Should New Japan be creating their next generation of new talent?

[Ship Canal]

Posted Today, 10:59 PM

Hi all,

Apologies, I'm new to posting on the board and I accidentally posted this over in the Greatest Wrestler Ever section but couldn't work out how to delete my own posts. I'm guessing mods have to do it? If so, sorry for giving you extra work!

Anyway, sorry to crosspost this from the Definitive Puroresu Facebook group but I'm guessing not everyone here is on that and I wanted to get the take of those more knowledgeable than me on this.

So in discussing a recent piece in the Observer about NJPW World, their new network type thing, the point was made that they can't hope to expand business until they create their next generation of talent.

I've seen a few people on this board mention that too, or that they think the roster is a little stale. While I think there is some truth to the stale thing, I'm not sure I understand why they need to make the new generation of stars right now in particular. I'm no expert on how the schedule of a New Japan worker might affect the need to create new stars, but I'm guessing that could be one thing? I'm also useless with understanding the significance of drawing in relation to Japan a lot of the time so I'd be interested to hear others thoughts. This was my input on the Facebook post:

"I was gonna say, I've heard a few people say stuff like the New Japan roster is stale or that they need to bring up younger guys and make new stars... but I'd say they are set pretty well for a good while, obviously injuries aside - and that's being quite presumptuous, considering the style some of them work - but aren't guys like Omega and Kushida in the juniors a fair few years away from their potential primes?

Someone like Shibata is hardly a rookie but he could play a major role in heavyweight main event programs and storylines for a while yet. Same with Ibushi. They've got the two young lions, is it Sho Tanaka and Yohei Kamatsu? They've looked great for their age whenever I've seen them.

I'm not making value judgements on how much I like or dislike those guys as workers, but maybe add in a few more young lions and those guys with some of the older guys could probably last you another decade."

 

[funkdoc]

well, if one of your main-eventers works a very physically punishing style, you really want to have a "secondary ace" ready when needed. one of the major criticisms of 90s AJPW was that they didn't see this with misawa, and didn't do enough to elevate kawada & kobashi or develop new talent. i'm not sure how dangerous today's "stiff" NJPW matches are compared to that, though.

 

my feeling is that they definitely need someone new to reach the tanahashi/okada level, but it seems like they're grooming shibata for that spot as we speak so i wouldn't worry too much yet.

[Ship Canal]

Yeah I had similar thoughts r.e Shibata, although I know some people feel they should have pulled the trigger on him as a main eventer already.

Where would Nakamura figure into this for you then? He's clearly the number three guy in the company... can they do more to elevate him?

[Coffey]

Shibata (35) & Ishii (38) could both be moved up. Nakamura (34) is REAL close too. They're definitely not young anymore. Okada is only 27. Naito (32) looked to be on his way before he got hurt & I think they got cold feet about it. Of course, Minoru Suzuki is 46 & he can still go, so age doesn't always mean too much anyway.

 

A couple new, young fresh faces that started building up their résumés certainly wouldn't hurt. They can't just keep running Tanahashi Vs. Okada.

[Ship Canal]

That's why I thought they wasted Nakamura vs Okada as the G1 Final. I honestly think that could have drawn big at the Dome show with the right booking.

[pol]

I think at this point Nakamura may be the #3 star in terms of presentation but he's the #1 or #2 in terms of actual drawing power. He's the most searched for on NJPW World, for whatever that's worth.

 

Okada is still probably not quite there yet as a draw. He's been able draw well in mid-sized venues vs. upper midcarders like Goto and Makabe, but flopped this year when asked to main event a large building against a then relatively unknown quantity in AJ Styles. The true test of him will be when he's asked to main event a Dome opposite someone not called Tanahashi or Nakamura. They should (and obviously will, since he's Gedo's boy) keep trying with him becaues he's already 75% of the way there.

 

I agree that the future doesn't look so rosy for them talent-wise. Ibushi and Shibata are the obvious young guys who can main event (Shibata isn't really young but his body isn't wrecked from years of working the NJPW style). But that's just two guys and you can't assume everyone you try to push to the next level is going to stick with the fans, or draw. The NJPW dojo guys are more junior-sized, though of course there's ways of changing that. With Devitt gone and Ibushi now a heavyweight it's hard for me to see any of the juniors as potential main event guys - even someone like KUSHIDA, who I thought was one of the best workers in the world this year, just doesn't have the charisma, the look or the size to main event.

 

I don't know what's going on with the Dojo but apparently the last batch of trainees all left? Given Kidani's obsession with doing whatever Vince does to the point of aping a money-losing over-the-top video venture, you'd think they'd try to establish something like an NXT or OVW to build their future.

[Zoo Enthusiast]

They should always be working toward creating more main eventers. It's not like you can have too many stars. If they are looking at their roster and saying they are set for a decade, they are idiots.

[rzombie1988]

You should ALWAYS be working on your next generation of talent. All Japan Women's did for a long time and did quite well with it. NJPW seems to be more interested in taking other companies talent at the moment though. They haven't really had any big recruiting classes since the early 2000's with Nagao and crew.

 

It has to be hard to recruit new wrestlers though in Japan. You have to go out of your way to see wrestling on TV(by buying the right channels or staying up til 1AM for NJPW's TV show) and wrestling isn't popular with everyone preferring baseball or soccer. The training is brutal and the average Japanese person doesn't exactly look like a wrestler. It's also not a good long-term job, there's no real security and you have to hustle.

 

Japan also has an interesting problem with recruiting due to their racism. Basically, all non-Japanese are treated as second class people and looked down upon. Japan looks at all of its foreigners as the same whether they are from USA or Norway. It's a big problem because they likely could find better recruits worldwide but they really don't want or need any more foreigners, they need more Japanese. Even AJ Styles and Devitt have gotten lumped in with the foreigner gang, when they could be successful without it.

 

I do think NJPW is on their way to being stale. We've seen just about every combination multiple times over the last few years, minus Naito. All of their top guys are in their mid-30's minus Okada and Ibushi and Tanahashi are really banged up.

[W2BTD]

The last batch of young lions was Mikami (El Desperado), Watanabe, & Takahahi. Watanabe & Takahashi are currently on excursion. Watanabe is the U.S. and might be coming back in January. Takahashi is doing another year in CMLL after about six months in Europe & 6 months in CMLL this year. Watanabe was told to gain weight & learn English. I've seen him work live several times on this excursion and he is the goods. Not sure about becoming a star, tough to say, but he's going to be a good worker and has developed a decent look. He'll be a heavyweight.

 

The two current young lions Sho Tanaka & Yohei Komatsu are the two most impressive young lions in many, many years. In my opinion, they are the two best workers at this stage of the game since Muto & Chono. They already have a connection with the crowd, which really speaks to their charisma, because it is very, very hard for young lions to do so. These are the two to watch. I think they have more star potential than the last batch. They are on the small side, but could probably fill out as smaller heavies. They have tons of matches on tape if anybody wants to check them out.

 

Word is there is another batch coming in from the open tryouts they recently held. Whoever they sign would join Scott Hall's kid in the dojo.

 

As for the current roster, I wouldn't worry about Okada's drawing power. He has a Sumo Hall sellout under his belt already (vs Ibushi for DDT), and the Back to Yokohama to me can be chalked up to putting too much faith in Styles at that point as a main eventer. The Japanese audience really didn't start reacting to Styles as a star until G1.

 

People seem to view Nakamura as a #3, but that's really not he case. He was their top draw this year in terms of number of sellouts & total big show main events. If you really pay attention to how they promote, the IC title is nearly on par with the IWGP, and Nakamura is sort of teflon in that he decisively lost a feud to Tanahashi & a huge match to Okada, but loses no star or drawing power. I'm not sure you could beat Tanahashi or Okada like that and get the same results. At worst they have a 1a, 1b, 1c. It's hard to call any of those guys #3 with the way they do things.

[Shining Wiz]

I'm by no mean an expert on young lions, but Tanaka and Komatsu are good. Their opener on the ppv this weekend was a really good match, and both guys have charisma to burn.

 

Add in that the Okada is in his mid 20's, they're trying to make something big of Ibushi, KUSHIDA has some potential, and, since it's not uncommon for Japanese stars to have some pretty impressive sustained runs well into thier 40s, you've got another 5-10 years of Tanahashi, Nakamura, Goto, Ishii, etc....

 

Throw in the potential that Watanabe and/or Takahashi turn out well, and they actually appear to be in really good shape.

[JaymeFuture]

I don't see it with Takahashi myself, he's just missing that fire all the special guys have. They seemed to have missed the window on Goto and Naito, and to an extent Shibata too. Ishii is a candidate but they need to act on him now. Komatsu has something that really draws emotion out of the crowd, which in time could develop into something great, though.

[kjh]

I wouldn't bank on Ishii being around for the long haul. He's well on the way to his shoulder being seriously messed up and having to take over a year out.

[dawho5]

Those Japanese stars who went into their 40s and 50s were from before Japanese wrestling became so physically demanding. Look at how beat up Misawa and crew got in the 90s and the effects in the 2000s. They were all still going in the late 2000s, but as shells of their former selves. Compare that to Tenryu and Sasaki from the generation of stars before who were still going relatively strong while those guys were fading. It's a different landscape now.

[WingedEagle]

I've become a really big fan of Kushida the past few months with how he's mixed in mat work and selling while actually building to his flying spots. Not the most graceful flyer, but he doesn't generally overdo it. Curious if he's been pigeonholed as a Jr. HW or if there's potential for him to see a promotion?

 

Also, and this may belong in the other thread but what exactly is New Japan's vehicle for reaching the audience? They've got the monthly PPVs which I and many others here watch regularly. I know they don't have anything along the lines of a flagship show like Raw in a solid time slot, but what is the extent of their TV or other promotion to the existing base and new fans? What do they rely on to drive PPV sales?

[Shining Wiz]

Those Japanese stars who went into their 40s and 50s were from before Japanese wrestling became so physically demanding. Look at how beat up Misawa and crew got in the 90s and the effects in the 2000s. They were all still going in the late 2000s, but as shells of their former selves. Compare that to Tenryu and Sasaki from the generation of stars before who were still going relatively strong while those guys were fading. It's a different landscape now.

 

I'd say Tanahashi and Nakamura are working styles not remotely like Misawa et al.

 

Also, I'd point out that Sasaki (I'm assuming you mean Kensuke?) would be a contemporary of Misawa and Kobashi, and Tenryu's best run was at the same time they were getting going.

[dawho5]

Actually, yeah, Sasaki did come along right around that time. Either way, he held up far better than the All Japan guys did. And Tenryu had a pretty solid run into the 2000s, going strong past the point that Misawa and co. had started breaking down. Probably has something to do with him working a less dangerous and physically demanding style early in his career. And it's not so much the style Tanahashi or Nakamura works, but the style their opponents tend to favor. Taking all the punishment they do adds up over time. I'd say the lack of unnecessarily dangerous head drops has to help their chances of longevity. Even so, taking that many concussive shots has to add up. Plus Tanahashi has bad knees due to all of the high flying stuff. It's sort of similar to the Chris Benoit situation for me. Wrestlers (especially in japan nowadays) are very likely to do lasting damage to themselves in order to put on "better matches". It's something that I think will eventually be addressed in a similar manner to how the NFL did after all those retired players started having problems. Probably not anytime soon, but I think it will happen at some point.

[rzombie1988]

I wouldn't bank on Ishii being around for the long haul. He's well on the way to his shoulder being seriously messed up and having to take over a year out.

Ishii's old too at age 38. Realistically, he only has 5-7 years left. His next injury is likely the big one.

 

A bunch of comments here:

 

Tanahashi and Nakamura haven't taken half the abuse Kawada and Misawa did. Shoot, they'd do germans as opening spots near the end there. Tanahashi's gonna have a bad time with his knees, but I can't recall a ton of Nakamura injuries and he works pretty safe.

 

I do like the two dojo boys they debuted this year but they are both a bit small. I like Desperado/Namajague, but they blew it by putting him with the juniors.

 

I don't see anything with Kushida at all. He's like a bad Tajiri spot machine.

 

Tenryu's a special case and shouldn't really be brought up. I can't really think of any other older guys, maybe minus Baba, who lasted that long at a main event level in Japan.

 

I don't think NJPW missed the boat with Shibata as much as Shibata missed the boat with Shibata. Shibata jumped to Big Mouth Loud and did jack for 6-8 years. I will never be able to make sense of why he left.

[akira maeda]

I can't really think of any other older guys, maybe minus Baba, who lasted that long at a main event level in Japan.

 

 

I don't really know if it's fair to say that Baba lasted long, he was in comedy tag matches for a good part of his career. I think Choshu lasted a pretty long time. He was very good in the mid 90s but you could see he was starting to break down.

[rzombie1988]

 

I can't really think of any other older guys, maybe minus Baba, who lasted that long at a main event level in Japan.

 

 

I don't really know if it's fair to say that Baba lasted long, he was in comedy tag matches for a good part of his career. I think Choshu lasted a pretty long time. He was very good in the mid 90s but you could see he was starting to break down.

 

Baba had a 24 year run...with another 14 as a comedy/part-time guy.

[akira maeda]

That's pretty crazy, had no idea he was on top for 24 years as a serious wrestler.

[El McKell]

Also, and this may belong in the other thread but what exactly is New Japan's vehicle for reaching the audience? They've got the monthly PPVs which I and many others here watch regularly. I know they don't have anything along the lines of a flagship show like Raw in a solid time slot, but what is the extent of their TV or other promotion to the existing base and new fans? What do they rely on to drive PPV sales?

As far as I know they have a weekly TV show that airs late at night on a major network, which shows big matches from big events weeks after they happened and also some smaller events (korakuen hall shows etc) are broadcast live on smaller networks like Samurai TV