Trish Stratus

[thebrainfollower]

If I have to take you at your word Loss than you probably know little to nothing about WWE women's wrestling from 2000 to the present. To compare Trish to Brie freaking Bella is about as accurate as comparing Ricky Steamboat to Tom Zenk. Other than being good looking, they have little in common. Trish, with barely a year's experience got a much better match with Stephanie McMahon and did so despite Steph's ego eating her alive in that match than Brie did with 8 years experience.

 

Listen to any Trish heel promo from 2004, particularly some of her stuff against Jericho and then tell me if you can find a Brie Bella promo that compares. Find a Brie Bella match or Nattie match beyond ONE (that got more time than anything Trish did by double) that compares to the best 10 or so matches of Trish's career. There aren't any. And consider this. In her entire career, Trish was never given more than 15 minutes to work in a singles match. Not once in her entire career. No wonder she never got beyond 3.5 stars (for the record I think she has 2 at or near 4). Watch a BAD Trish Stratus match (like say the Nidia one from heat 2004 and watch someone who's worked out exactly how to work heel against a lesser opponent and get real heat. It's a smart performance against someone who never amounted to much. Heck just watch the amount of effort she puts into a darn chinlock during that match and compare that to Randy Orton.

 

As for AJ that's a little more valid because AJ was on top for a few years. But by the end, people just wanted AJ to go away and were totally apathetic to her. I also don't think AJ ever really had a great match, could work face and heel well (Heel sort of, face no) and got fans to care and was given a lot more of the spotlight for a brief time than Trish was.

 

You talk about how Trish was over when wrestling was hot. The peak of Trish's career was 2002-2006. The same years when WWE plunged from it's greatest success to today's mediocrity. 2000 was a hot year 2004 Raw was sure as heck not. She did not get over during a popular period, she got over after it during the worst run (Raw 2002-2005) in WWF history IMO. Watch the Lita raw match from 2004 for the way it's presented, worked and fan reactions. Blows HHH and anything he did out of the water and she's a much much better heel than him too.

 

Or how awesome Trish was just being a total blitch to people like Christy. She knew how to make a totally idiotic program idea work as well as anyone possibly could.

[Childs]

You're still not getting the basic fact that it's what Trish accomplished what she did in that environment that warrants her inclusion in my opinion. You think it's a thin case, I think it's a good case. Just different opinions.

 

As for it being a thin talent pool, yes it was. COMPARED TO AN ENTIRE COMPANY In Japan, something that covered about 15% of a company's TV time would probably have a thin talent pool.

 

Also the fact that it came from such a lousy heritage like Moolah.

 

Looking at ratings I did give Trish-Mickie and the Raw main event with Lita 4 stars FWIW.

No I get it, I just think it's a difference in methodology worth fleshing out. How far do you go in grading on a curve, you know?

 

Anyway, enough of that. I agree the Trish-Mickie Mania match was quite good and that Trish deserves ample respect for making chicken salad.

[thebrainfollower]

Trish's best matches got way more heat than Alundra Blayze's stuff. That streetfight was not her best even against Victoria in that style. She had 2 much better ones later on.

 

Saying Alundra-Bull blew away the average Trish match in terms of wrestling skill presented is true, but doesn't diminish the case for Trish in the slightest.

 

Did she do tons of matwork? Nope and neither did 90% of the roster at the time. Unless you are prepared to exclude Rock for the same reason. Cause he only did that stuff with Benoit and Angle.

[Loss]

If I have to take you at your word Loss than you probably know little to nothing about WWE women's wrestling from 2000 to the present. To compare Trish to Brie freaking Bella is about as accurate as comparing Ricky Steamboat to Tom Zenk. Other than being good looking, they have little in common. Trish, with barely a year's experience got a much better match with Stephanie McMahon and did so despite Steph's ego eating her alive in that match than Brie did with 8 years experience.

 

Listen to any Trish heel promo from 2004, particularly some of her stuff against Jericho and then tell me if you can find a Brie Bella promo that compares. Find a Brie Bella match or Nattie match beyond ONE (that got more time than anything Trish did by double) that compares to the best 10 or so matches of Trish's career. There aren't any. And consider this. In her entire career, Trish was never given more than 15 minutes to work in a singles match. Not once in her entire career. No wonder she never got beyond 3.5 stars (for the record I think she has 2 at or near 4). Watch a BAD Trish Stratus match (like say the Nidia one from heat 2004 and watch someone who's worked out exactly how to work heel against a lesser opponent and get real heat. It's a smart performance against someone who never amounted to much. Heck just watch the amount of effort she puts into a darn chinlock during that match and compare that to Randy Orton.

 

As for AJ that's a little more valid because AJ was on top for a few years. But by the end, people just wanted AJ to go away and were totally apathetic to her. I also don't think AJ ever really had a great match, could work face and heel well (Heel sort of, face no) and got fans to care and was given a lot more of the spotlight for a brief time than Trish was.

 

You talk about how Trish was over when wrestling was hot. The peak of Trish's career was 2002-2006. The same years when WWE plunged from it's greatest success to today's mediocrity. 2000 was a hot year 2004 Raw was sure as heck not. She did not get over during a popular period, she got over after it during the worst run (Raw 2002-2005) in WWF history IMO. Watch the Lita raw match from 2004 for the way it's presented, worked and fan reactions. Blows HHH and anything he did out of the water and she's a much much better heel than him too.

 

Or how awesome Trish was just being a total blitch to people like Christy. She knew how to make a totally idiotic program idea work as well as anyone possibly could.

 

First of all, I meant to say Nikki and not Brie. I see people rave about Nikki Bella's in-ring work on this board all the time, so that particular comparison doesn't seem nearly as asinine.

 

Second, you seem to be encompassing a far more broad idea when it comes to ranking, which is fine, but I'm not seeing much about her ring work. It's more about her overall sense of accomplishment. Fair enough, and you did mention Hogan placing in your top 20. Hopefully, Bruno, The Sheik, Dusty, Graham and Nikita Koloff make the list too.

[Loss]

And Rock wouldn't make my list. A great performer, but not really a great wrestler.

[thebrainfollower]

I go far enough I give Hogan a top 20 spot. Because as I keep saying I am not counting just ring work and matches. Counting look, promo, overness, impact on wrestling and other stuff.

[thebrainfollower]

Bruno and Dusty will yes. The Sheik will make top 50. Graham was TERRIBLE in ring so not sure. . Trish was a better in ring worker than him by miles. Nikita........what did he accomplish to be on the same list as Bruno lol?

 

Okay you meant Nikki. Gotcha. I really like Nikki actually so I think that's fair. As heels they are about even honestly in ring. Nikki does a lot of nice little things showing great character work in ring (situps, push ups, etc, the cocky jock heel act as a woman is a new idea actually IN RING for WWE) and has had some good matches. But Trish has her beat as a face by far. People never got behind Nikki as a face at all and they did for Trish big time. Promo - can't think of a great Nikki promo or one that had fans hating her. Fans DESPISED Trish in 04 despite looking like THAT. That's hard to do and something no other woman then could pull off except Lita which was REAL heat and not kayfabe heat. So Nikki is a fine comparison even if Trish does have her beat in most categories.

 

And Rock makes my top 50.

[Childs]

I'm going to make a general post about this, and it's not targeted at you brainfollower, but my understanding has been that we're ranking in-ring work here, not promos and out-of-ring star power. Obviously, there are some gray areas with issues such as charisma and impact. But I think we need to clarify the intent of the project.

[thebrainfollower]

Let me suggest this Loss. The fact that you got Nikki and Brie confused means you probably barely follow WWE women's wrestling. I barely followed Lucha and was ignorant of Japan until I came on this board. One of the reasons I initially didn't wanna do my list was how little I knew about either and didn't take my own views that seriously. So I went and starting watching as much Japan as I could as well as some lucha. But I treat you guys on here as mentors to learn from and take your views very very seriously. 5 years ago Lawler would not have been in my top 50 now he's top 10 easily.

And last year I watched over 100 Trish Stratus to analyze them all and see if she held up to my memories. So I think I can talk about her and know as much about her as you guys do Stan Hansen as an example.

[thebrainfollower]

If it is just in ring work then I am out. Waste of time IMO and was specifically told that was NOT the case. If it is let me know so I can pull out now.

[thebrainfollower]

And I saw every match she ever had on TV as they happened with about 3 exceptions and watched em a few times between then and now.

[El McKell]

 

How does Trish stand out from Nattie Neidhart, AJ Lee or Brie Bella?

 

Not a single one has a match as good as Trish/Mickie from WM22. Or as good as Trish/Jazz/Victoria from WrestleMania 19. Or probably even as good as Trish/Stephanie from 2001(?).

None of these people are going to make my list but I'd like to disagree with the idea that none of the women listed have a match as good as any if those 3 Trish Stratus matches.

 

Nattie Neidhart: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dni6d_charlotte-vs-natalya_sport

 

AJ Lee: youtube.com/watch?v=TG-biPOCyeo

 

Brie Bella: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x243h98_brie-bella-vs-stephanie-mcmahon_sport

 

I know Loss said he meant Nikki Bella but honestly I don't think there are any examples of a Nikki Bella match that is good enough.

[Jimmy Redman]

Fellow Trish travellers, you and I brainfollower.

 

I'm the one who nominated Trish in the first place and it was my bad that I never posted in this thread when I did. To be honest I figured I'd be out on a limb on my own with this one and was content with being her only vote, so I'm pleasantly surprised that this is a thing.

 

Jingus and brain have articulated what Trish achieved and the degree of difficulty with which she achieved it, so I don't have much to add there.

 

One thing I want to make a point about in regards to ring work is that her ring work is probably a lot more physical than you remember. I think there's this general consensus forming with the developments of recent years whereupon the NXT-led change has brought "real" wrestling to women's matches, and before that it was a black hole of hair pulling and botched ranas and no little actual wrestling. It's not an entirely accurate picture, ESPECIALLY when we're talking about Trish's career, which ended in 2006.

 

I'm not sure when the "no more girls punching" edict came down, or when the general look of girls' matches turned more towards that catty, slapping, hair pulling type of stuff, but there was a point towards the end of the 00s when this did happen. This, however, is not really representative of the early 00s period when Trish worked. During this time there was punching, stomping, forearms, better rope running, less hair pulling and "girls only" moves, and a lot more traditional wrestling moves. Trish's moveset, and the movesets of her peers, included things like spinebusters, backbreakers, DDTs, suplexes. You can watch any of her major matches and see them throwing bombs at each other and punching each other in the face. Not to mention the weapons matches she was involved in. I say this all to make the point that when you think about Trish and then consider the current women's wrestling revival, remember that the current style isn't replacing the Divas matches of Trish's era. It's more that they're replacing the Divas matches of the post-Trish era. (Not that the Trish-present era was worthless or entirely devoid of wrestling either, but that's another soapbox for another day)

 

Her top matches are generally exceedingly obvious, brain might have some thoughts to the contrary but I don't think she's not much of a hidden gem worker, even in comparison to other more recent women who have grown up in the Superstars/Main Event/NXT/C Show oversaturation era and get to have 8 minute matches every week on the down low. Trish is a big picture kind of girl. Her best stuff is her biggest stuff and easy to find:

 

- The entire Lita rivalry, particularly the late 2004 feud culminating in their Raw main event on 12/6/04. I also really love Trish's retirement match vs Lita.

- The entire Mickie James angle from Mickie's debut up until Trish's injury cutting it short. Everyone knows about the WM22 match, but there's also their first PPV match at NYR 2006, which to me is just as great and flies under the radar. They also had a couple of good matches on Raw that year.

- I can't remember what the definitive Trish vs Victoria non-gimmick match is off-hand (I know I found it, I just can't find my notes), but there is of course their street fight from Raw.

- There were a lot of good three-ways in that 2002-03 period (another example of having to rise above her station) like WMXIX, WM18, and I think Insurrexion 2003.

- The Christy carryjob is a hell of a thing, as is the Melina match from Survivor Series 2005, which is amazing for what was Melina's second televised match.

[thebrainfollower]

Hate that Stephanie match. All Stephanie matches are about her guzzling opponents and then never getting hers. Total egomaniac in the ring as protects Vince's daughter.

 

Thought the NXT match was good but nothing great.

 

The Charlotte-Natalya match I can see the argument for but it's nearly twice as long as the longest match Trish was ever allowed to have.

 

And for me ONE great match does not make you better than someone else. I'd argue Savage-Warrior WM VII was better than any Hogan match ever but nobody thinks Warrior is better than Hogan in ring.

[thebrainfollower]

That Christy match was her 2nd tv match too. And Trish went into it with a shoulder so injured she could not lift Christy at all (at one point she goes for the Rock Spinebuster she did and switches to a spear when she realizes she can't even do that right she's so hurt at that point, and yes I asked her about that).

 

It seems like a lot of the critics gave her no attention and have not rewatched her stuff in years and never watched it seriously at all because they hate diva matches. By that standard are we assuming JVK is gonna be the new resident expert in lucha?

 

Some stuff to watch

 

Trish and T and vs. the Hardys - Fully Loaded 2000 - Trish has No clue how to wrestle at this point but watch her act like a total coward and jerk to the point where the crowd is red hot when Lita finally gets her hands on her and beats her. All the male managers who rag on girls with big breasts taking their jobs should watch this and eat crow.

 

The Chyna match from 2001 - only for the small role it played it getting Chyna fired as it convinced Vince he could never trust Chyna to not injure his daughter. This one has never been reported. Chyna was told to give Trish a semi-competitive match and make her look decent and squashed her with 2 moves, hurting her legit in the process. It was well known Chyna hated Trish for her "fake body" giving her a push (I know the irony). Worth nothing as a match though.

 

Trish-Molly from KOTR 2002 and Unforgiven 2002 are really good. I don't think there's a great Trish-Jazz match as Jazz did not give her enough but their UK 2003 match is really good. Trish-Nidia from Heat is strangely quite good and Trish-Victoria raw streetfight is great. I think her Unforgiven match from 2004 is good as well.

 

Trish-Victoria from Raw January 2005. The ONLY time in Trish's career she basically squashed someone, playing a legit psychopath who's so angry she will end Lita's career if she could. The irony being due to a Lita botch she nearly did.

 

There's a Trish-Stacy match from October 2004. They play up that Stacey's long legs are the only chance she has. So Trish switches tactics totally working the leg nearly the whole match and then kicking it out for a pin.

 

Melina at Survivor Series is another great one as is her last match. There's at least 20 Trish matches worth checking out.

[BigBadMick]

'When she's smart enough to be able to talk for 3 minutes on why her style of offense, match pace and body type made the Rock style spinebuster more logical than the Arn one, I got the sense of someone who really cared.'

 

Could you elaborate on this, brainfollower?

[thebrainfollower]

Long story short she thought that her size made doing the AA spinebuster a bad idea as it looked like a power move. I pointed out that AA wasn't really a power wrestler and she countered that HHH was and that it was a steady part of his arsenal. She saw HHH as a power wrestler or at least wanting to be and that doing his move didn't really make any sense.

 

There was the implied point that doing it faster and sharper than him would be a bad idea as well for obvious reasons. And the fact that she, while in shape, isn't really that strong in the arms and that doing that to Victoria and Jazz on a regular night would be a lot harder than doing the Rock's version of it which is a much easier move to get to work for her, according to her.

 

She also thought the Arn one was a more turn the tide for a heel move and when she was sort of working out what moves to do, wanted fast, explosive pop the crowd stuff that could easily then lead into another move for a babyface comeback. Arn's spinebuster is amazing, but it's usually not immediately followed up with anything it's more of a KO the opponent and go for the pin style of move.

 

We also compared Jazz to Clubber Lang and her knowledge of Rocky movies down to scene by scene detail scared the heck out of me. Some of these conversations were actually on her official site's message board (gone for a decade) actually and some were at cons.

 

The point being I got the sense this was someone who really knew and understood 80's wrestling if primarily WWF stuff which was what she said she grew up with. None of which earns her a spot on a list of course, but it's admirable coming from a generation of models who saw wrestling as a chance to make money and become famous and didn't care in the slightest about improving their craft. She SHOULD have been another Stacy or Torrie but loved wrestling enough to actually try. Her Austin podcast isn't great and it's not controversial in the slightest, but it's a good look at how she perceived things.

 

Given how few of you have actually SEEN her work or think much of it I'm tempted to put her under the microscope. I am in no way claiming she's at or better than the top Japanese women, but I do think showing why I think she's the WWF female GOAT and proving why I think if no gender bias existed in WWE she'd have been one of the top 5 stars of the post Attitude era might be worthwhile but I wanna gauge interest.

 

And she knew enough about smart fandom that I got the quote "Oh I know who he is" in reference to Scott Keith.

[The Man in Blak]

Jingus / brainfollower -- you both have put forward the Mickie James WM22 match as a potential MOTN and a four-star match, respectively. Would either of you care to elaborate on why you feel so strongly about this match? I see it as a very solid match, but one that's not quite on that level and I'm curious to hear what elevates it to that level for either of you.

 

It's a little depressing to think of how much better Trish could've been if she hadn't been so stifled by the WWE Diva Style. She was wrestling the same dozen opponents over and over again for her entire career, in matches which usually went less than five minutes, in a division which was largely ignored and denigrated by the overall company as a barely-tolerated sideshow.

 

...

 

Most telling of all is simply how few opponents she had. I just went through Trish's entire Cagematch.net resume (it took forever) and counted up every single woman she ever stepped foot in the ring with. (And no, I'm not counting her three-week comebacks in recent years where she'd have two matches with a whole new roster of girls.) You know how many women, from 2000 to 2006, that she ever wrestled? Twenty. That's it. Her entire career consisted of literally wrestling the same twenty people, over and over again. (And according to Cagematch, the VAST majority of those matches went under five minutes.) And even "twenty" is really an inflated number, considering that the list includes such ringers as Jackie Gayda, Terri Runnels, Stacey Keibler, Christy Hemme, Stephanie McMahon, Torrie Wilson, Ashley Massaro, and "that one time Trish and Jillian Hall happened to be in a battle royale together".

You can count on one hand the number of women she feuded with who actually had more in-ring experience than Trish did. And everyone knows that you're not supposed to be able to learn much by endlessly wrestling the same rookies over and over again (which is a serious problem affecting talent quality in today's industry). But still, Trish DID get better; despite never being properly trained in the first place, despite having a relatively small amount of ring time with an objectively tiny number of opponents, despite being employed by people who never gave much of a shit about women's wrestling to begin with. The fact that Trish improved to the level she did is an unprecedented miracle.

 

The other side of the coin here is that Trish's case is actually enhanced by her being trapped in WWE Diva style because, while the limited match scale and opponent pool limited her resume, it also gave her an opportunity to have more opportunities as a "big fish in a small pond" and the repetition of those opportunities helped her become more well-practiced in that particular (narrow?) style of work.

[thebrainfollower]

Will do later tonight.

 

It's possible you are right about her not being able to up her game in a bigger pond so to speak but that's speculative. It;s a point you could make about 90% of WWE's roster in the last ten years though right?

[The Man in Blak]

It's possible you are right about her not being able to up her game in a bigger pond so to speak but that's speculative. It;s a point you could make about 90% of WWE's roster in the last ten years though right?

 

It is, which is why a lot of those workers aren't being considered highly (if at all) for my GWE list.

[thebrainfollower]

That is very fair and consistent then.

[Childs]

Regardless of where I rate Trish, it's great that you're doing the microscope thread.

[thebrainfollower]

The goal is to cover at least one match of her 20 opponents and a few random tags and such and some promos as well hopefully. I hope other people actually rewatch and comment on some of the matches I am talking about before they make a judgment as to her worth.

[The Man in Blak]

Would it be fair to characterize Trish's case as an "anti-Great Match Theory" case, insofar as a central argument for her inclusion centers around great performances that elevate (or even salvage) lesser matches, rather than simply being involved in a multitude of great matches?

[Matt D]

Would it be fair to characterize Trish's case as an "anti-Great Match Theory" case, insofar as a central argument for her inclusion centers around great performances that elevate (or even salvage) lesser matches, rather than simply being involved in a multitude of great matches?

 

"The Mike Jackson principle."