Timbo Slice Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 I understand not wanting to ding Satomura because of the landscape she worked most of her prime in, but at the same time, if you're gonna tell me that Satomura's best against Hojo was better than the two DreamSlam matches, the '93 Grand Prix and TLTB matches she had, the St. Final match that, while not much of a match was one hell of an angle, and, if you want to go a bit further, better than the Queendom tag, then we're gonna be apples and oranges. Simple as that. The 16 month stretch Hokuto had from Dream Rush to the Queendom tag is one of the greatest stretches in wrestling history, let alone female wrestling history. She's a fine performer, but her best doesn't touch Hokuto's. Or Aja's '94. Or Kandori's 93. Or even Kyoko's '93. Or Toyota's 13 month stretch from Dream Rush to the St. Final tag, maybe even out to tag title match with LCO a few months later. That's what Meiko is going up against when it comes to peaks. She doesn't have that peak, and while that's not entirely her fault, it's still a part of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Satomura obvious carryjobs include vs. a very green Kana in 2010, vs. way over the hill Tamura also in 2010, vs. Genki in 2004, Hojo matches mentioned, vs. Nanae Takahashi, vs. Kimura in 2006, etc. These are all opponents who don't really have a lot of good matches outside that. Hojo really can't do anything well except selling and all her non-Satomura matches I've seen are crap. Not saying Satomura is a Kawada-tier superworker dragging the Gary Albrights of this world into classics, as most joshi workers are game to some degree and girls like Aja or Kato turn into different workers when they face Meiko. But for me it takes a certain confinement for the style to work and Satomura sets that more consistently and better than damn near anyone else. Again I'm talking about individual performance and not sheer volume or workrate or whatever. I've never seen an individual performance from Toyota, Inoue, Kansai etc. that comes any close to the stuff Satomura does in her average match, not in 1993 or any other time. Atleast not in terms of what I want from a worker, that is good selling, timing, execution, presence, etc. In fact I am surprised OJ mentions Kansai carrying an entire company when I never thought Kansai was very special outside of a singles match against Yamada maybe. I'll probably have to look deeper into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Kansai at her peak (mid 90's until the health problems) was a terrific worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 What are the best Kansai matches then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 But for me it takes a certain confinement for the style to work and Satomura sets that more consistently and better than damn near anyone else. I think that's the crux of the argument. Meiko wrestles a style you like, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's the best at working Joshi puroresu the way it's traditionally been worked. It's like those people who don't like lucha, but think that 55 year-old Negro Casas is one of the best in the world. Kansai was the ace of JWP. JWP was a promotion that some of us followed closely because it had a "little promotion that could" vibe about it. She had some annoying tendencies like most Joshi workers, but she was also in some great matches both in JWP and AJW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 But for me it takes a certain confinement for the style to work and Satomura sets that more consistently and better than damn near anyone else. I think that's the crux of the argument. Meiko wrestles a style you like, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's the best at working Joshi puroresu the way it's traditionally been worked. This is not a troll, but I'm curious as to why you think this matters (i.e. traditional over non-traditional) and in what ways is Satomura a non-traditional performer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 I probably didn't express that very well since it's the early hours of the morning over here. There's a way that Joshi puroresu has always been worked, a way these girls were trained to work, and a way the audience wanted to see and the girls wanted to work. People may or may not like it, but it's a style that developed and evolved over time and has certain tropes and conventions and in-built expectations. If you don't like the style, or you only enjoy it when it's reeled in, I can understand that, but I think there's a philosophical debate here about whether workers who work in a non-traditional way are objectively better than the standard bearers for the more traditional style. I mean saying you like this girl or that girl because they wrestle more like other workers you like is fine, but claiming Satomura is better than some of the biggest names in the game in one of the best years of its history is a pretty big claim and I'm not sure how it stacks up from an objective stand point of what Joshi workers set out to do. The degree to which Satomura is a non-traditional worker is something that would have to be fleshed out if the discussion is to continue because I have to get ready for work, but the reason I highlighted that comment as the crux of the argument is that we all know restraint isn't a hallmark of Joshi puroresu. So if Satomura is a more restrained worker then she's slightly less traditional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k1gYqBgXyMCt9xciZh0 Just found the recent 7/26 Hojo/Satomura World of Stardom Championship match online. It's worth checking out, much better than that Fortune Dream match of theirs linked above. Meiko puts in a very good performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Awesome. Watching after work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Well, that was... good. I dunno, I'll try and watch it again tomorrow cause I'm tired and I need the booking of it to sink in. I wasn't expecting such a decisive finish. Thought last months match was way better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 [...] Out of curiousity, do you think Hokuto and Kandori are also non-traditional joshi workers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Kandori, yes. Hokuto, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Well, I think Meiko can't be faulted for the style she is working. Do you think her matches like that Hojo match would be better if they were worked like a 1993 match? She doesn't really have the opponents to do that, so she has found her own formula that she can stick anyone into and work it out. That 90s style is fucking dead and let's be real going back and watching the matches you can tell why. Can't fault a worker for seeing the pitfalls and taking a new, better route. So I guess this goes to comparing apples and oranges and I think comparing apples and oranges is necessary for this kind of list. The same goes for Casas - I mean give him a break, he's 50 years old, he's not going to do a super intense 30 minute matwork clinic anymore nor is CMLL going to let him. His shtick-ladden arena mexico appearances aren't that different from his 90s work in places like Monterrey anyways. EDIT: Actually I misread that about Casas, but it's not like being the best in the world or in a top 15 in 2015 means you are anything special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 Well, that was... good. I dunno, I'll try and watch it again tomorrow cause I'm tired and I need the booking of it to sink in. I wasn't expecting such a decisive finish. Thought last months match was way better. I think the body of the June match might have been stronger, but this one ultimately left me more satisfied, probably because of the finish. I thought it did a great job of telling a story that built off the June match. Really enjoyed both though. Meiko is having a great year so far. Also, holy shit, Meiko reversing Hojo's elbow drop into a cross armbreaker was just fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Hmm, I don't think it really played of the last match. The number one thing that I loved about the June match was that it was a struggle for almost the whole match. You had to earn what you got. Here it seem like the typical give and take of a match, with Satomura having the advantage simply because she was the stronger more experienced wrestler. That sort of negated the growth that Hojo made during the last match. I guess you could say that Hojo made a strategic error of thinking that she could go straight at Meiko and paid the price, but that didn't really come through with her character. They ended up having the match that you would have expected last month. Maybe I'm overreacting since I think that Hojo's title run has been great and I didn't want it to end this way cause she could potential end up being something special. I don't want her to end up being a flash in the pan like Momoe Nakanishi because she is a more complete worker and has a more genuine connection with the crowd, (that was a big crowd for a recent joshi show.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Yeah, I think that the June match was the tighter match and that this was meant to be more of a spectacle, especially with the crowd stuff, and it had kind of a mixed metaphor with Hojo being both reckless enough to go for the balcony dive but canny enough to work Satomura's back, while Satomura just knocked Kairi's lights out. I liked it a good amount, but I just think that the first go was one of the best matches of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Hmm, I don't think it really played of the last match. The number one thing that I loved about the June match was that it was a struggle for almost the whole match. You had to earn what you got. Here it seem like the typical give and take of a match, with Satomura having the advantage simply because she was the stronger more experienced wrestler. That sort of negated the growth that Hojo made during the last match. I guess you could say that Hojo made a strategic error of thinking that she could go straight at Meiko and paid the price, but that didn't really come through with her character. They ended up having the match that you would have expected last month. Maybe I'm overreacting since I think that Hojo's title run has been great and I didn't want it to end this way cause she could potential end up being something special. I don't want her to end up being a flash in the pan like Momoe Nakanishi because she is a more complete worker and has a more genuine connection with the crowd, (that was a big crowd for a recent joshi show.) I just liked Hojo acting pretty desparate to get the win in this one, which I think was building off their recent encounters. Hojo lost their match at Fortune Dream in December, but she grew a lot in between that and the June match (becoming champ and all), so maybe she thought she could take this veteran down. She couldn't, but she didn't lose, so she thinks that she knows enough about Meiko to win a rematch, which she readily accepts. But it turns out that it was Meiko, not Hojo, who only needed a rematch to win, and in resounding fashion no less. It gets me excited for the rematch of the rematch now, and see when Hojo can finally overcome Meiko and (hopefully) win her title back. I was enjoying Kairi's reign as well, and hope to see her as champ again soon. And in really liked all the work done in the match as well. Felt very intense to me, lots of brutal strikes and whatnot. Not sure if it was better than the June match, but I'm never the biggest fan of time limit draws in general, no matter how good they are, so I'm kinda naturally inclined towards the one with a decisive finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Well, I think Meiko can't be faulted for the style she is working. Do you think her matches like that Hojo match would be better if they were worked like a 1993 match? She doesn't really have the opponents to do that, so she has found her own formula that she can stick anyone into and work it out. That 90s style is fucking dead and let's be real going back and watching the matches you can tell why. Can't fault a worker for seeing the pitfalls and taking a new, better route. So I guess this goes to comparing apples and oranges and I think comparing apples and oranges is necessary for this kind of list. It's funny you mention the style is dead because the last time I watched a significant amount of modern Joshi, which was from the '06-08 period, it seemed like they hadn't moved on a lot from 1993. If the 1993 style is dead perhaps it's because there's no audience. Workrate Joshi was a thrilling live product but you can't do much with it without an audience. I think 1993 is being unfairly singled out here, though, as Joshi grew much worse from '94-96 in terms of excess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted August 6, 2015 Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k1gYqBgXyMCt9xciZh0 Just found the recent 7/26 Hojo/Satomura World of Stardom Championship match online. It's worth checking out, much better than that Fortune Dream match of theirs linked above. Meiko puts in a very good performance. Damn, I misread this as being a re-up of their match from earlier in the year. This felt like by the numbers Satomura which is to say it was decent but nothing to get excited over. Hojo strikes me as a typical modern joshi worker in that she's pretty, fairly bland and inoffensive. She played her part by bringing the crowd into it and hitting some nice double handed chops. That first spinning back hand chop she hit was a thing of beauty. There was a lot of sloppiness from her though, especially with the roll ups. To be fair it looked like Meiko knocked her loopy with them nasty unprotected kicks towards the end. I loved Satomura getting pissed and running after Hojo back through the crowd only to kick herself into the post. The ending was cool but it felt like it deflated the crowd. It's been years since I've seen such a strong looking attendance for a joshi show. I know sod all about Stardom booking but it felt like the wrong move in this instance. As for Satomura, she can still go but she doesn't have the charisma of some of the other working vets (Ozaki, Shimoda, Nagashima etc.) to keep me interested in her working lesser opponents. She does seem to turn up a couple of times a year in awesome matches though. I'm still on the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted September 11, 2015 Report Share Posted September 11, 2015 http://joshicity.com/top-five-joshi-matches-of-the-year/ Link has both of the Hojo/Satomura title matches. They are both private videos so you have to play them on that page, not Dailymotion itself. The Kana tag and Nakajima vs. Shida are worth checking out too. Didn't really care for Ayako vs. Shida. Edit: Both matches back up on Youtube 6/14 - https://youtu.be/QZwS5Vs_MJs 7/26 - https://youtu.be/pysE-txkQGk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Found her 2010 singles vs. Kana https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atpUDLdCFsw Damn epic match and likely their best against eachother, check it out if you haven't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Jetlag have you seen this? It's not really a match that's about Satomura per se but it rules. The contrast in how much Marufuji sells for Satomura vs. how much Suzuki sells for Kana is highly amusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetlag Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 I enjoyed that match. Altough Satomura wasn't the focus, her exchanges with Kana ruled. These two have to be among the best matchups of the 2010s in japanese wrestling (the other best matchup being Akiyama vs. anyone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 The Satomura/Hamada match that just popped up is pretty great: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x39xbsc_ayako-hamada-vs-meiko-satomura-in-sendai-girls-on-10-11-15_tv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted October 18, 2015 Report Share Posted October 18, 2015 Too "my turn/your turn" for my tastes. Super stiff though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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