Bull Nakano

[elliott]

Yagi is awesome but suffers from having a short career and was not as good as BUll Nakano

[Jetlag]

If Yagi had a Mariko Yoshida-style run of main events in a promotion built around her I'm sure she'd crush most of the competition. That said Yagi/Yoshida is better than any Bull match, and a heck of a lot of other very well respected matches too.

[Grimmas]

32 minutes ago, Jetlag said:

If Yagi had a Mariko Yoshida-style run of main events in a promotion built around her I'm sure she'd crush most of the competition. That said Yagi/Yoshida is better than any Bull match, and a heck of a lot of other very well respected matches too.

I'm going through this stuff and will get to this match, but I so doubt this claim. If you are right that is so incredibly wild.

[Tetsujin]

From what I can say, Yoshida-Yagi is a better match than any Bull Nakano match I've ever seen (including Queendom). I like Bull, and I feel I should like her style more than I do because, on paper, hers is the type of wrestling I would do If I were a pro wrestler. But there's something about her that doesn't click with me as much as other joshi candidates, or great wrestlers in general. She's like a mix of qualities I appreciate, but in small dosis, and you can find what makes her great at bigger scale in other joshi legends.  She's not as brutal as Aja, as dramatic as Hokuto, as menacing as Kandori, as spectacular as Toyota, as vicious as Ozaki, as creative as Satomura, etc. And I can't find a proper word for her: That's maybe because I'm watching her against (what I consider) better wrestlers, so I would love some Bull recommendations where she's the main atrraction, the clearly better wrestler of the match, against lesser known opponents.

[Grimmas]

18 minutes ago, Tetsujin said:

From what I can say, Yoshida-Yagi is a better match than any Bull Nakano match I've ever seen (including Queendom). I like Bull, and I feel I should like her style more than I do because, on paper, hers is the type of wrestling I would do If I were a pro wrestler. But there's something about her that doesn't click with me as much as other joshi candidates, or great wrestlers in general. She's like a mix of qualities I appreciate, but in small dosis, and you can find what makes her great at bigger scale in other joshi legends.  She's not as brutal as Aja, as dramatic as Hokuto, as menacing as Kandori, as spectacular as Toyota, as vicious as Ozaki, as creative as Satomura, etc. And I can't find a proper word for her: That's maybe because I'm watching her against (what I consider) better wrestlers, so I would love some Bull recommendations where she's the main atrraction, the clearly better wrestler of the match, against lesser known opponents.

Every match Bull is in, except the ones against Hokuto, she is the biggest star and the better wrestler. By the end Kong may be on her level, but the first half of their feud Bull is the star. Not everyone connects with everyone, but damn Bull is the complete package for me an is my working #2 behind Hokuto on my GWE list. Also, does a wrestler need to be #1 in every category to be the best? You named one of the best ever in every category and said Bull is not that, but if you took all those categories and took all those people you mentioned, how does she fair?

I don't get the argument that one person had a great match and how that is relevant to discounting another worker. Kandori had the greatest match ever, doesn't mean I rank her 1 or 2. Now your argument, obviously, but from higher up the thread.

 

[elliott]

I think she's clearly the better wrestler in almost all of her matches from 1990 up until the Devil Masami match in 1993. Seriously pick any one. Bull is the established star the next generation if measuring themselves against for that entire stretch. 

Like Nakano vs Kong in 1990 is Bull against a lesser known opponent. Just because we know Kong as a legend now doesn't mean she was an all time great worker or even a vey good worker in 1990. Bull dragged her to greatness over that 3 year period. 

[elliott]

OH, Grimmas beat me to it haha! 

[Tetsujin]

Trying to reply both.

I know the Aja rivalry, and the status she has before, during and after feuding with Bull. I like the rivalry and I love them together. My bad for saying I wanted Bull to be "the main attraction", she clearly was the ace of AJW and the biggest star of her period on top of the mountai, wasn't trying to say she wasnt. What I was trying to say is that, taking Aja as an example, even while still not at her peak and still not the face of the company, you can make a strong argument about Aja being, at least, as good as Bull in their most famous matches. I want Bull against obvious worse workers than her, and I don't think Aja was obviously worse than Bull in the cage match or the title matches from 1992, for example. I want to see Bull matches where the purpose can just be "look how good this match can be because it's a Bull Nakano match", not "look how cool this match can be because it's Bull Nakano, a great wrestlers, against [insert another great wrestler she faced]". I want matches where she's the main attraction from a ringwork perspective.

 

And no, I don't need Bull to be the best at every aspect of her game. It would help to rank her higher, obviously, but there's no need for that because I already see how good she was. I think she's like Tenryu, wrestlers that the whole is better than the sum of their parts. I still like her and will rank her, just not as high as most of the other joshi candidates I'm also focusing on right now. She's very carismatic, energetic, and I can see the argument for her being a total package in the ring, but I believe some other joshi contenders took some of Bull's aspects to next level of greatness, and defined their ringwork better focusing on them and adding more personality than her.

[Kadaveri]

I think you're inadvertently penalising Bull for being extremely good at getting the best out of lesser opponents. There's plenty of footage of Aja Kong in 1990, and she never looks remotely like a great wrestler in any of it unless she's wrestling Bull. Just lots of aimless smashing. With Bull she gets plugged into a structure.

Maybe try this match if you haven't seen it: Bull Nakano vs. Yumiko Hotta 01/23/91. It's a handheld of a house show but probably the best place to see Bull have great main event with someone who clearly isn't in her league.

[Grimmas]

Kong in 1990 wasn't great, she was way down the totem pole, behind Bison Kimura, Nakano, Hokuto, Hotta, and probably others I'm forgetting.

 

[elliott]

I don't see how someone can look at the 8/90 tag match for example and say Kong is on the same level as a performer. The famous kendo stick spot is sort of symbolic of this fact and worked as such with Nakano no selling Aja's weak ass shots and then ripping Kimura's stick away from her and instead of going after her, Bull specifically goes over to Aja and breaks the kendo stick over her head. Showing Aja how hard she needs to hit if she wants to compete on Bull's level. 

Aja by 1992 has greatly improved and is lightyears ahead of where she was...because she spent the previous years learning at the feet of BUll Nakano. Watch an Aja match from 1988. You'll think its a different person. By the time Bull was through with her, Aja had turned into the world class worker we'd all come to love. I also think Aja never had matches better than the ones she had against Bull, but I think Bull had better matches than the ones she had with Aja.  

I really don't exaggerate when I say pick any match and Bull is working with a lesser opponent and that she was the best person in every match she was in from like 1990 up through the 1993 Devil match. We can watch the matches now knowing what would happen, but when Bull is working against Manami Toyota or Kyoko Inoue in 1990, they aren't MANAMI TOYOTA or KYOKO INOUE yet. They're 2-2 1/2 year vets are that point who don't have a ton of big match experience. You can watch the matches and clearly see Bull is leading the matches and responsible for the structure and psychology during those 90-92 years. 

[ohtani's jacket]

First of all, Bull keeps saying that the Matsunagas were in Bull and Aja's ears trying to get them to hate each other and that a lot of the emotion in the ring was real. I don't know how much of that you can believe, but from what Bull says it wasn't a case of Bull dragging Aja to her level, but Bull fighting to retain her position.

I think Bull was a good worker from her rookie days through to her retirement, but I don't think she had great matches with the younger girls when she was the company ace. Some good matches, for sure, but nothing amazing. And by the time the interpromotional era rolled round, she was downplayed by All Japan Women and didn't have a lot of singles match opportunities. 

[club]

Watching some 90s Bull recently and one aspect that stands out to me is her great selling. She’s one of those wrestlers who’s fine until she isn’t. She starts off as this imposing monster brushing off attacks and then by mid-match her hair is all over the place, her make-up is smudged and she has this pained, dejected look on her face, like she can’t believe she’s having to go through all this. It gives her this air of vulnerability and sympathy whilst remaining a total badass.