Different styles of the NWA touring champ

[shoe]

That's a tough one. With Race everyone in the building knew Race just escaped by the skin of his teeth after an ass kicking. With Brisco he was so good at selling and making the opponent look good he would suck the audience in. Look at the 1st fall of the Jumbo match. Jack controlled early, but then Jumbo dominated the fall and part of the story was that Jumbo looks like he has Jack's number but got unlucky. i think Race was more effective because the crowd understood what happened. With Brisco we as hardcore fans pick up the nuances . I'm not sure crowds in the 70's picked up on them.

[JerryvonKramer]

In his book, Terry Funk claims that Lou Thesz didn't always work to make his opponents look good and was often in it for himself. Seems to run contrary to the notion that some people have pushed that he was a stooging champ.

 

He also goes into how he worked differently as champ from his brother. Shorter matches. Make babyface look as good as humanly possible.

[Tim Cooke]

The footage we have from Thesz shows some stooging champion work. Doesn't mean he didn't work like Funk says he did some of the time nor does it mean that he was a bigger stooge than someone like Race or Flair.

 

But relying on any wrestlers memories for detailed information (such as how Thesz worked on a consistent basis) is a slippery slope.

[JerryvonKramer]

The footage we have from Thesz shows some stooging champion work. Doesn't mean he didn't work like Funk says he did some of the time nor does it mean that he was a bigger stooge than someone like Race or Flair.

 

But relying on any wrestlers memories for detailed information (such as how Thesz worked on a consistent basis) is a slippery slope.

The footage I saw, he begs off a bit, but is hardly bumping around the ring or letting his opponent guzzle him. Was a very good subtle heel.

 

Reason I mentioned this though was that Funk took special time out to criticise Thesz for it. He said that certain guys he did that to lost their aura and were never the same as draws again and that it was bad for business ultimately. That the champ has to get the local challenger over, not himself.

 

Ricky Romero is one guy he mentions who Thesz kinda killed. One of a few examples.

[alexoblivion]

For what it's worth, Dory seems to hold a higher opinion of Thesz. Seems like the word on Thesz as well is that if he deemed a wrestler to be too gimmicky, he would go out of his way to make them look bad. Any chance Funk mentions when the Romero/Thesz match took place?

[JerryvonKramer]

Here's the quotation in full:

 

Fritz said, “By God, I didn’t want it to come down to this, but I’m gonna vote for Terry.” And that decision really caused that guy a lot of heat, too, because Fritz was the only one whose vote was public. All the rest voted their own way with secret ballots. I was grateful to Fritz, because I knew this was a great opportunity. I also knew it was now my job to make stars in each territory I visited. For anyone, including myself, who would seriously say to another boy in this business, “I am the world champion,” I would think, “Are you out of your goddamned mind? They made you the world champion!”

 

The guys, the other wrestlers, make someone the world champion, and the world champion exists to make the guys seem like world-beaters. Gene Kiniski was good about that, but Lou Thesz wasn’t. I have great admiration for Lou, who held the title through most of the 1950s, and for a few years before and after that decade. But he was a very self-centered champion, one who didn’t take into consideration the time and effort that some of his challengers and the other guys on those cards had put into making certain guys the top stars of the areas. If he didn’t like someone, or didn’t think they should be in there, he’d chill them in the ring, which he was certainly capable of doing, because he had legitimate skills. He wrestled Baron Michele Leone in California in 1952. Now Leone wasn’t a legitimate wrestler, but by God he could draw some unbelievable houses. Lou ate him alive, and Leone never was the same again as an attraction.

 

He did the same thing to Bull Curry in Houston, and to my friend Ricky Romero in El Paso. That was one thing I never have understood. He wasn’t helping the territories he visited, and that was the champion’s main job. To me, that meant that as great a wrestler he was, Lou was not a great champion.

 

One of my biggest gripes about the wrestling business has always been when a guy would stiff another guy in the ring, not giving them anything and making them look bad, and the other guy didn’t even realize it until it was too late. What does that prove? It just sours the other guy, and it’s a horrible way to treat a guy. Promoters would sometimes tell a guy to stiff his opponent, telling them something like, “Don’t give that guy much in the ring.” Well, what the hell kind of fair deal is that? Why not just tell me if we have a problem? Even if the other guy said beforehand, “I’m going to try to kick your ass,” that was fine with me. But don’t stiff me in a work. That is bullshit.

 

Baba did that to me once, in October 1986, when Riki Choshu came to All Japan. I felt that Choshu was just off. I was trying to perform and do my best for the match, but I was being shortchanged and didn’t even know it. You do the best you can, but if you’re in a situation like that, nothing you do looks good. When I was champion, I usually got to come up with my own scenarios, and it was always important to me to leave a place at least as strong as it was when I got there. My question to the promoters was always, “OK, what do we need to do to draw a buck?”

[goc]

I don't think that quote disproves the idea that Thesz COULD work as a stooging champ. Just that he would bury guys he didn't like or thought were guys he should be wrestling.

[alexoblivion]

I wonder how accurate Funk’s assessment of Thesz killing Leone’s drawing potential is. In Steve Yohe’s L.A. HOF list on the Wrestling Classics board, he wrote that while the first match between the two drew the largest gate in wrestling history at the time, and credits Leone as being a major factor, that the “blow off hurt the area”. However, he also speculates that too much TV and Leon leaving the area for a tour may have been a factor as well. Recently watched Thesz’s title defense from 55 against Don Leo Jonathan, and while I like the match, I didn’t really think Thesz went out of his way to make Jonathan look like a credible challenger past the first 8 minutes or so.

[JerryvonKramer]

As I said earlier in the thread, Dory Jr didn't work in a way that necessarily made his opponents look super-strong either. He didn't stooge or bump that much. I don't think that's what Dory was going for, he was going for making the NWA and the title and wrestling in general feel more legit. I am fairly sure that's what Lou Thesz was doing too.

 

In the much-cited Verne match where he's playing the subtle heel -- which we reviewed in some detail on a Titans Xtra once -- Verne comes off as a credible challenger to a credible champion who outfoxes him in the end.

 

This is a very different narrative and philosophy from the one Funk is outlining in his book. I haven't seen enough of Gene Kiniski to know if he was a stooging champ, but from what Funk says, it sounds like he worked in that way. If he did, then the style originated with him. I'm not buying the "Thesz-as-bitch" line pushed by some people. Not only doesn't it work in terms of what everyone from the era and Thesz himself have said, it also doesn't work with the footage we have. He just didn't work that style. Dory didn't work that style either, he worked from on top most of the time. That also doesn't necessarily mean that Dory or Thesz didn't make guys look strong -- if you work a 60-minute broadway with the champion, you have to be a good wrestler right? That's Thesz's way of making Verne look strong, not the TINY little bit of stooging he does at the 40+ minute mark.

 

Brisco, Terry Funk, Race, and Flair all to varying degrees worked that style. And certain very old-school guys even criticised them for making the champion seem too weak.

 

I don't get why anyone is wanting to push this idea that all the champions worked the same way, when the evidence is to the contrary.

[JerryvonKramer]

During Funk's book he had quite a few occasions when he strongly disagreed with something that Flair said in his book. So after finishing it, I thought I'd check out that old RF "Face Off" shoot the two of them did together, because I thought it might be interesting to see how they might disagree on things.

 

They weren't in the sort of mood to disagree with each other and were uber-respectful, but there was an interesting part where the topic came round to how they worked as NWA champions.

 

Flair comes right out and says that he didn't have a lot of offensive tools (he lists chop, knee drop, vertical suplex; Terry mutters that it is bullshit blowing smoke up his ass), but that him, Terry and Race were all "bump and feed" type workers. He then says that guys like Bret Hart and Bob Orton Jr didn't do a lot of bumps but had a lot of offensive tools. Flair goes on to say that he never liked working babyface because not only didn't he have a lot of offensive moves to do in his comebacks, but also guys weren't always great at feeding him.

 

I just thought it was pretty interesting especially in light of what has been discussed in this thread.

 

Shortly after this, they get on to Dory. Earlier in the interview, Flair mentions that he really didn't like Johnny Valentine's work because "he'd sit on a guy" and wouldn't run the ropes. This is Flair essentially saying that he didn't like a mat-based style and prefers motion and action. More or less, what I've said in this thread. When Terry puts over Dory as champ, Flair comes in with "but Dory was a grinder though, like Johnny Valentine". Flair talks about how Dory would lean on you. And then that he figured out that he could get Dory to work slams and headlock takeovers so he did that -- essentially Flair saying or admitting that he can't stand to work an old 60s-style mat-based match and so found a work around with Dory where there could be more high spots and motion. Then he says "me and Terry had no ground game, we were off our feet". Terry agrees, but then adds in that who is to say who is right when those guys (Dory and Valentine) drew more money than either of them ever drew. Then he takes us back to 1900 and goes for more of an evolutionary long view.

 

I thought this was pretty interesting to hear these two guys discuss psychology and working styles like this. Pete, if you haven't, definitely one for you to check out!

 

EDIT: A good 20 or so minutes later, Funk has a little pop at Lou Thesz but doesn't name him. He just refers to "previous champions who used to gobble people up", but it's clear (after just reading the book) that it's Thesz he's talking about. This is during a part where Funk is eulogizing jobbers, which is something he also does in the book.

[MoS]

^^ This is slightly off-topic, but did Dory draw more money than Terry and Flair? I had always kind of assumed that Flair was the biggest-drawing NWA World Champion of all time. How good was Dory as a draw?

[JerryvonKramer]

I know Dory vs Jack Brisco was a massive drawing feud everywhere. But the historians would have to answer this one.

[Strand Peanut]

I think just the nature of the business during Dory's championship days, he probably did draw more money. Four straight years as champ to boot.

 

Adjusted for inflation, naturally.

[Strand Peanut]

Also, I'm surprised Terry thinks Thesz guzzled people at the detriment to the business.

 

Did Terry's style as champ do more for the business ? Hardly.

 

I tend to agree philosophically with Terry Funk. But I think he's mis stepping on this. Or rather his idea of the champion's function in the NWA is not necessarily more correct than Thesz's.

 

But Terry is a promoter's son, and I think it's always colored his viewpoint on the business. It's part of what makes him such a unique guy.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've just heard Dave Meltzer say something similar to Terry about Lou as champ. He does say that in the 50s they must have thought it was the right thing for the business otherwise they wouldn't have kept him as champ as long as they did, but because Lou would guzzle challengers, he wasn't very popular with the boys. He had respect, but he wasn't well liked.

[Loss]

 

The idea of the 'World Champion' getting his ass kicked in every match only for his opponent to slip on a banana peel and lose is just absurd to me. Yeah, you want the local star to look good, but, shit, you're the WORLD CHAMP, shouldn't you look like one? I'd much rather have the fans think "wow, I'm proud of our guy, he came so close but hey, that's the champ" as opposed to "OUR GUY THAT SCREWED! THAT GUY DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE A CHAMP!"

 

The thing is that the champ's defense against the local star was all that those fans were going to see. As far as they were concerned the champ was dominating competition everywhere else and their guy was the ONE he couldn't beat fairly. So you can't factor in the idea that the champion was getting his ass kicked in every match. Your Mayweather analogy actually works in favor of this method because in the fans' eyes that's probably what the NWA champ was 99% of the time and their local hero was the one guy who had his number.

 

 

This is spot on. Yes, if you are privy to all the results and match footage, as we are now, the NWA champ formula of coming so close to losing the title and being saved by luck has plenty of holes. It wouldn't work now. But then, as far as most of the locals knew, their guy was the only one who could push the champion to the limit. That they were repeating that night after night in different territories is not in any way a reflection on the champ as a worker. The NWA World Champ was basically a prop.

 

If you don't like the formula, that's fine, but even then, the issue is structural.

[Strand Peanut]

It was the right thing for their business.. Keeping Lou on top.

 

Buddy was the only guy worth changing their minds. If Lou guzzled guys, which I don't fully believe, it was worth it.

 

How many towns/territories did Lou hurt as NWA champ ? The USA loves dominant champs.