Jesse Ewiak Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I suspect the Southern indy guys you are referencing, without knowing who they are, are doing derivative imitation old school wrestling like Adam Pearce instead of something that seems contemporary. I'm not advocating that indy workers start complaining about hair pulling and asking for time-outs, and I'm not even really advocating them making wrestling like it used to be. But I would like to see more of a premium on making people like and dislike wrestlers because of their personalities, and that can absolutely be done without sacrificing the level of action or athleticism. I also think it's the role of the wrestler to set the mood of the building, and if it's not to their liking, change it through their actions in the ring. That's the mark of a great worker. Great wrestlers are usually able to dictate the atmosphere instead of having it dictated to them. Predisposition plays a role, but it's not everything by any means. I realize fans won't be jumping the rails to get at the bad guys anytime soon, but I still think fans will boo assholes no matter how good they are in the ring, just like they will be sympathetic to great selling performances. I think this is where you and I disagree. In a lot of PWG-ish type crowd, not singling them out, but they're the ones I think of off the top of my head, if a wrestler came out and acted like an asshole, they'd cheer him ironically, especially he say, pulled the Foley "anti-hardcore" gimmick and only did headlocks and snap mares or something like that. The PWG fans aren't coming out to boo bad guys and cheer good guys, largely. They're coming out for good matches, with little care for who wins and who loses. I'm not saying you can't get booed, but if you're getting booed, it's not for typical wrestling reasons, it's for out of kayfabe reason. I mean, if you don't like it, don't watch it. I'm not saying anybody should. But, by the same token, not every crowd has to be the same way. There can be smarky crowds chanting bullshit, hardcore kid dominated crowds booing the good guys and cheering the good guys, or even a mixture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 Crowds can be however they want. But most of the time, crowds are "good" because the wrestlers are "good". Crowds are "bad" because the wrestlers are "bad". There are always exceptions, but fans are typically responsive to what they get. If they aren't, it's usually because the wrestlers aren't that good at what they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I just heard a PWG crowd completely shit all over a great Gulak/Busick match, they aren't exactly the most welcoming crowd I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I mean, if you don't like it, don't watch it. I'm not saying anybody should. Does this mean I can get special dispensation to ignore the 00s indie scene completely for the purposes of the Greatest Wrestler Ever project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining Wiz Posted October 17, 2014 Report Share Posted October 17, 2014 I just heard a PWG crowd completely shit all over a great Gulak/Busick match, they aren't exactly the most welcoming crowd I don't think. Or.....Gulak/Busick matches aren't enjoyable to watch for most people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 The fans are not dictating how the wrestlers work with their chants. The wrestlers are eliciting those chants from the fans. Just the same as any other era, the wrestlers are the ones diving the reactions, not the other way around. I know some of you like to pretend today's wrestlers don't known how to work, but it sounds to me like you're the ones being worked here. Also, who says fans don't care who wins & loses? And why can't you care about who wins & loses, AND expect/want to be entertained? Of course I'm at the show to be entertained first & foremost, its a fucking work, the wrestlers are in complete control of providing entertaining performances. I'm sorry little old ladies arent sitting in the the front row whacking the heels with a cane. Times change. Fams show emotion differently now, that's all. Its not a negative reflection on the workers or the fans. Adapt or die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Also, crowds can chant AND boo/cheer. And always do. It isn't one or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I just heard a PWG crowd completely shit all over a great Gulak/Busick match, they aren't exactly the most welcoming crowd I don't think.Well, obviously they didn't think it was great. Thatcher got booed at CZW, too. That style is a hard sell, especially at a PWG show. Reminds me of Big Show vs Batista at Hammerstein on WWECW. The infamous "change the channel" chants, with loud booing throughout. Made for great TV, especially with rattled Batista completely lost with no clue how to handle the reaction, so he just kept doing his scripted baby face routine and bombed so badly Vince vowed never to go back (and hasn't). Far cry from his great reactions when crowds turned on him this year, but the point here is crowd chants turned a shitty Big Show vs Batista match that nobody cared about or wanted on an ECW show in an old ECW building into something perversely entertaining. Not saying that's what happened at PWG, one just reminded me of the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Disappointed to hear that PWG fans were down on that match. They usually take to new guys fairly well. Planning on watching BOLA this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Without having seen the match Bill is talking about, I remember the PWG crowd really getting into Danielson/Low-Ki in 2008, which I think is a very underrated, mat-based match. Is Gulak/Thatcher/Busick-style matwork a different type of matwork than Danielson and Ki were doing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 People are more ironic and irritating than in 2008? Five years is a long time. There's five years between 85 and 90. Look how wrestling changed then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I am just asking a question about the difference in their styles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Without having seen the match Bill is talking about, I remember the PWG crowd really getting into Danielson/Low-Ki in 2008, which I think is a very underrated, mat-based match. Is Gulak/Thatcher/Busick-style matwork a different type of matwork than Danielson and Ki were doing? I think so, as the Thatcher/Gulak/Busick style is almost bereft of traditionally big spots. It's more of a grind em down style, with heavy emphasis on working over limbs, long term damage, and rough exchanges that hide the smoothness that is actually taking place. Anyways, my point wasn't that a PWG crowd has to like a match like Gulak/Busick. Rather, I was simply countering the idea that PWG crowds are great and open to anything. I love PWG, but PWG fans have a very specific style of wrestling they like and if you don't present that style they aren't very open to you. So more of a comment on PWG crowds than the actual match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I can't even begin to stress how much I hate the early 1999 WWF crowds. There are self-serving signs up the wahoo, just people dying to get on TV and to make it all about themselves. It was the height of the frat boy audience era and it's just brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I remember going to Nitros live where the ring announcer would hype up the crowd by telling them they could be on TV. We could probably trace a lot of this back to the time when promoters stopped dimming the house lights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I always did kind of love the Canadian crowd though, and at this stage I'd much rather watch the Raw after Wrestlemania than Wrestlemania itself, so I'm probably a hypocrite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 When did Gulak and Busick work each other in PWG? It looks like they were both in the BOLA but not against each other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 When did Gulak and Busick work each other in PWG? It looks like they were both in the BOLA but not against each other Tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 PWG fans wildly cheered the worst match I"ve ever seen, so I couldn't possibly care less about what the couple hundred flip fetishists that line the walls of that facility think about anything. /off my lawn rant over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Just wanted to say the stand off before the opening bell of Shield/Wyatts is the best This is Awesome chant ever. It's contextually different than all the other ones. The fans were legitimately excited at max levels to finally see the two teams square off. The feud as presented didn't cause for the crowd to strongly root for one team over the other in any sort of obvious fashion. These are two tweener at best teams, where even the build up was centered around finally getting to see these two teams do crazy stuff to each. I can imagine a rigid face/heel dynamic sort of crowd leading to some tepid responses before and during what was an admittedly, awesome match. I'm glad the crowd went the way they did rather than whatever vision of crowd responses some of you think they should have 99% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Ewiak Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I am just asking a question about the difference in their styles. Most likely, Danielson and Low-Ki were known quantities. Gulak and Busick aren't. Most people who are fans of any kind of entertainment give creators they like more rope than people they have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Actually I've called 1980 MSG crowds "idiots" on many occasions. I have no problem criticizing crowds from different eras. None at all. Yeah, because how dare people not appreciate what you do and then have the audacity to enjoy what you dislike. At an event that's entire purpose is to engage the crowd. And a "proper" wrestling audience. What the fuck? So are you proposing that crowds should all become amateur thespians and behave "properly"? Do crowds all get together and agree to be rasslin' fans like it was a backstage opening night hug at the local production of "Carousel" ? Parv at the matches. "IF YOO CHEER FOR STRONGBOW, YOO DON'T GET YOOR PUDDIN'!!" Love, ya, boobie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I am just asking a question about the difference in their styles. Most likely, Danielson and Low-Ki were known quantities. Gulak and Busick aren't. Most people who are fans of any kind of entertainment give creators they like more rope than people they have no idea. This, basically. And wrestlers most definitely work in stuff where they think they're going to get a This Is Awesome chant. Guys who work to that aren't doing it right. That's not organic. That's reactionary to the point where it's like a Pavlovian reflex. I understand the idea that Joe's presenting, but there's a big difference between a couple of guys doing something organic that elicits that type of reaction and a couple of guys working through spots for the hand clapping or This Is Awesome chant in response. You don't work for that response like it's a spot in the match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Well, obviously they didn't think it was great. Thatcher got booed at CZW, too. That style is a hard sell, especially at a PWG show. The BOLA reaction was an anti-CZW thing. The past page and a bit are biased people criticising other people for being biased. Fact of the matter is Thatcher isn't the most charismatic wrestler in the World and you can't control a crowd (with reason) you are a poor professional. If the promotion and person were different people would be talking about how he was EXPOSED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 It was night 2 of BOLA when Busick/Gulak took on ReDRagon. Some of the fans started a CZW chant during the ring introductions, and the rest of the crowd booed the shit out of it. I thought Busick was reasonably well liked during his night 1 appearance, and got invited back for the show that took place last night where he wrestled Ciampa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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