dawho5 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've been working my way through the major and suggested minor All Japan matches from 90 on and it's been really fascinating stuff. Watching Misawa & co. develop as workers over the last two and a half years (I'm in June of 92) has been really eye opening. One thing I'm noticing is that starting from 10/19/90 Misawa and his young cohorts seem to have a new confidence in themselves and their roles and everything builds up from there. And by mid 92 that confidence is manifesting itself in them approaching matches in different ways using the same things they have been using with a few additions here and there. I think that it's a lost time period for All Japan outside of a few matches everyone knows about. To me that's a real shame because despite these guys becoming great, great workers who developed a very advanced heavyweight style, they were actually working top notch matches in a much more standard style for a few years until they worked up to that point. And I'm a huge fan of their later work, but this period lends a lot of perspective as far as how great they were. I actually like some elements of the 92 style better than later versions. Rollups and submissions can end matches, which adds another dimension to Misawa putting on a stepover facelock 25 minutes into a match. There are certainly missteps and matches where a worker or several workers just aren't making things work for stretches, but that's part of how they got there. The historian in me is really loving how this is playing out so far. And the wrestling fan in me is loving how from 10/19/90 forward there has been a constant progression in the overall story of the youth movement against Jumbo's squad (who have two of the young guys featured). And each matchup has it's own history that can be played off of in tags or singles matches. Maybe it's because I came into wrestling late and started watching WCW when it was clusterfucked at the top by Nash and Hogan with the competition being Attitude era WWE, but the consistent story being told over that time is really impressive. Baba seems like a booking genius in how he progresses his young guys without killing the heat on his big names. It doesn't hurt that he's got Jumbo, Fuchi and Hansen around to guide things along when it's needed. Did I miss out on this kind of thing in the days of the territories? Or is this a pretty rare deal in wrestling due to Baba being the one guy making the calls and having a clear vision of how things should work? Because I find that even though this feud has gone on a while, it's been mixed up enough as far as how the matches are worked that it still works. Very likely because there is that thread of umbrella storytelling running through most of the matches. Edit: title ought to be "Coherent" but I'm not that bright. Any way that can be modified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Parv and I have talked about the booking of AJPW in our All Japan Excite Series podcast. The elevation of guys was masterfully done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Yeah it was on the last episode. Baba's three big virtues as a booker are: 1. Patience. The guy never rushes, like at all, unless circumstances force his hand (Tenryu leaving). And even then he takes at least two years to build Misawa. 2. Structure / rigidity / maintaining hierarchy -- this is hard to sum up in one word, but the hierarchy in AJPW is so well established and well maintained that when a guy is getting pushed and elevated, you sure as hell know it. For our conversation this was triggered by the way Taue (not Jumbo) started getting pins in those last tags of Jumbo's in 92. "Masterful" is the word. I put Baba right up there as a booker. 3. Timing. That is knowing exactly when to pull the trigger on a guy. Jumbo in 83, Tenryu in 89, Misawa in 91. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 pol talked about this with me before - how most wrestling is honestly bad at telling long-term stories entirely in the ring, and how 90s AJPW stands out because of that. i would say it's very similar to video games in terms of struggling to use the unique strengths of the medium...i guess the AJPW equivalent there would be out of this world/another world. EDIT: parv, i would say your point #2 became a negative toward the end of the decade. AJPW had a hard time recruiting fresh native talent once people realized that you'd have to wait like 5+ years to get a real push. baba was only willing to strap the rocket to gaijin, so your only major new guys coming in were the likes of gary albright and vader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted March 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I would add to Parv's points (intentional?) the way he keeps mixing up the facets of the big rivalries. Jumbo/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi was the big match, but over time there were different iterations of the 6-mans and the tags that gave somebody like a Kobashi or Kikuchi a chance to work above their station. Part of how we look at wrestling in the U.S. is wins and losses. Too many losses and the guy is a jobber. But in Japan, a lot of the way they build their guys up is how they perform in losses against higher ranked opposition. So Kikuchi progressively getting better showings against Jumbo and Taue over the course of a year is huge. And somebody like Kobashi who can do significant damage to Jumbo or Taue but is still far from pinning them can prove to be a very valuable part of a tag match. The same goes for Taue or Fuchi with Misawa. They can turn the tide for their team by damaging the right opponent at the right time and handing Misawa or Jumbo a weakened rival that is easier to put away. Or at the very least far more likely to tag out and provide easier pickings. Kawada has actually come a long way towards being a star in his own right. It may be that is the reason why Taue had such a big role in the 6/5 tag. I truly love how all of these sub-rivalries make big contributions within the greater feud without ever really threatening to eclipse it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 AJPW was and has been criticized for moving too slow. The criticism isn't an over bearing one, but it's certainly there. Baba was of the 60's mentality. Slow, stretch it out, try and milk it as much as possible. Don't go too big.. the drop from there might not be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 It could be that with 20 years distance, we like that now? I've liked the little I've seen of 90-92 a lot more than what followed. I should really focus on that period, but I'd feel the need to penalize guys for their later work that I really don't want to see so who knows. If I watch it, it'd be solely for my own enjoyment and not for any sort of project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I certainly agree! How people watch is totally different now than then. Watching a year in a few months, just isn't the same as the week in week out. But I don't think Baba was weaving a purposeful grand tapestry. He was working the formula, and he was very fortunate. Hallmarks of a great business man, in any field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I'm doing a watchthrough of 90's All Japan as well right now. I've seen a bunch of the big matches throughout the years, but never in a certain chronological order. I'm near the end of 1990 right now, and what really strikes me as how important the booking of the Four Corners made them seem in a relatively short period of time. They may not be on top yet, but they really seem like a big deal, and very much "THE FUTURE OF THE COMPANY". Maybe it's just because I know now how big they would become, but I think Baba did a really great job of picking four guys he knew would be able to carry the company, and slowly building them up to a point where them taking over as the main event just seemed so natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 If Jumbo doesn't get sick tho.. Does the rise take even longer? The timing of it all. They were all positioned well. But it does almost run as, Misawa beats Jumbo, and Jumbo is done. And hey!! all these new guys you were really starting to like anyways. I think it ended up being the right thing at the right time. I don't think it was anyone's plan tho. One of the great wrestling What If's.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Like most creators, Baba didn't know how to end things and the Four Pillars thing went on forever. I sometimes wonder what the reaction to 90s All Japan would be if it were happening in real time today. New Japan is often criticised for being stale, too thin on top, and repetitive; what would Twiiter have to say about 90s All Japan? Similar criticisms were being made during the rspw days, and I wonder how it would be these days if people had reason to care about the results and not just the match quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KrisZ Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 One of the biggest mistakes Baba made was not pulling the trigger on Akiyama as Triple Crown champ when Akiyama got really hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Like most creators, Baba didn't know how to end things and the Four Pillars thing went on forever. I sometimes wonder what the reaction to 90s All Japan would be if it were happening in real time today. New Japan is often criticised for being stale, too thin on top, and repetitive; what would Twiiter have to say about 90s All Japan? Similar criticisms were being made during the rspw days, and I wonder how it would be these days if people had reason to care about the results and not just the match quality. I wonder if this is a problem that any wrestling show could overcome now? It feels as though fans are as guilty of micomanaging and overanalysing everything as promoters now - nothing gets a chance to breathe. With the social media explosion, is there just too much data to draw any conclusions on whether something's working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strand Peanut Posted March 18, 2015 Report Share Posted March 18, 2015 I think a lot of the new data is noise tho. People always complained before, it's just personified and archived now. And I don't think either of those factors should give it greater value. Social media shouldn't drive any business more than comment cards used to. And if it's purely a perception problem.. who better to manage perception than old school wrestlers? Heh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Contrast the number of people who tweeted leave the network and the number who actually did. Just noise is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I've been watching some WWF from summer 1998 lately. It's stuff I really haven't looked at that much since it happened live. What's jumping out at me is remembering me and my friends being quite happy watching it. We weren't on-line at the time, and most of our news came from Power Slam. It was a completely different experience, but I'm not going to try to recreate it now. It's just that sometimes it feels like there's so much bullsh*t to wade through if you want to get to something worth reading/listening to. This applies to everything in 2015, not just wrestling. EDIT - I'm not saying there's loads of bullsh*t in PWO. Just everywhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 I've said this before though, Mick, but if you look back through the Observors and Torches through history, you'll see that the smart community is always in a semi-permanent state of disgruntlement about something or other. Is it possible that you and your mates in 98 weren't "smart" in that sense? And that more fans now, especially those who go on twitter and to live shows, think that they are "smart"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 Yeah, that's true Parv. Three years ago, I started reading through Observers from what I consider golden periods (NWA 1989, 1992) and wondered what everyone was complaining about. Similarly, I was on-line by 2000 and wondered why people were complaining. I knew I was living through what I considered a golden period (and still do now). 1998 is a different matter. At the time, I preferred WCW purely for depth of talent and quality of good to great tv matches. Even though I could see that WWF was doing far more with less talent, as long as WCW would throw out strong matches (even if they ultimately felt like they were in a vacuum) I was happier with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 yea, if the wrestling is great, the smart fans will complain about the booking and/or business (89/92 WCW). if business & booking are gangbusters, they'll complain about the lack of great matches (attitude era). i mean, modern WWE would sound like a fucking dream promotion if you went back in time and described it to the 90s crowd... hardcore fans of anything believe that you can always improve, and tend to think the ways to do so are obvious. they also generally want their hobby to be cool, which partially explains the fixation on the business side of things. i do think wrestling fandom is more business-obsessed than virtually any other i know of, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted March 19, 2015 Report Share Posted March 19, 2015 'they also generally want their hobby to be cool, which partially explains the fixation on the business side of things.' They get the same inferiority complex as promoters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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