[SPLIT TOPIC] Today's wrestling vs wrestling from the past (From Lawler GWE thread)

[Loss]

Well, fans have also changed. Wrestlers used to condition fans to want what they were willing to give them. Now, it's more that fans demand from wrestlers what they want of all things possible, and the wrestlers are puppets who execute that. I think there's an art to the first type of thing and not so much for the second type of thing, although both have their positives and negatives. The best path is probably a happy medium. It would be interesting to pinpoint when exactly it was that wrestling fans became so entitled.

[Loss]

To expand a little more on that, there was a time when a "Boring!" chant would have resulted in the wrestlers slowing things to almost a complete crawl until people got it out of their systems and then luring them back in. At a certain point, "Boring!" became a hint to pick up the pace. The wrestlers are the performers, but it's weird, like sometimes it's the fans that are working the wrestlers instead of the other way around.

[soup23]

To me the landscape is starting to become more reminiscent of the territory system and 2001-2004 initial indy boom. There was a time frame from perhaps 2005-2011 or so where most indies felt the same and didn't do a good enough job of distinguishing themselves. One exception to that would be Chikara during that time frame and to a lesser extent I could see an argument for PWG.

 

The reason I was all into the indies in 2001-2004 was the shear variety. You had IWA-MS being worked like a true territory with weekly cards, ROH as the catch -all indy talent show, CZW mixing in imports, deathmatch and highspot showcases, NWA Wildside bringing southern style flavor and featuring managers, a young CHIKARA, random Canadian indies where Steen, Generico and Sexxay Eddie cut their teeth, JAPW having Japanes style bombfest featuring the Da Hit Squad in a sketchy arena and California indies featuring talent that didn't travel east very often in Jardi Franz, Bobby Quance and Super Dragon.

 

The last couple of years have done a good job of bringing about that diversity in the ways Joe speaks of. As a result, this is an exciting time for indies and to see what talent will emerge.

[KrisZ]

Back in the territories you either worked a weekly circuit, bi-weekly circuit, or hit one a month shows like WWF so you had to do everything to get crowds every week and yeah they were playing bigger rooms than they are now also they had weekly TV where very few indies have that.

 

Joe has merit to his point as yeah there are guys that bounce around but the days of a regular circuit are over with.

 

Take into consideration what the Memphis loop used to look like

 

Sunday = Jackson, Tennessee and spot shows

Monday = Memphis, Tennessee

Tuesday = Louisville, Kentucky and spot shows

Wednesday = Evansville, Indiana and Nashville, Tennessee

Thursday = Lexington, Kentucky and spot shows

Friday = Tupelo, Mississippi, Jonesboro, Arkansas, and spot shows

Saturday = Nashville, Tennesse and spot shows

 

There is nothing like that these days and it's a shame because the territory system was so valuable for talent to get better plus when they got burnt out somewhere they could go somewhere else and be fresh. Also today you don't have the luxury of guys making a debut somewhere and no one really knowing about them like back then yeah you had the Apter mags and maybe you had cable but say someone like Steve Keirn could go from Florida to Georgia and to Memphis and each new spot he had to be reintroduced with a backstory.

 

I'm not a big fan of comparing eras because of the varying differences involved and this comparison is one of them because these guys today can't help the situation they are forced to work with.

[Childs]

Well, fans have also changed. Wrestlers used to condition fans to want what they were willing to give them. Now, it's more that fans demand from wrestlers what they want of all things possible, and the wrestlers are puppets who execute that. I think there's an art to the first type of thing and not so much for the second type of thing, although both have their positives and negatives. The best path is probably a happy medium. It would be interesting to pinpoint when exactly it was that wrestling fans became so entitled.

 

That's the whole world though, right? A person, especially someone living outside a big city, had relatively few entertainment options, even in the '80s. Now, anyone anywhere can pick between thousands of options at the click of a button. So we're all more prone to expect the shit we choose to fit exactly what we want. If not, we move on quickly. I'm not at all sure this is good for us. But so it goes.

[Matt D]

Back in the territories you either worked a weekly circuit, bi-weekly circuit, or hit one a month shows like WWF so you had to do everything to get crowds every week and yeah they were playing bigger rooms than they are now also they had weekly TV where very few indies have that.

 

I find modern CMLL very interesting to watch because of the weekly necessities. It's obviously something I love we have so thoroughly documented in Portland with Buddy Rose.

[Loss]

I also want to add that there's a difference between working and performing. I know we've talked before about pre-planned layouts not really making much difference as wrestling fans. Most of the time, that's true, and something like Savage-Steamboat at Wrestlemania III is still a great match to watch today. But there are times when it does. WWE matches *feel* rehearsed and blocked out to me much of the time, even when they are well-executed, instead of feeling extemporaneous and reactive in the moment.

 

I remember the story from 2003 about Hogan getting furious when he teamed with Angle and Lesnar at MSG on a Smackdown, and the fans were chanting for Hogan by name and neither guy would tag him in because that's not how the match was laid out in advance. To me, that's a negative reflection on both of them, and Hogan's anger was justified. Then there's Randy Orton, who has shown a few times how lost he gets when there's a legit injury or something goes wrong and the planned match can't be executed. There's that 2002 match where Kevin Nash tore his quad and Shawn Michaels had to actually come in the ring and call spots because no one else involved really knew what to do.

 

There's very much a difference in wrestlers feeling out a crowd and doing what feels right that night and wrestlers doing what agents tell them to do. It seems like the best skills you can have now are memorization and athleticism, because you're just executing a vision that was decided ahead of time. I'm not mentioning that to be an absolutist, because there are times when it probably makes sense to lay things out in advance. I don't think the days of Flair-Steamboat going in the ring and working 55 minutes at Clash VI only knowing that they're going to do some type of disputed finish, but not having a specific idea ahead of time of what it will be are coming back. But I do know that even the great matches - the ones I like - often feel sterile.

[Matt D]

This is probably my favorite Randy Orton moment since his freak out over being stuck in Cleveland..

 

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm going to throw out some names who were the product of the system I'm talking about and I'd like people to tell me what the modern equivalent would be who has been produced by the indies. Okay?

 

Arn Anderson

Ted DiBiase

Dick Murdoch

Bobby Eaton

Ricky Morton

Tully Blanchard

Barry Windham

Rick Martel

Buzz Sawyer

Butch Reed

 

There are 10 names of people from various backgrounds with varying different degrees of success. Arguably none of them was ever quite as big a star as someone like Daniel Bryan in that none of them worked as the ace of the WWF/E. They all had periods as midcard acts.

 

Who are the the modern equivalents of these guys? We could do 20 or 30 more, but let's start with 10.

 

I'm not having a go at anyone by the way, I'm just very sceptical that the indies of the past 15 years are producing comparable workers at that midcard or upper midcard level. Experienced, seasoned pros who know how to work. Ring generals who can call it in the ring and control the pace and tone of a match, as well as the crowd. Guys who can slot into various different roles.

 

It's all very well pointing to your Bryans and Punks, but the claim made was "exceptional world class talent" -- of which I'd say the 10 guys I listed were despite not being top top superstars. I'm off out for the next few hours, I look forward to learning about who the modern Arn Anderson is.

[Childs]

Not going to do one-for-one comparisons, because that seems like a waste, but:

 

Daniel Bryan

Cesaro

CM Punk

Dean Ambrose

Seth Rollins

AJ Styles

Chris Hero

Sami Zayn

Luke Harper

Samoa Joe

 

I'm not saying that group is as good as the territory group you threw out. We frankly don't have the time or perspective to make that judgement. But it's a diverse bunch that could appeal to lots of different tastes. And most of the guys have been considered top-10 workers or at least been integral to MOTYCs. Given that you haven't watched much of these guys, you do sound like a huge crank just dismissing them.

[Matt D]

I actually think a DEPTH CHART: 1981 vs 2014 podcast might be interesting. You'd need someone like Dylan who's pretty well versed in both groups though. Any voice that's just versed in one or the other would end up as noise, I think.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm on my phone on a train so must keep it short. Don't think I was clear in what I was asking for. In the comparison Bryan or Punk would be your equivalent of Ric Flair (ie. top main event worker at world title level). I'm looking for the guys a bit lower down the card, not the top top names.

 

I'm also not dismissing anyone.

[moazzam23]

Bryan had only been a main event ace for a couple months before he got injured, but you could take out him and Punk and add Austin Aries, Sami Callihan and Sheamus.

[FedEx227]

I actually think a DEPTH CHART: 1981 vs 2014 podcast might be interesting. You'd need someone like Dylan who's pretty well versed in both groups though. Any voice that's just versed in one or the other would end up as noise, I think.

 

We certainly have the avenue and rapport to do this. I would love this subject, Dylan, let's keep this in the back of our pockets.

[Matt D]

I do sort of think that the people who feel strongly about this should be on the sidelines and it should be more of an analysis than an argument, but yeah, I'd listen

[JerryvonKramer]

Bryan had only been a main event ace for a couple months before he got injured, but you could take out him and Punk and add Austin Aries, Sami Callihan and Sheamus.

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ...

 

Greg Valentine

Tito Santana

Terry Gordy

Jim Brunzell

Ron Garvin

Paul Orndorff

Ken Patera

Dennis Condrey

Manny Fernandez

Adrian Adonis

 

Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching.

[Goodear]

I think a lot of the difference now is that everyone (obvious exaggeration is obvious) works a main event style where everyone works 20 minute minimum matches with all these high spots and near falls because that is how you have 'great matches' and get noticed. Matt has raised the point in other threads about how we pick and chose matches to watch now rather than whole shows. As such, the sub-ten minute undercard match with shine, heat, rally, finish has vanished in favor of several changes in momentum and near falls. So, yeah, there isn't an Arn Anderson out there right now because his role has vanished from everywhere but WWE and if you haven't been IC champion there at least twice, what have you done?

[rovert]

 

I actually think a compare and contrast between the indies of the last 15 years and the territories is interesting subject matter that need not get into a nasty battle about the past or present being demonstrably better. I do think there were more avenues to make a decent living in the territory era, which probably kept more guys around to become experienced workers. But I also have to agree with Joe that the indies haven't exactly failed in producing top-shelf workers more recently.

 

There are differences for sure, and both have advantages & disadvantages. I'm not knocking the territories at all. What i'm trying to get across, is the old territories & the indie scene aren't as different as some people may think.

 

 

Look at Scott Hall, Ricky Steamboat and Ted DiBiase Sr. among others they all wanted their sons to travel the World before joining the WWE system.

[KrisZ]

And back in the territory system almost every major name toured Japan at least once....very few never went.

[FedEx227]

I think a lot of the difference now is that everyone (obvious exaggeration is obvious) works a main event style where everyone works 20 minute minimum matches with all these high spots and near falls because that is how you have 'great matches' and get noticed. Matt has raised the point in other threads about how we pick and chose matches to watch now rather than whole shows. As such, the sub-ten minute undercard match with shine, heat, rally, finish has vanished in favor of several changes in momentum and near falls. So, yeah, there isn't an Arn Anderson out there right now because his role has vanished from everywhere but WWE and if you haven't been IC champion there at least twice, what have you done?

 

I'm not sure that's true... at all. Most indie matches, a majority of the undercard actually, are the exact opposite of a 20-minute "high spots/near falls" match. I think there's too many people here extrapolating a few matches as a way to represent the entire genre these days, it's really not that.

 

Indie undercards and main events function just as they always have, rarely if ever does an undercard match go over 20 minutes and rarely is it a super high-intensity finisher, high spot, near falls/kickout fest. There are a few here and there and Ring of Honor was certainly guilty of it through most of 2004-2007 but it's not common-place. The only 20 minute+ match you'll get usually bleeds into intermission and is followed up by some slower paced, momentum building type matches.

[rovert]

GENERALLY speaking the PWO and DVDR's perception of modern Indy Wrestling seems to begin and end with DaveyRichards.gif .

[Childs]

 

Bryan had only been a main event ace for a couple months before he got injured, but you could take out him and Punk and add Austin Aries, Sami Callihan and Sheamus.

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ...

 

Greg Valentine

Tito Santana

Terry Gordy

Jim Brunzell

Ron Garvin

Paul Orndorff

Ken Patera

Dennis Condrey

Manny Fernandez

Adrian Adonis

 

Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching.

 

 

This is going to end up being pointless, though, because of course if you're combing the territories, with more than 20 years of perspective, you're going to find more good workers. The other side is handicapped by the fact a lot of indie stars are still establishing what they are and how good they might be.

 

Again, I'm not so much interested in arguing that the modern indies are as fertile as the territories. I just think it's wrong to imply they're infertile or not producing a good cross-section of workers.

[Childs]

GENERALLY speaking the PWO and DVDR's perception of modern Indy Wrestling seems to begin and end with DaveyRichards.gif .

 

This isn't helpful either, because it's a huge generalization and untrue. The GOAT nomination thread is already full of guys who made their bones on the recent indy scene.

[NintendoLogic]

For those of you who don't know what rovert is talking about, here's the Davey Richards gif:

 

 

Actually, upon further review, it looks like Eddie Edwards is more at fault there.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

 

Bryan had only been a main event ace for a couple months before he got injured, but you could take out him and Punk and add Austin Aries, Sami Callihan and Sheamus.

Okay great, let's go ten more names then ...

 

Greg Valentine

Tito Santana

Terry Gordy

Jim Brunzell

Ron Garvin

Paul Orndorff

Ken Patera

Dennis Condrey

Manny Fernandez

Adrian Adonis

 

Let's keep going with this till you start feeling like one of us is reaching.

This is going to end up being pointless, though, because of course if you're combing the territories, with more than 20 years of perspective, you're going to find more good workers. The other side is handicapped by the fact a lot of indie stars are still establishing what they are and how good they might be.

 

Again, I'm not so much interested in arguing that the modern indies are as fertile as the territories. I just think it's wrong to imply they're infertile or not producing a good cross-section of workers.

Sure, I have no beef with that and accept that they aren't totally infertile.

 

But this line of argument started with Joe making a much more grandiose claim about there being more exceptional workers now than 20, 30, 40 years ago. This is demonstrably untrue and it's all I wanted to show. I'll admit that the way I put it might have been a bit bigoted, but Joe seems to rile me up more than most.

 

In a bit I have a slightly different avenue to explore for this thread, but need to get back home to make the post.