JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[elliott]

Do notions like psychology apply to lucha? Do any of the usual standards we apply to wrestling matches? Or is it more or less just sitting there dazzled by the bright lights of a fireworks display for twenty minutes before coming out of a coma wondering what the hell you've just seen?

 

[Guest si oem]

simple. stop losing sleep. same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit.simple. stop losing sleep. same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit.simple. stop losing sleep. same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit, same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit. same old shit.simple.

www.wildcarnivalmedia.com for new shit. gawd.

[JerryvonKramer]

You could have spent some time outlining how the assortment of dives and high spots I saw in those matches last night count as psychology or coherent storytelling or conform to any of the other usual standards we apply to wrestling matches. Were the criticisms I made unwarranted? If so, why?

 

In the meantime, more Lucha to come.

 

EDIT: I've been searching online for more on this and it's not like the perception I'm articulating doesn't exist.

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=056502

 

Some dude called "Arn Anderson Fan" back in 2004 even went as far as to say that psychology and lucha are contradictory terms.

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/38xffh/fans_of_lucha_what_are_some_things_a_new_fan/

 

 

 

When watching matches suspend disbelief more than you already do while watching wrestling and try not to think about the match quality with logic, as the psychology of most lucha matches are all over the place. (unlike the american or japanese styles) Just because they do things that seem out of place doesn't mean it isn't a good match, that is what the crowds in Mexico pop for and they matter more then you do.

I'm mean there's a guy trying to get other people into Lucha flat-out saying "forget psychology and logic" when you watch this stuff.

 

http://www.mlw.com/clubhouse/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26

 

I'm sorry if I'm misquoting konnan here but pretty sure he mentioned in a previous podcast with Lucha libre that there really isn't match psychology like American wrestling, lucha is kind of all about wooing the audience with high spots and cool moves which is what makes it good and different to other styles. Sorry I'm probably butchering what he said.

If any of this stuff were ever explained properly to us, I'm sure it would be easier for those of us who really struggle hard to "get" Lucha to get into it.

[Guest si oem]

Parv- are you really expecting an internet message board post from 2004 to stand up as a source? i'm sure íd love "arn anderson fan" or whatever his fuckin name is, i'm sure he's open minded and chatty and cheerful in a way you could never once fuckin manage. you found one fuckin guy to support your racially based horseshit and you quote that here?

 

grow up son.

[JerryvonKramer]

El Hijo del Santo vs. Rey Mysterio Jr (2/21/97)

 

Rey's entrance music here is definitively 1997, techno techno techno. Santo looks cool in his cape. I've always wanted a cape. Crowd seems pretty pro-Santo to me, based on the chants.

 

An awful lot of stalling at the start of this and feeling out at the start of this. They don't actually lock up until the 8-minute mark and even then they break off and circle again. And then a bit of outside interference takes us to more hyping, looking at the crowd and general not actually wrestling. 10-minutes in now. It looks like the chap outside the ring is going to be evicted. 10:35 they lock up.

 

Waist lock / headlock sequence here with some escape attempts. Into a sunset flip. This is pretty slow going. And now there is more outside shenanigans. My god. Fifteen minute mark and they go back to it. Rey goes for leg, but Santo applies headscissors. I liked one little spot where the ref actually counted Santo because his shoulders were down while applying headscissors, neat attention to detail by that ref.

 

They go to a Greco-Roman knuckle lock now. Unwise if you are Rey, I'd say, and he finds himself on his back soon enough. Tries to bridge up out of it. Arm drag. Hurricanrana from the top. And that's the first fall at 19 minutes. Very dull so far. Santo goes over to shake Rey's hand, this seems face vs. face.

 

Dropkick by Rey. And again. Dive over the top rope. Goes for a springboard hurricanrana but Santo catches him for a powerbomb, for the second fall. 21 minutes. So instant reply. No real sense of flow or story in this match so far. It took 15 minutes to start, and then we got two falls in two minutes.

 

Bulldog by Santo. Reverse surfboard camel clutch swingy thing. Backslide. Backdrop on Rey launches his head into the top turnbuckle. Inside cradle gets two. Second bulldog attempt countered. Snapmare by Rey. And again. Double-footed baseball slide. Spin kick. Rey is getting a lot of heel heat. Leg drop from the top onto the bottom rope. Snap mare. There doesn't seem to be any semblance of a game plan here at all. Back drop. Forearm smash. Crowd is really rabidly pro-Santo. Kneelift by him now. Torpedoes himself through the ropes to the outside. Goes for the camel clutch by Rey escapes. And again. Bodyslam. Diving headbutt from the top, two count only. Rey goes for a springboard move but gets caught in the camel clutch and submits.

 

I really did not think this was a good match at all. Took far to long to start and then when it did, we got two far too sudden falls, and the third fall lacked any real semblance of structure, logic, or storytelling apart from the finishing stretch in which the camel clutch was teased before Rey was caught. The biggest issue in that third fall for me, was that what was effectively a heat sequence for Rey was all over the place. It was difficult to see what he was really going for, or how he was planning to beat Santo. The offensive sequence from him was extremely piecemeal. Santo was clearly going for the camel clutch, but that story didn't really start until there was about 3 minutes left. And in thirty minutes of a match, I'd really want more than three minutes of story. Not really recommended.

 

**

 

Blue Panther vs. Love Machine (4/3/92)

 

Love Machine is Art Barr. We covered some of his problems in 1990 on WTBBP on some point. This is mask vs. mask.

 

Panther does a really swank backbreaker near the start of this that got my attention. It was like a butterfly suplex into a backbreaker, that's an uber cool move. He held Love

Machine across the knee for the submission and first fall in about 5 minutes. The falls always seem so sudden. Awesomely cool spot though.

 

Panther goes to work on Love Machine's leg now. Rack. Machine comes back with a clothesline. He has a manager too. Very poor looking DDT by Machine. Execution about a 2/10. Cover gets two. Stomps by Machine now. Dumps him. Action goes outside. Snap suplex out there, 8/10 for the execution that time. Big dive by Machine. Posts Panther. Rolls him in. Cover gets two. Sunset flip gets two. Another AWFUL DDT by Machine that was so bad I can't tell if Panther blocked it. Bulldog from the top. Also looked bad. Cover gets two. Tombstone piledriver. Ref isn't happy. Why's that? Move banned? Panther wins the fall on DQ?

 

That seems like a horrible horrible finish for a mask match. Panther does a stretcher job here after the piledriver. Which is a nice way of getting the dangerousness of the move over but a poor way of ending a blood feud sort of match. Machine has to take his mask off now. Panther has been carried out. It's true he is Art Barr! I did dig the close ups of his face and him having to face the crowd. But losing the mask in that way seems really odd to me. Barr cuts a promo in Spanish.

 

Anyway, I thought Blue Panther looked fantastic on offense in this match and carried his end of the match well, but Love Machine / Barr was just so sloppy with those DDTs, they looked horrible. And it really damaged this one for me. The match was also pretty short. I think around 10 minutes for the match itself.

 

Blue Panther is a guy I'd like to see more of. I wonder if he had matches against Casas or Dr Wagner Jr. These are the three guys standing out so far.

 

**1/2

 

Rey Mysterio Jr vs. Juventud Guerrera (3/16/96)

 

Rey works the leg to start, but this is quickly jettisoned in favour of rope running. Some fancy exchanges here that I can't begin to describe. Outside the ring, back in the ring, hurricanrana by Rey, and a second off the top rope. Back outside. Sunset flip from the top by Rey. Springboard spin kick by Juventud. Tiger suplex takes first fall in 9:40.

 

Second fall is more of the same to start: hurricanrana so and moves from the top. Incredibly spot heavy so far. And a fifth (??) hurricanrana from the top gives Rey the second fall. 13 or so in. Again trope of quick reply short second fall.

 

Powerbomb by Rey. They do seem to be showing off an impressive range of moves here. Juventud with some time on top now. Teases that tiger suplex again, Rey struggles and escapes. We get a run in now, well it is 1996 after all ... Various heels sneak attack Rey on the outside, but he has some allies, brawling. Juventud decks the ref. Rey sneaks around and jumps on Juventud, but one of the baddies DDTs the ref. More run ins, more shenanigans, cavalry. Pier 6. Baby faces come out on top as always in these scenarios. Holy overbooked fuck finish.

 

Finish aside, the preceding 18 minutes or so of match w got did not do a lot for me. It's just too spotty. It's like something seems like it is about to go somewhere and they abandon it to do another hurricanrana or move from the top or springboard assault. I'd love for someone to sit down and try to talk me through the psychology of something like this, because to me it's just spot, spot, spot, spot, spot, trying to pop the crowd and a law of diminishing returns. The one morsel of storytelling we got is Juventud trying the tiger suplex for the second time and Rey getting smart to it after copping the first fall already. Some of the action was good here, but it just seemed like all flash and no substance.

 

***

 

At this point, I've lost faith in the DVDR Top 20 Lucha matches of the 90s and so I'm going to strike out doing targeted searches of Casas, Wagner Jr and Blue Panther.

[JerryvonKramer]

Parv- are you really expecting an internet message board post from 2004 to stand up as a source? i'm sure íd love "arn anderson fan" or whatever his fuckin name is, i'm sure he's open minded and chatty and cheerful in a way you could never once fuckin manage. you found one fuckin guy to support your racially based horseshit and you quote that here?

 

grow up son.

Please, what are you talking about? I just did a search for "Psychology in Lucha" and those were the first few things that came up on Google. Nothing to do with supporting my view and everything to do with the fact that other people have asked these same questions before and answers seem difficult to come by.

 

Race has zero part in any of these reviews. I don't really see where "racially-based horseshit" comes from. I am laying out opinions, reasons for them, asking for clarification. You are being hysterical.

[Matt D]

I've written up around 230 lucha matches on SC. Not sure if that would help or hurt at this stage.

[JerryvonKramer]

What would help most is just some quick hits for Casas, Blue Panther or Dr Wagner Jr. Those guys have shown the most potential for doing stuff I could get into. I'd prefer 90s or 00s stuff to any of their old man performances. Only because I'd prefer to get a grasp on prime material before post-peak.

[Matt D]

Every match on there is tagged by wrestler.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'll come back to this. Will get an hour of 80s Memphis in before I head out.

[Guest si oem]

Somebody chronically farts in church. Instead of dealing with the stink, the parishoners waft the smell into their noses and flick out their tongues, like a serpent would, to try and figure out what the flatulent fool had for breakfast. They spend the rest of the service endlessly debating whether or not passing gas was theologically acceptable or if it is a sin which requires grace and forgivess. Everybody goes home stinky and a little further away from god.

 

Deal with the fucking farter.

[GOTNW]

...............man what the fuck happened?

[JerryvonKramer]

Is that you James?

[goc]

Somebody chronically farts in church. Instead of dealing with the stink, the parishoners waft the smell into their noses and flick out their tongues, like a serpent would, to try and figure out what the flatulent fool had for breakfast. They spend the rest of the service endlessly debating whether or not passing gas was theologically acceptable or if it is a sin which requires grace and forgivess. Everybody goes home stinky and a little further away from god.

 

Deal with the fucking farter.

Didn't you decide you were going to quit the board anyway? Why are you back just to hate on Parv? He was your biggest fan!

[Guest si oem]

I didn't quit shit. Goodhelmet and Loss discounted my lived experiences. So I happily and quietly left their site without a word. I got called unemployed and untruthful for trying to help with the gwe project. So with not a fuckin ounce of drama I left.

 

I came back because enough was enough. Nobody was a fan of mine. Never wanted fans. Just want to call a tumor a tumor.

[goc]

I didn't quit shit. Goodhelmet and Loss discounted my lived experiences. So I happily and quietly left their site without a word. I got called unemployed and untruthful for trying to help with the gwe project. So with not a fuckin ounce of drama I left.

 

I came back because enough was enough. Nobody was a fan of mine. Never wanted fans. Just want to call a tumor a tumor.

Editing out all of your posts seem pretty fucking dramatic to me. I enjoyed the Taima.TV thing but you seem like a giant baby.

[conker8]

You should try watching El Satanico.

From what I read, you stop the Lucha 80's set just before his best year. His 1989 year is also a good year.

[elliott]

You could have spent some time outlining how the assortment of dives and high spots I saw in those matches last night count as psychology or coherent storytelling or conform to any of the other usual standards we apply to wrestling matches. Were the criticisms I made unwarranted? If so, why?

 

In the meantime, more Lucha to come.

 

EDIT: I've been searching online for more on this and it's not like the perception I'm articulating doesn't exist.

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=056502

 

Some dude called "Arn Anderson Fan" back in 2004 even went as far as to say that psychology and lucha are contradictory terms.

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/38xffh/fans_of_lucha_what_are_some_things_a_new_fan/

 

 

 

When watching matches suspend disbelief more than you already do while watching wrestling and try not to think about the match quality with logic, as the psychology of most lucha matches are all over the place. (unlike the american or japanese styles) Just because they do things that seem out of place doesn't mean it isn't a good match, that is what the crowds in Mexico pop for and they matter more then you do.

I'm mean there's a guy trying to get other people into Lucha flat-out saying "forget psychology and logic" when you watch this stuff.

 

http://www.mlw.com/clubhouse/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26

 

I'm sorry if I'm misquoting konnan here but pretty sure he mentioned in a previous podcast with Lucha libre that there really isn't match psychology like American wrestling, lucha is kind of all about wooing the audience with high spots and cool moves which is what makes it good and different to other styles. Sorry I'm probably butchering what he said.

If any of this stuff were ever explained properly to us, I'm sure it would be easier for those of us who really struggle hard to "get" Lucha to get into it.

 

 

Pick any stupid argument and you can find stupid people on the internet advancing it. Doesn't make it any less stupid.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/30977-your-34-matches/?p=5669539

Can you talk about the clear lack of psychology in MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana that you rated 5 stars in spite of being completely lost by the style?

[Matt D]

MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana IS exceptional, but it's also the skeleton key that unlocks almost all more traditional lucha.

[Poneglyph]

I don't think it's fair to say that lucha libre doesn't have any psychology just because it doesn't have the same psychology as American wrestling.

 

Lucha is not about Good vs. Evil but about the clash of styles, técnicos vs. rudos. The difference is not as evident now as it was in the 80s, but everything is worked around the dichotomy between the two philosophies and which one is defining the match at any given time. You are not going to see limbwork or a FIP section. Técnicos dominanting the match with their superior ability and rudos trying to cut them off cheating, swarming the ring or brawling give every match a basis of psychology.

 

One thing Matt D has written about is the payoff of things that were set up early in the match, which is a point that i really like. The best example would be a move finishing the first fall and then being reversed in the third.

 

The 3-fall structure also creates a sense of evolving strategy - for example, when a wrestler raises the pace in the second fall after losing the first because he needs to tie the match quickly. It's probably never intentional, but authorial intent is probably the thing I give less importance to when I watch wrestling. O a movie, or read a book, for that matter.

 

I believe the language barrier hurts the perception of lucha. Even with the 8/16 Chilanga Mask show, which had great reviews, no one talked about about the stories Panther vs. Trauma II or Guerrero/Hechicero vs. Caifán/Avisman were built around, which were set up in the video packages - like T2 wanting to impress Panther after he said he hadn't ever heard the name of the Traumas, and thus trying complex submissions and Panther's own armbar.

[goc]

Tecnicos vs. rudos is still pretty much good vs evil though. The clearly defined "good guy vs bad guy" narrative is why I got into lucha way more than I ever did with puro where it's more about Super Tough Fighting Spirit Guy 1 vs. Super Tough Fighting Spirit Guy 2.

[elliott]

What is important to keep in mind is that "different psychology" does not mean "no psychology." Criticisms like

 

"Or is it more or less just sitting there dazzled by the bright lights of a fireworks display for twenty minutes before coming out of a coma wondering what the hell you've just seen?"

 

jump off the screen as a very lazy late 90s Wrestlingclassics criticism of Lucha Libre steeped in ignorance. There is more than enough lucha footage out there that people can watch and see that "Lucha" is much more than dives and dazzling highspots (some of it you have watched and rated highly so I don't understand why you're suddenly pretending like you are completely in the dark).

 

Also, the DVDVR 90s Lucha list isn't really a list that holds up (nor should it) as dives and highspots were more what people were looking for back then so it stands to reason that list would contain a lot more fast paced highspotty matches. If that poll was remade today there wouldn't be twice as much Juventud Guerrera as there is El Dandy.

[JerryvonKramer]

Also, the DVDVR 90s Lucha list isn't really a list that holds up (nor should it) as dives and highspots were more what people were looking for back then so it stands to reason that list would contain a lot more fast paced highspotty matches. If that poll was remade today there wouldn't be twice as much Juventud Guerrera as there is El Dandy.

This is really all that needed to be said, since I had a suspicion this might be the case. As you've pointed out I've shown certain lucha matches love in the past, but these have been more the expection that proves the rule to date.

 

I do hope you can see that if my mind was completely closed off, I simply wouldn't be bothering to persevere.

 

Out of interest, do you agree with me that the matches I reviewed last night and today lack psychology?

[elliott]

I'll need to rewatch them to be fair.

 

My concern was the blanket criticism. So I appreciate that you don't see the entire style that way. If you're interested in continuing with 90s lucha, I would offer up OJ's list here

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-77-20-best-lucha-matches-of-the-90s/

 

It isn't definitive at all and there are some pretty obvious omissions, but I think it will be a better jumping off point for the stuff you like than the 90s DVDVR list.

[ohtani's jacket]

The lucha you watched was mostly from AAA. AAA looked to up the tempo and workrate of its matches in what I think was a fairly deliberate attempt to distinguish itself from the more stodgy and traditional CMLL. It did big business in its first few years and got plenty of coverage in the Observer. When older Wrestling Classics posts talk about lucha, they're really talking about that period of AAA and how it compared with juniors wrestling and the WCW cruiserweight division. It's easy to see why negative attitudes existed toward lucha. It's strange looking compared to juniors wrestling. The impression I get is that most people expected to see a juniors match transposed into a different setting and were confused by what they saw. Even Parv is warmer to the luchadores who traveled to Japan and incorporated some of that juniors influence into their work like Casas and Wagner. But AAA is one promotion, and the mid-90s is an isolated period from that company's history. Even at the time, there were differences between what the young generation were doing and what the older UWA and EMLL workers brought to the table (a lot of which wasn't pimped at the time because lucha brawling was viewed as poor.) I agree with elliot that it's not really fair to single out a Rey Mysterio Jr trios as "lucha." It would be like watching a Great Sasuke match and broadly calling that "Japanese wrestling" when in reality both countries' wrestling is multi-faceted.

 

But to put it in a nutshell, no the matches you watched don't have great psychology. And yes, lucha has psychology. But it's not like All Japan or the NWA touring champ style, and I can't imagine any true fan who would want it to be.