you can.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm not sure you could get something even approximating consensus on a top ten. Suzuki v. Styles is the closest thing to a consensus favorite

[Grimmas]

As someone not interested in full shows, what are the must-see matches from the G-1 so far? Top 10 matches or whatever. Or are there even more than 10 that are must-see? Can someone just list them?

 

I have rated these matches *** 3/4 or higher:

7/21: Nakamura vs Shibata

7/21: Okada vs. Styles

7/26: Ishii vs. Honma

7/26: Naito vs. Styles

7/26: Shibata vs. Tanahashi

7/28: Styles vs. Goto

8/1: Makabe vs. Naito

8/1: Styles vs. Suzuki

8/1: Nagata vs. Shibata

8/1: Nakamura vs Ishii

[stomperspc]

As someone not interested in full shows, what are the must-see matches from the G-1 so far? Top 10 matches or whatever. Or are there even more than 10 that are must-see? Can someone just list them?

 

I think if you watch these matches you can get a good feel of the tournament so far:

 

Night #1: Shinsuke Nakamura vs. Katsuyori Shibata; Kazuchika Okada vs. A.J. Styles

Night #2: Davey Boy Smith Jr. vs. Shinsuke Nakamura

Night #3: Tetsuya Naito vs. Toru Yano

Night #4: Tomoaki Honma vs. Tomohiro Ishii; A.J. Styles vs. Tetsuya Naito; Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Katsuyori Shibata

Night #5: Kazuchika Okada vs. Tetsuya Naito

Night #6: Hiroyoshi Tenzan vs. A.J. Styles; Tomohiro Ishii vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi

NIght #7: Tomoaki Honma vs. Bad Luke Fale; Minoru Suzuki vs. A.J. Styles

Night #8: Lance Archer vs. A.J. Styles; Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Shinsuke Nakamura; Tomoaki Honma vs. Katsuyori Shibata

Night #9: Hirooki Goto vs. Kazuchika Okada

 

That's more than ten but the ones in italics are the least essential. That gives at least a glimpse into the main threads of the tournament so far (Styles' performances, Yano's fun schtick, the heavily hyped matches, Honma's underdog run, ect.).

[stomperspc]

Brief Night #9 thoughts:

 

• Opener with DBS Jr. and Honma was fine but not as good as I had hoped. Honma was ridiculously over before and during the match. They did manage a nice near fall but I sort of got the feeling that the crowd realized at a certain point that Honma was not going to win so it was lacking something at the end that some of his earlier matches had. At least, that's how I personally felt watching it. At this point if Honma wins, it will be against a lesser opponent (Gallows, Benjamin) so what's the point? At the same time, its also going to take some of the excitement from his matches. I'd just wait and give him a big win at Seibu Dome (maybe versus Ibushi in a special singles match since Honma was his replacement).
• I liked the continuity of Yujiro working over Archer's leg after Styles' destroyed it on Sunday.
• Nagata/Gallows & Tenzan/Makabe didn't do much for me. Okay matches, but nothing memorable I thought.
• Naito/Suzuki was disappointing. I usually enjoy Naito despite his flaws, but he seemed abnormally off here. He missed rather badly on a couple of moves and just seemed out of step. Suzuki was good but not enough to get this match over the hump. Thought the finish was neat, even if Naito losing kills my VOW contest hopes.
• Shibata vs. Fale was fun. I dug the ending because it was something they have seemingly been building to most of the tournament.
• Kojima/Nakamura was good but both guys have had better matches in the tournament.
• Liked the comedy start to Anderson/Styles as it was both logical and funny. The rest of the match was fine but one of Styles' lesser matches so far.
• Tanahashi/Benjamin did nothing for me but I was a tad distracted when watching it.
• Okada vs. Goto is another one of those New Japan main event type of matches where everything builds to a rush of reversals and near falls. Like Naito vs. Okada, I thought this was relatively well worked in that style. I liked Goto and Okada's match from February and have been meaning to re-watch it. Until I do I am not sure if this one was better but I think it might have been. This match had the same general structure as the first with a slower start, some brawling on the outside, and then an extended finishing run. Best match of the night for me.

[ohtani's jacket]

Honma/Shibata was a lot of fun. Just a balls to the wall 10 minute bout. Not much in the way of psychology, but a couple of neat transitions. I liked the way Shibata broke Honma's resistance at the end with the short uppercut.