tim Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 I think NJPW booking is wrongly credited with being consistently great because they did one particular thing incredibly well, Okada's push. They created a legit main event draw literally out of nowhere in a short period of time. I don't think anyone can deny that doing that is incredibly impressive. Outside of that I've been very underwhelmed with a lot of NJPW booking especially in 2014. The crowds are beyond into Honma and they do nothing with him. I know he has that scandal associated with him but they're still obviously willing to use him. If you're gonna use someone, maximize their value. They made him this always losing underdog, fine enough if you're going to do something with it, but then they don't pull the trigger at the G1, don't give him a big feud, and let him pick up a pin in a throw away tag here. Ishii didn't even have a match in the Dome show last year. If people who praise NJPW booking were REALLY as invested in it as they are in WWE booking they would have thrown a fit. If WWE did something similar to that there'd be a meltdown. Naito's push was a huge failure, which in a lot of ways highlights how impressive Okada's push was. The overpushed Bullet Club this year totally blew, they bombed a big show thanks to lack of interest in that angle and it made a lot of the cards monotonous and uninteresting throughout the year even if the wrestling was good. Sakuraba has been put in really lame programs outside the latest one with Suzuki -- however much you don't like Sakuraba in the ring it's hard to deny that there has to be a big opportunity to having a legit MMA legend in NJPW that isn't being taken advantage of. NJPW booking has been doing a lot of things poorly and getting a bunch of credit for the couple good things they've been doing, even if those couple good things have been outstanding. NJPW could and should be a lot more interesting and exciting from a booking perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 So, I thought this show was great but still feel somehow lower than most despite me throwing out a lot of snowflakes. Dylan doesn't like Tanahashi vs. OKada as a series but both OhtaniJacket and myself have point to matches in the series we really like. Shoe has been a proponent of New Japan last month of so. I think the problem still lies in the middle matches that some reviews just seemingly have to justify is good. I will use Voice as Wrestling as they are consistently the best source of New Japan coverage. I fail to see where Makabe vs. Ishii was **** or OMega vs. Taguchi being considered good at ***1/4. This is where my disconnect comes with New Japan to an extent, most of the great matches that are MOTYC, I agree with. It is that middle portion where other reviewers (Joe Lanza, Jason Felix, Bryan Rose) have multiple matches at **** or hovering around and I am around the *** mark. That still classifies a good match but I think giving those huge ratings to every show is extreme and generous at times. It's similar to All Japan Women where every match on the interpromotional cards was four stars or better. I doubt anyone will believe New Japan had such stacked cards in twenty years time. Still, given what spudz25 said the other day about the extent to which Meltzer marks out while watching wrestling, I kind of dig big Dave getting caught up in the heat of the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 I like the booking for the most part. No way in hell could they survive running weekly tv. With that said. I like how they present wrestling. They make wins and losses mean something. The Titles are important. Previous matches mean things in the grand scale. Their is a pecking order. Though a lot of the cards are repetitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Also card placement is really well done in NJPW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Given the 36k number, is there anything NJPW can really do to get the kind of attendance numbers people were projecting? You're not getting a sellout out of a hardcore fan base. If 36k paid is true that's a good number, Nobody should have believed the 50k+ predictions just like they shouldn't believe that Akiyama ever drew that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 What is the real story with the papered numbers anyway? Was there any period where Dome shows were legit drawing 50k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been doing a lot of things poorly and getting a bunch of credit for the couple good things they've been doing, even if those couple good things have been outstanding. NJPW could and should be a lot more interesting and exciting from a booking perspective. This is true of just about every promotion there's ever been, which leads me to believe that it's not a coincidence and that promoters learnt from experience it was better to stack the top of the card and fill out the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 What is the real story with the papered numbers anyway? Was there any period where Dome shows were legit drawing 50k? During the first ten years of Dome Shows there were legit sell outs, but there was also some rumoured papering like Big Egg Universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been comically overrated for some time now. Don't get me wrong. They are a company on the rise in many ways, you can't say they have done a poor job at all. But they do not have real depth at the top of the card and that is the fault of the booking. That said they also have a promotional model that makes it far easier to get by with three guys clearly a peg above everyone else. If they had seven or eight hours of weekly television to fill no way in hell they could get away with that. How is the weekly (is it weekly even?) TV anyway? I hear a lot about big shows, but not much about week-to-week in smaller venues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been doing a lot of things poorly and getting a bunch of credit for the couple good things they've been doing, even if those couple good things have been outstanding. NJPW could and should be a lot more interesting and exciting from a booking perspective. This is true of just about every promotion there's ever been, which leads me to believe that it's not a coincidence and that promoters learnt from experience it was better to stack the top of the card and fill out the rest. Wasn't the early 80s peak of New Japan the product of Inoki, Tiger Mask and Choshu-Fujinami all peaking at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been doing a lot of things poorly and getting a bunch of credit for the couple good things they've been doing, even if those couple good things have been outstanding. NJPW could and should be a lot more interesting and exciting from a booking perspective. This is true of just about every promotion there's ever been, which leads me to believe that it's not a coincidence and that promoters learnt from experience it was better to stack the top of the card and fill out the rest. Wasn't the early 80s peak of New Japan the product of Inoki, Tiger Mask and Choshu-Fujinami all peaking at the same time? And a great Friday night TV spot... but Tiger Mask matches were third from the top so it was still top heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been comically overrated for some time now. Don't get me wrong. They are a company on the rise in many ways, you can't say they have done a poor job at all. But they do not have real depth at the top of the card and that is the fault of the booking. That said they also have a promotional model that makes it far easier to get by with three guys clearly a peg above everyone else. If they had seven or eight hours of weekly television to fill no way in hell they could get away with that. How is the weekly (is it weekly even?) TV anyway? I hear a lot about big shows, but not much about week-to-week in smaller venues. I heard the weekly tv is just matches from the ppvs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I know they do some things at Korakuen Hall, which is a smaller venue. I just haven't heard much about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 NJPW booking has been comically overrated for some time now. Don't get me wrong. They are a company on the rise in many ways, you can't say they have done a poor job at all. But they do not have real depth at the top of the card and that is the fault of the booking. That said they also have a promotional model that makes it far easier to get by with three guys clearly a peg above everyone else. If they had seven or eight hours of weekly television to fill no way in hell they could get away with that. How is the weekly (is it weekly even?) TV anyway? I hear a lot about big shows, but not much about week-to-week in smaller venues. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think they have anything in the way of standard, weekly TV currently in Japan. There is the one hour "World Pro Wrestling" show on BS Asahi but that just consists of month old matches from the big shows. They aired some of the small shows as single camera (no announcing) shoots on Nico Nico in 2014 but that has presumably stopped now that they have NJPW World. Otherwise, the rest of the TV is full, live shows from Koraukuen or other mid-sized venues that air on Samurai TV and now (some at least) on NJPW World. I think the booking over the past couple of years has been generally been fine. They made several decisions in 2014 that I thought were smart. Rather than burn through Nakamura-Okada-Tanahashi combinations at the top of cards (with those guys holding both of the top titles) for the entire year to the point of burning the fans out on those guys, they wisely took a step back. Nakamura feuded with a couple of Gracies and then Bad Luke Fale, before dropping the IC title to Fale for a bit. Okada dropped the IWGP title to Styles and feuded with him for a while. Tanahashi sort of wondered around. They focused the spring/summer/early fall on the Bullet Club so the three top guys could take a step back. At the end of the day, business held up just fine and they got through 6 or so months of 2014 without building entirely around the top three. That will ideally payoff in 2015 & later down the road since they theoretically saved up on some bigger matches they might have otherwise run in 2014. I do agree that New Japan has a lack of younger talent with obvious star potential. If they don't develop or acquire a star or two in the next couple of years there might be a problem, but the same could be said for a lot of promotions historically. No promotion has ever had a constant flow of star talent coming through. In the short-term, I think they are okay. Styles is over. Ibushi is over. They still have Styles vs. Nakamura and Styles vs. Ibushi has big programs. They also have potential Ibushi vs. Tanahashi and Ibushi vs. Okada programs. We will see what they do to address the lack of young, quality depth the next year or so, but I don't see that as a major flaw of the booking. The booking is not perfect. Anyone who praises it as all-time great booking is probably going overboard. There have been hiccups (running Okada/Nakamura at the Seibu Dome with no build is an obvious one) and they have an aging roster, but they have also made a lot of smart moves over the past year+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brady Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I liked the show, the issue with Flipps really took away some of the enjoyment. Overall, 3 3/4 stars to me. Ross seemed lost occasionally (went minutes without mentioning a wrestler's name during the action, as in he couldn't tell them apart) and Striker's voice is fingernail on chalkboard annoying to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Also with the booking it now evens their record so when/if Okada goes over next time he'll take the advantage in the head to head encounters and make it seem like a real passing of the torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Just watched the Nakamura/Ibushi fight with the JR/Striker commentary. I thought JR did a pretty good job on what can't have been any easy call and Striker was all right as well, aside from a couple of lame catchphrases and a snarky swipe at critics of their work. They were a bit over the top with the level of star they made Nakamura out to be, but that sort of thing's to be expected. The match started out slow and the highflying stuff from Ibushi's not really my thing, but once it turned into a slug fest it was a heck of a spectacle and JR got right into it. Nakamura still doesn't seem like much to me outside of knee strikes and the odd submission, but his stretch runs are exciting and he's excellent at timing his Bomba Ye attempts. The finish was well booked and it turned into an excellent bout, but the elephant in the room was the constant head shots. As much as we complain about Tanahashi being light as a feather, Nakamura is the other extreme. A lot of it looks sickeningly good, but is it really that skillful? I don't really like the image it portrays especially when they're trying to shove it down our throats as real sport. Those feelings aside, the match was very good, though not something I can see Ibushi replicating too often particularly given his standard offence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 The Tanahashi/Okada match was far from the best in their series. If I didn't know better, I'd almost think that type of praise is predetermined. The early feeling out period was deathly dull. Striker tried to sell it like Tanahashi hadn't gotten out of the blocks yet, but early Okada control work is never that interesting. He even flirted with the same guardrail shit he does every match, but turned it into a DDT instead. The match picked up when Tanahashi took over, and I actually think his strikes have improved in recent times, though there's still a lot of air when he sells them. The match built pretty well from there with the HFF to the outside over the guardrail being a memorable spot, but they missed a beat on that Rainmaker kick out. That should have been a much bigger moment. Why it wasn't part of the finishing stretch is beyond me? It didn't help that they cut to a long shot of Tanahashi's Rainmaker pose, then a crowd shot, before cutting back to the kick out sequence from a strange angle. As usual, the finishing stretch was the best part of the bout and I dug Tanahashi immobilising Okada with the dragon screw leg whips before the finish. The match didn't feel at all special and wasn't helped by JR going into full on hype mode. JR praising it as an all-time great match was always going to be unconvincing, but it was annoying nonetheless. I wasn't down with Okada crying either, but at least Tanahashi was a prick to him on the mic. I'm going *** 3/4 on this one with the 3/4 being a decent stretch run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 It was probably my favorite of their series actually, though I'll be rewatching it soon as I'm rewatching the whole thing on NJ World. Totally agreed about the Rainmaker spot though, the first kickout immediately after a Rainmaker should've been a much better moment after how much that move that been protected. It wasn't even dramatic because at that point in the match you knew it wasn't going to end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Well we knew Meltzer's ratings would be OTT, but that was a very strong show. They blew through the undercard, but as others have said, if that's to give sufficient time to the top matches it's the right call. The junior tag crew have their shit down, and the early matches were just about guys getting their spots in, keeping up a good pace, and it flew by. Saku/Minoru was disappointing. I actually think they made the right call in doing a story-driven match - it's twenty years since the style drew in big numbers - and whilst they seemed to be in the wrong roles, the real issue to me was the finish came that bit too easily and they needed an extra three or four minutes. Makabe/Ishii went as predicted, and whilst Omega is way too over the top, I don't find him as other-worldly bad as some of you - his offence looks good, if nothing else, and if he tones the mannerisms down he's perfectly fine in the spot he's in. The tag title match benefitted tremendously from cutting time from last month, and Styles/Naito was good, building to a really well done finish. Nakamura/Ibushi was really good and MOTN. I love the upstart-pushes-vet-but-not-quite angle as much as the next guy, but the shift in physicality really worked and, as OJ said, turned it into quite the spectacle (in the right setting). The main? It wasn't their best, and at times was outright bizarre. Okada's DVD is usually a good near fall and was wasted (which I'd be ok with as an emphasised heel cut off but it didn't last for long), but the positioning of the Rainmaker was flabbergasting. And, as per, the stretch run (whilst good) was my-turn-your-turn city. That said those guys have more than enough positives to where an average match is a good one. So looking at it top to bottom I mean that makes a worthy show, and (helped by the setting) a Show of the Year Contender... but Best Show Ever and 7 **** matches (I could go **** on the IC) etc is ludicrous. But again, that's expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 PS. What hurt the main to me is it felt set up for Okada's new finish. It cooled after the HFF and Rainmaker, and both guys are selling the "what's it gonna take now?" and that ended up just being another HFF. It doesn't improve the match dramatically or excuse the placement of the Rainmaker, but I think the finish would have made more sense with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Okada got pinned by Fale in a tag at Korakuen today, so for those of you questioning where they're going after the Dome loss, there you go. I like the idea so long as they actually have the guts to do without him in a drawing position for the time being and see the angle through to next year's Dome show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 So looking at it top to bottom I mean that makes a worthy show, and (helped by the setting) a Show of the Year Contender... but Best Show Ever and 7 **** matches (I could go **** on the IC) etc is ludicrous. But again, that's expected. To be fair, Meltzer said that the Dome show two years ago was better, so he didn't go completely overboard with the praise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I enjoyed the show, but I sure didn't get any "best of the year" type of vibes from it. I didn't think anythin was awful, but nothing truly jumped out like an early contender for a 2015 MOTY. Of course, I watched it with some buddies, so maybe a second viewing will bring something out that I didn't notice. I thought JR sounded genuinely enthusiastic, a throwback to his NWA/WCW days. It's obviously a side effect of not having Vince or anyone screaming into his ear. I thought Striker did well, but he made a few comments that left he scratching my head. Plugging puroresufan.com, after Stuart had already announced that he was discontinuing updates. Suzuki as one of the founders of MMA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Suzuki as one of the founders of MMA? That's not outrageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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