So ... Joshi (As promised)

[Loss]

This discussion is awesome, I have to say. Matt, your post was everything I hoped it would be, although I'm sorry if it took a lot out of you. Dawho, your post is awesome too. It's a tough watch for sure, even though it's a classic in every sense of the word. Dylan once said he felt couldn't watch the match again because he felt like there was rape subtext. I wonder if he still feels that way and he'd be willing to elaborate.

[ohtani's jacket]

Is it just me or did Matt make it out to be the Return to Oz of the schoolgirl era?

 

For what it's worth, AJW got in hot water over the match in Kansai and lost TV there for a while. Dump's parents also suffered some harassment during this period.

[soup23]

Will match discussion threads be created for these? I dug in and watched the first Dump vs. Chigusa hair match and the Jaguar vs. Lioness match last night but didn't want to double post.

[Loss]

Eventually, yes. But the board upgrade impeded some of my progress there. I'd recommend using this thread to talk about the matches. Later, I'll use the quote function to drop previous thoughts in the match-specific threads.

[soup23]

Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto - 8/28/85

 

1985 was quite the year for emotionally charged matches between this, LLT Dundee vs. Lawler and I Quit Tully vs. Magnum. In the past month, we saw a great heel dominating performance match when Brock Lesnar destroyed John Cena. We also saw an emotionally charged roller coaster ride of a match with real stakes in place with Atlantis vs. Ultimo Guerrero. This match combined the best attributes of those matches into one total package for me. I had seen this before when I was in my peak of NOAH watching and Japanese wrestling consumption. I appreciated the passion but didn't feel it because of my insistence on seeking out moves and technical ability above all else when it comes to wrestling. I still value execution somewhat but I have grown the fuck up in a lot of ways when it comes to wrestling in the past ten years. This match gripped me more than almost any other in history when I watched last night. The best word I can describe the match is interesting. I'm not sure if it was great, I'm not sure what I would rank it on a star scale, but I damn sure know it has consumed a ton of my thoughts in the past 12 hours.

 

Harrowing isn't a word that I would describe most matches even when a great sense of peril is faced. Peril occurs in every match and whether you are a face fan or heel fan as a kid or in later points in your fandom a fan of this worker or that, the person you are "rooting" for almost always faces peril in any match they compete in. Yet, it is rare that I get an emotional attachment to the story being presented. I can be intrigued by it and applaud and be overly excited with the components of it, but there is still a great divide that this is just a wrestling match. This match rocked me to my core. The reason I like the I Quit so much is the sense of embarrassment you see in Tully as he has to scream YESSS. This is a despicable human, but yet he has emotions like the rest of us. Throughout my life, I have encountered people that seem to have coasted by. They take short cuts in life even if it wasn't necessary. I loathe those people on one level but deep down, if given the choice, I might utilize the same strategy. That layer of depth that is portrayed in this match is majestic. It is easy to see on the surface to see how terrible Dump is and how much you crave that big Chigusa comeback and victory. A deeper look though reveals two women with an army of supporters that are absolutely convicted of their actions.

 

Dump will use every trick in the book to obtain victory and does throughout the match with reckless abandon. I have seen numerous matches with more spectacular spots around weapons or stiffer strikes overall but the vitriol and detest depicted here is extremely rare. Chigusa is busted open creating more sympathy and is dedicated to the cause of locking on the Scorpion Deathlock. I am unsure if this is a signature move she uses or not but this was where the Meta of wrestling as a whole became brilliant because this was the same move that created one of the biggest North American stars in history 12 years after this match. Here the struggle finally pays off and Chigusa locks it in with blood running down her face. Then Dump is able to reach the ropes and all hope is dashed away. The final moments with Chigusa pleading with the fans by pointing in the air felt like the last gasp of desperation and her trying to convince herself more than anyone that she had a fighting chance. Dump’s strut after the chair shot is the stuff of legend and she is certainly proud of her accomplishments as the crowd gasps and realizes what had just occurred.

 

The post match even raises the stakes on the emotion temper which I thought was impossible. Chigusa goes back on her word because this is an instance where her pride and honor is more important than getting her head shaved. Dump sees this as a slap in her face and the viewer is conflicted where Dump is technically in the right, but the punishment seems too severe. It is a stunning scene and an absolutely essential portion of the overall package. Dump parades to the back and all Chigusa can do is be consoled by her friends with empty promises. This was storytelling at its finest and a hallmark moment in the annals of pro wrestling.

[soup23]

Lioness Asuka vs Jaguar Yokota - 8/22/85

 

I'd recommend watching this after the first hair vs. hair as watching both of those back to back may provide to be too taxing.

 

This was a great ass match worked in a more traditional sense although any match kind of feels that way compared to Dump vs. Chigusa. The opening stanza of "indy respect" mirror spots and quick reverses was done at a speed rare in wrestling. This was one of the better types of sequences of this kind I can remember and it ending with Jaguar narrowly escaping a big punch from Lioness provided an awesome visual.

Jaguar really impressed me with her leg work. it was relentless and she was a great technician. I am conflicted on the comeback as it felt like Lioness kind of blew off all of this groundwork only for the ending to be a nice callback, but I was engaged with the increased activity of the striking and big bombs each lady was throwing at each other.

Jaguar become someone I instantly wanted to see a lot more of. Giving star ratings, this felt around ****1/4- ****1/2 to me.

[TRMD]

I watched the first one. Excellent match. Had an Undertaker/Flair at 18 vibe to it. And, uhh, Dump is AWESOME. Her bad ass strut around the ring after mashing Chigusa with the chair was hilarious. Never watched a single second of Joshi. I think this was a great first pool to dive into.

 

BTW, What was Chigusa screaming at the end? Because it kinda gave me chills.

[JerryvonKramer]

Chigusa Nagayo vs Dump Matsumoto (8/28/85)

 

I just watched this and I don't really know what to say. Not because of the match, but because of the gap between my reaction to it and seemingly everyone else's. Let me put it this way: Chad's review up there is much better than the match itself. I almost feel like I want to watch it again to see what I'm missing.

 

I did really enjoy the entrances, especially Dump and "her leather-clad-butch-lesbian-underground-club bitches of 80s doom". Dump sort of reminded me of a kind of cross between Abdullah the Butcher (in the weapon usage, the insane levels of cheating etc.) and Stan Hansen (in the dominant, bully-beef style) with a whole load of unique character work of her own thrown in. I did think her heel performance was great. The parts are all there: the villainy of the weapon usage, the total dickery of still using short-cuts despite Chigusa being obviously near-beaten, the cocky little swagger after the chair shot, the smug self-satisfaction at the victory. It's all there.

 

But something in this match felt missing to me. I've had a think about what it was and really it amounts to this: the heat sequence that leads to Chigusa being bloodied and beaten just isn't violent enough. That might sound ridiculous, but I mean ... what did Dump actually do to her? We get a half crab, a few shots to the head with the handle of the scissors, and a chair shot. I'm not being churlish, but if I'm meant to put this up there with Magnum and Tully or the Sheik/Abby vs. Funks stuff I love so much, there has got to be more there.

 

Now, I agree with everyone that the scorpion deathlock (which I assume is her signiture hold, cos she has "Scorpion" written down her leg) spot is magical. Fantastic visual and moment. It's everything a babyface comeback spot should be and more. But my problem is that I don't feel like the match to that point had earned it. The offense from Dump before that just wasn't severe enough for it to truly pay off ... at least not for me.

 

The post-match with the crying fans is definitely something to see, and I was pretty transfixed by it. But I'm not sure I entirely understand the psychology of Chigusa not taking her just desserts. Perhaps there is some cultural or gender thing I'm missing. Traditional wrestling psychology would say that in that instance, the babyface has to front up "man up" and take what is coming to him. Chigusa does the opposite of that here and essentially runs away / begs off. She doesn't get a pass from me there just for being a woman, perhaps someone can explain that to me. I don't really buy Chad's explanation because -- as I've said -- Dump's offense didn't seem that severe anyway. Take your hair cut like a proper wrestler Chigusa! Ha ha.

 

On the plus side, it made me really want to watch the rematch which I will do soon. To me this felt like a setup for an inevitable blow off. And it achieved some tremendous heat for Dump and a rare level of sympathy for Chigusa (how often did the fans in Joshi actually cry?) But I wasn't really overawed by this. That said, I have high hopes for the rematch, and did think that both workers were great in their roles here.

 

***3/4

 

I will say though that I have totally no problem watching Joshi. This just felt like pro wrestling to me only it was women rather than men. In fact, it was a hell of a lot easier to get into than Lucha has been for me to date, chiefly because I was able to follow it and knew exactly what was going on which I haven't always been able to do with Lucha.

[Matt D]

All I'll say is that sometimes you don't need to do a lot of stuff, if the stuff that you do is presented in a way that means something. I thought it was. On your first watch, you obviously didn't.

[soup23]

Agree with Matt, this doesn't have the violent visuals that I described above but the emotion was there for me all the way and it drew me in just the same.

[ohtani's jacket]

Why do you need to do more than have your forehead repeatedly stabbed with a pair of scissors to bleed? Dump works the cut open after Chigusa has tried to cut her hair, and Chigusa tries to cut Dump's hair because she's actually being owned on the mat and having all her comebacks cut off. She doesn't resist the hair cut at the end either. The crowd and her team don't want her to have her hair cut and especially not by the heels. I think the comparisons to Magnum/Tully are a bit off because it's not the blow off match. That was the second hair match. This match was designed to purely shock.

[soup23]

Comparisons OJ were strictly for the emotions it conjured up for me, not on the progression of the storyline for each match up.

[ohtani's jacket]

Okay, for anybody else who watches, keep in mind that it was really a huge upset. Most people would have picked Chigusa to prevail in a close fought bout, but it wasn't even close really. Dump steamrolled her and the loss sent shockwaves through the audience at home.

[ohtani's jacket]

Am I watching the wrong match or did Abdullah do even less before busting Terry open than Dump?

[Dylan Waco]

Loss is right - to me it is nearly impossible to watch Dump v. Chigusa. The stabbing, the post-match panic with people shrieking unable to do anything, the power dynamics...it has always made me uncomfortable. That's not to say it wasn't great for what it was, just that the torture porn/simulated rape aspect of it is too much for me.

[JerryvonKramer]

Am I watching the wrong match or did Abdullah do even less before busting Terry open than Dump?

I don't think that match is built around a Terry comeback spot though. If you read my review you'll see that it's the Dory/ Sheik stuff that puts it over the top for me. Even though the Terry / Abby stuff is great. I think Abby's psychology in that match is better than Dump's by some distance.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, I watched them both back-to-back and would probably put Chigusa/Dump at *** 1/2 and the Funks tag at ** so we are not on the same book let alone the same page.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well look on the bright side, we were pretty close on the Dump match.

[soup23]

Jaguar Yokota vs La Galactica - 2/27/85

 

My final match in my trilogy of greatness from last night.

 

This seemed like a good match to throw up to people that classify Jaguar as a "cold" worker. She starts off here with a fury and is ripping at the mask of Galactica less than a minute in. I loved the onset of this and the cronies for at Galactica being stunned for being one upped using these tactics. Of course, Galactica was bound to come back and boy does she ever attacking the arm with a vengeance. Blading of the arm is one of my favorite wrestling things when done sparingly and this was a great example of it adding a little extra bit of intensity to the frantic situation. The interference being blatant can be annoying in the middle of this but at least the seconds stayed mostly out of the way. Galactica does a great job attacking and dragging Jaguar around and Jaguar sells wonderfully. Her comeback had me there every bit of the way and the countout victory felt like a smart way to give her the win but to keep Galactica strong. Jaguar is rising up my ranks with a fury.

 

****1/4

[Jimmy Redman]

At some point I would love it if someone did the same thing for lucha. There's a lot of talk on the board about it, but I'm sure there are other lucha novices out there besides me who would appreciate a 'let's start from the beginning' run through.

[Loss]

Feel free to start a thread and ask for suggestions.

[Matt D]

I watched the second Chigusa/Dump hair match. Diminishing returns played in a little, but only a little. I've got various things I want to talk about.

 

The build is something I love, and the reason for it is because it's so outlandish. It's sort of like the world's most violent episode of Jem. I don't even like sports much. I don't. I don't want real sports build in my wrestling, not often. Sometimes it works because it's logical, but that's the only reason why I ever like it, because I like logical narratives. I want stories. I want narratives. I want fiction that is true to itself. I said before that I, when younger (and now with my kid too), watched a lot of anime, and that's very much what I liken this to. It was like a high school drama where you had the bully who has been driven to extremes but really just wants to be loved terrorizing the school, and all of the teachers (or in this case the officials and the ref) and no one can stand up to her but the one student with a huge heart and endless courage. It's that. Just with, you know, scissors and a chain (though that's not out of the realm of possibility for those either). What we have here then is this strange intersection of over the top, pure pop storytelling and this obscenely visceral "real" exploitative violence.

 

The match itself. The structure was fine. Dump spits the Water(malt whisky?) in Chigusa's face to begin which KOs the immediate revenge element. It's all pretty minimalist. Ref threatening and violence. A few concealed weapon shots. A piledriver. The people outside trying to stop the carnage when they can only to suffer for their trouble. The hope spots all mean so much: Chigusa gets one sole comeback because the ref found the courage to stand up to Dump. Later, after the cut off, she moves out of the ring and walks around the barricade to draw more strength from the crowd. Dump comes after her with a chain though. She powers up out of a bear hug because the fans cheer for her and chant her name once the hold is locked on which is beautiful babyface wrestling. Dump pulls her off the ropes and puts her right back in it but she has the power of the fans within her now and she puts on the Scorpion with a brutally bloody face. It's to no avail though. The match cycles to a repeat of the end of the previous one. Dump brings in an object, forces Chigusa down, prances around the ring in victory, but this time Chigusa beats the count, hits a quick roll up, and the ref ignores the shoulder being blatantly up for three because it's the right thing to do.

 

I didn't love the finish. It was good for a second match out of three, maybe, but there was no sense at all that Dump couldn't have just killed her. She had her comeuppance because of her arrogance (and maybe because the ref found his courage due to Chigusa) but you got the sense that she was playing with Chigusa the whole time and since wrestling isn't a story that ends, necessarily, that next time she got her hands on her, she'd kill her dead. It felt like a fluke, not like something meaningful that was built to. Maybe that was a way of keeping Dump's heat but it wasn't satisfying at all.

 

Now, were this some sort of drama meant for the core audience, here's what would happen: Dump would reluctantly admit respect for Chigusa after this, stemming from the fact that she wasn't just a popular girl, but that she was TOUGH to have beat the ten count. Like I said, all Dump really ever wanted, like any true bully, was to be loved. Bull would see this as a sign of weakness, and more than that, as outright blasphemy, because while Dump was organically created, Bull was a monster of her own making, someone that Dump shaped into the person she had become. She turns on Dump, takes the faction, and Chigusa makes the save, which would then lead into some sort of crazy reluctant tag of Chigusa and Dump, with the former offering true friendship to the latter (which is a huge trope for this sort of thing) against Bull and someone even more visibly monstrous like, I don't know, Mad Maxine.

 

I don't think that happened though.

[ohtani's jacket]

Since you know that wrestling is an imperfect form of storytelling, aren't you just using the anime analogy to amuse yourself? How do you deal with the lack of continuity in lucha?

[Matt D]

That's fair.

 

I think that, for starters, I never used that analogy before and I'm only using it here in this specific way because that's what this felt like to me, and in that regard it (Being the build and the general feel of what they were going for with everything right up until the bell rang) appealed to me, maybe because it's an element I DON'T see in a lot of other wrestling?

 

With lucha, you know I've been watching a lot of stuff on a week to week basis and while that can be frustrating, I do think I've found more in the way of serialized storytelling within the matches than I was expecting. It's in the work itself which is a side effect of the same guys working each other for months. It's not nearly as well thought out as I'd like though. I do think because not a lot of people in our circle look at lucha in this way (instead of trying to hit great matches, which is a probably more rewarding way to do it, to be honest, especially considering the footage lapses), I'm not sure if this element isn't somewhat underestimated?

 

That said, I sure do like to amuse myself.

[dawho5]

Also Matt, don't forget the massive differences in the head shaving. The first one is Dump forcibly shaving Chigusa's head while Chigusa's friends can do nothing. But when Dump loses, she leaves, comes back of her own volition and has her friends shave her head. It's like some kind of twisted "even when you in, you lose" kind of deal.