Shining Wiz Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Finally, as Joe alluded to above, real grappling is boring as shit. Seriously. YouTube "most exciting jiu jitsu match" and see for yourself. That's why pro wrestling is worked in the first place....make it more exciting, not more realistic. First you said worked grappling wasn't realistic enough then you said real grappling is boring as shit. I take that to mean that you don't like worked grappling regardless of how realistic it is. But doesn't that mean you should dislike everything from Verne Gagne vs Thesz through to this Thatcher stuff? Any time anybody works a hold in wrestling they're misapplying it. They may misapply it, but they knew/know how to make it look good. And INTERESTING. The reason pro wrestling is worked is to add drama to what is not the most interesting spectator sport. Bryan's omaplata may not be tearing a shoulder, but I'll be damned if he isn't making it look like he's got it in tight. Anyhow, this conversation has reached its end point I think. Keep enjoying what you enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 This is really a side note on audiences. It pains me, but I generally agree with Joe's point that to most modern fans grappling isn't something that will get over huge on average. But I think that is more because of conditioning and presentation than anything else. If you give guys the right gimmick and they are charismatic or exciting enough any style can and will get over. Similarly if you don't present things as relevant/interesting there will be limits to how much something will get over. The example I always think of here was being in high school and talking about Rey Jr. and other cruisers to classmates and friends who thought they were boring and/or sucked because they weren't pushed at the top of cards or presented as anything other than undercard fodder. The first time I hear something dismissed as flippy bullshit it didn't come from a hardcore internet fan, it came from a sixteen year old peer of mine denouncing the WCW cruiserweight division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Conditioning fans is pretty much the entire point of pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Conditioning fans is pretty much the entire point of pro wrestling. Unfortunately I'm not sure many promoters/bookers understand that today. This isn't a get off my lawn thing either, rather I don't think promoters/bookers at any level are willing to put forth the sort of effort that conditioning requires. If something isn't getting over right away it's quickly abandoned, or instead of conditioning they force something they want upon the viewer without any regard for teaching the viewer to like that thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 The thing is that even when promoters aren't thinking about how they are conditioning fans, they are still conditioning fans to something. Remember how for years people would stand up and look at the entrance waiting for a run-in when the finisher teases started? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Is the 'esta es lucha' chant a new thing? It strikes me as less annoying than the English equivalent as it's more of a cultural pride thing and not an implicit 'fuck John Cena'. There's a good chance that as a cultural tourist I'm completely misreading that though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I don't know if it's possible to condition fans to the extent it was in the past. We live in an era of instant gratification, and I'm not sure fans have the patience to be re-educated. Then again, with the way promotions these days change course at the first sign of a headwind, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think it's a self-fulling prophecy, although I do agree that it's harder. When the day comes that it can't happen anymore because it's impossible, wrestling has no reason to continue existing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think on a small level, something like the Cobra getting over as well as it did, because it was sold to get over, is telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I think on a small level, something like the Cobra getting over as well as it did, because it was sold to get over, is telling. It's telling that pro-wrestling has become a joke, more or less, really. Stuff like Mr. Socko already annoyed me to no end back 15 years ago. These kind of ridiculous comedy spots get over not because fans can be educated but because they are ridiculous comedy spots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 It was over as a legitimate threat at the Royal Rumble that Santino came in second on though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Then it's even sadder than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I don't know if it's possible to condition fans to the extent it was in the past. We live in an era of instant gratification, and I'm not sure fans have the patience to be re-educated. Then again, with the way promotions these days change course at the first sign of a headwind, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd argue that this is entirely untrue and that modern WWE fans are among the "most conditioned" fans ever. Consider: - How every match has to end with a finisher - How every "big match" must end with endless false finishes - How much the WWE fanbase has bought the idea of a "Wrestlemania moment" - How much the WWE fanbase bought into "the Streak" - How much the WWE fanbase has bought into the idea of Shawn Michaels as GOAT - How much the WWE fanbase has bought into the idea of HHH as an all-timer - How much the WWE fanbase has been conditioned to accept the WWE version of wrestling history - How much the average WWE fan develops the mindset of "if it didn't happen in WWE, it might as well have not happened" - How much the WWE fanbase accepts and possibly even expects 20-minute promos delivered solo in the ring - How much the WWE fanbase were actually worked like proper marks during that whole Bryan run before he got injured - How much they've been worked over Cena (I'm convinced they've known what they've been doing there for years now) Don't try to tell me that modern fans aren't conditioned by the product. They are arguably more conditioned than fans have ever been. I think people sometimes forget about that. Shit, listen to some of the podcasts put out on PTBN and which are posted right here on PWO which aren't put out by "PWO guys" and you'll see all of the above and more, and those are fans hardcore enough to have podcasts with actual followings! Let's not delude ourselves that fans aren't conditioned any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilclown Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 If fans think Bryan Danielson was a "subtle" heel in ROH, something I read in this thread, then there's no reason to attempt any actual subtlety. It would be lost completely. Modern fans want their spots, want people to know they are cheering at the right time and demand instant gratification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Couldn't most of those caveats you listed Parv be adjusted to fit the 1980 narrative though? Two examples: Instead of thinking of Michaels as GOAT, they thought of Bruno as a "folk hero". How many WWF Fans bought into the big face champion on top making the shocking results of Ivan in 71, Shiek in 83 and Twin Hebners in 88 more shocking. I do think there is a lack of conditioning now because fans will openly revolt against the product in a very vocal way (I.E. crowd reaction at Rumble this year). This seemed very uncommon in the past to the extent it has happened lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I don't disagree with that Chad, but you can't tell me that WWE fans aren't conditioned. I mean look at Brock beating Taker, you literally have to go back to 1971 and Ivan to find a parallel to that. I do get that the fans are more willing to protest and reject the product -- closer, if you think about it, to late 80s Crockett or WCW crowds (think: Starrcade 87, fans shitting on the Fantastics and Rock n Rolls in the late 80s, "We Want Flair!" etc.), and possibly also old Philly or Baltimore crowds in general (MSG crowds were very well behaved). But I also think that the WWE has been extremely adept at tapping into "smart fan culture" and steering opinion. Let's put it another way: Bruno WAS a folk hero, legit. They didn't really have to sell the fans on that too much. If you watch those shows, Vince isn't putting over Bruno as the big hero all the time because he doesn't really need to, MSG, Philly or anywhere, he was just loved. Whereas the idea of Shawn Michaels as GOAT is just pure marketing, plain and simple. Repeat the lie enough and it becomes a truth -- a well known phenomenon. WWE also do an excellent job of controlling not only history, but also the accepted narrative of history. Look at how the Monday Night Wars are presented. Look at how the careers of certain guys are packaged in a way to foreground their WWE runs. And now think about how your average fan (outside of PWO / DVDR) engages with wrestling history. Shit, just go and listen to the way those guys on the Squared Circle Gazette podcast discuss them ... you won't hear talk of Rick Martel without his Model run being brought up (as just one random example). The agenda, the focus, the entire mindset is conditioned through years of watching WWE product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 But I also think that the WWE has been extremely adept at tapping into "smart fan culture" and steering opinion. Let's put it another way: Bruno WAS a folk hero, legit. They didn't really have to sell the fans on that too much. If you watch those shows, Vince isn't putting over Bruno as the big hero all the time because he doesn't really need to, MSG, Philly or anywhere, he was just loved. Whereas the idea of Shawn Michaels as GOAT is just pure marketing, plain and simple. Repeat the lie enough and it becomes a truth -- a well known phenomenon. Completely disagree with this portion. Bruno was certainly marketed on commentary extremely hard and presented in a way to elevate his status. That takes nothing away from Bruno being able to perform to a high level much like I don't begrudge Hogan but Bruno would be a Dominic Denucci in the average wrestling fan vernacular and fans of that era if it wasn't for his extreme push/marketing at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Hmmmm .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I agree that there is marketing around it, I wasn't saying that there isn't any sort of push there, I'm just saying that Bruno was also legit a folk hero. So the marketing is supporting that, not *creating* it. I don't think Vince goes on and on and on about Bruno as hero on commentary though. Whereas I think HBK as GOAT is like 90% WWE marketing creation, 10% slither of truth (i.e. he did have some good matches). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 To expound on that last point, I think you are overselling the hype around Michaels on an in ring performer. Sure, plenty of times the announcers would talk about him as an ICON and displaying unprecedented athletic feats, but the commentary never got near as smarky as the ROH stuff you hate where they would outright say Shawn was the greatest worker of all time and compare him to contemporaries. I never begrudge Ross on commentary bringing up the great action you can only see in the NWA when watching Steamboat vs. Flair and the WWE when discussing Michaels never went beyond that. I also don't understand whether the streak ending and fans being shocked is being potrayed as a negative or positive. I don't see how it is much conditioning that when something happens with one result for over two decades, that the opposite happening will come as a surprise. That is basic booking 101. As far as the WWE centric history thing, I think that plays into more of a wrestling fans state of mind than a WWE conditioning ploy. The easiest example I can use is Scott and Justin. Neither are casual wrestling fans and will freely admit that WWF/E is their favorite promotion of all time. However, they also have watched Jushin Liger matches and the Japanese matches with the Steiners they considered great. Yet, that doesn't inspire them to seek out and devour Japanese footage of these guys. They are content watching predominately a style and era of wrestling they enjoy. Me, you and others here don't share that sentiment but it is not one where I don't see their side of the argument. Whether WWF/WWE has conditioned them to think that by buying the relevant libraries and having enough archival footage to appease fans of WWF/WWE if they are begrudged with the current product is a separate issue but I do think it is more a choice of the viewer than the mind trap you are presenting it as. The Monday Night War series on the Network has been shafted pretty much universally for WWF/E trying to overreach the true narrative of what happened during that era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 I'm not sure how far we can use Scott and Justin as an example, when they both have over 300 podcasts to their names featuring God knows how many hours of audio talking about and analyzing wrestling, and are plugged into various online communities including this one: if they do count as the sort of fan I'm talking about, they would be the extreme end of an iceberg and in the top 5 percentile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 It is tough in this day and age to classify a casual vs. a hardcore fan because of how much information is available. Is someone that just looks on reddit hardcore? what about following Meltzer on twitter? I just don't think there is as much brainwashing by the WWE from a historical standpoint as sometimes it is lead to believe. We talk about how things get unfairly screwed from other promotions and bring up the example of the Chamber of Horrors on the latest WTBBP. That is one example where it happens. Saying the AWA was boring shit is uninformed and just following old opinions spouted out from decades past. However, we both watched the AWA set and I have watched a crap load of other 80's footage from a variety of promotions worldwide. Of all of that, AWA match quality wise was below the other promotions to me and they didn't have the angles/interviews by design. So therefore if ranking the promotions of the 80's they would finish close to last after watching the stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 Wow this thread has exploded..... I hate the chanting for the sake of chanting that goes on at shows especially the post-Mania shows and the god awful "WE ARE AWESOME" chants that have happened on those shows.....a nuke dropping on the building wouldn't be the worst thing to happen in that situation. When you are going to any sporting event you aren't the show the people you paid to see are the show. As much as I hate dead crowds I'd rather have that than have a bunch of idiots trying to get themselves over. Now if you chant because you are legitimately moved to do so then fine but doing it because you want to be a smartass then get the fuck out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted October 21, 2014 Report Share Posted October 21, 2014 In defense of the "this is awesome" chants (which for the record I despise) - while I think folks are absolutely right about the chant originating from a mentality that focuses on the performance aspects of wrestling rather than trying to get into the show, at this point for most fans isn't it just what they chant? I mean, it's very easy to imagine kids that still think wrestling is real chanting "this is awesome" because that's what they've seen on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted October 22, 2014 Report Share Posted October 22, 2014 "This is awesome" would kill me at the Impact Zone. But when you've got 10,000 people at a WWE show representing a $500,000 gate chanting it? It's not totally my thing, but shoot, tip your cap and take the compliment, money is money no matter how people are consuming the product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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