Jump to content
Pro Wrestling Only
JerryvonKramer

JvK's Six-Factor Model for GWE rankings [BIGLAV]

Recommended Posts

Rick Rude
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 = 7
Intangibles 7
Great matches 5
Length of Peak 89-92 = 3 years = 2
Ability to work different styles / roles 0
Variety 3

+ 1 ability to work gimmick matches
+ 1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWCW, JCP / WCW, WWF, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

1. Rock n Rolls, 2. Wahoo McDaniel, 4. Jake Roberts 5. Ultimate Warrior, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Dustin Rhodes, 8. Sting, 9. Chono

Variety rating = 9 opponents = 4


27

Jack Brisco
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for selling of holds) = 9
Intangibles 2
Great matches 6
Length of Peak 71-83 = 12 years = 7
Ability to work different styles / roles 2
Variety 5

+ 1 ability to work heel
+ 1 ability to work tags
+ 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace
+ 1 ability to work as traveling champion
+ 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 7

1. Dory Funk Jr, 2. Baba, 3. Terry Funk, 4. Jumbo, 5. Inoki, 6. Bill Watts, 7. Harley Race, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Paul Jones, 10. Ric Flair, 11. Roddy Piper, 12. David von Erich, 13. Bob Orton Jr (w/ Valiant / Weaver), 14. Adonis / Murdoch

Variety rating = 14 opponents = 7

38

Harley Race
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8
Intangibles 3
Great matches 6
Length of Peak 73-84 = 11 years = 7
Ability to work different styles / roles 1
Variety 6

+ 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace
+ 1 abiltiy to work as travelling champion
+ 1 ability to work tags
+ 3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

1. Jack Brisco, 2. Terry Funk, 3. Giant Baba, 4. Jumbo, 5. Ric Flair, 6. Kerry von Erich, 7. Ted DiBiase, 8. Mil Mascaras, 9. Rick Martel, 10. Hulk Hogan, 11. Jerry Lawler, 12. David von Erich

Variety = 12 opponents = 6

36

Giant Baba
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5
Intangibles 5
Great matches 8
Length of Peak 69-79 = 10 years = 6
Ability to work different styles / roles 1
Variety 7

+ 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace
+ 1 ability to work tags

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

1. Dory Funk Jr., 2. Terry Funk, 3. Jack Brisco, 4. Billy Robinson, 5. Harley Race, 6. Bruno Sammartino, 7. Mil Mascaras / Dos Caras, 8. Fritz von Erich, 9. The Sheik, 10. Stan Hansen, 11. Abdullah the Butcher, 12. The Destroyer, 13. Verne Gagne, 14. Gene Kiniski, 15. Hans Schmidt

Variety = 15 opponents = 7

33

The Sheik
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for mastery of foreign object) = 4
Intangibles 6
Great matches 2
Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0
Ability to work different styles / roles 0
Variety 4

+ 1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace
+ 1 ability to work technical matches
+ 3 ability to get over in mulitple markets (every territory, Japan, ECW)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Mark Lewin, 2. Dory Funk Jr., 3. Terry Funk, 4. Abdullah the Butcher, 5. Sailor Art Thomas / Dick the Bruiser, 6. Jackie Fargo, 7. Giant Baba, 8. Jumbo, 9. Duk / Oki, 10. Robinson / Hoffman, 11. Ricky Steamboat

Variety = 11 opponents = 5

22

Billy Robinson
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for innovation) = 10
Intangibles 3
Great matches 8
Length of Peak 70-80 = 10 years = 6
Ability to work different styles / roles 1
Variety 6

+ 1 ability to work tags
+ 1 ability to brawl
+ 2 ability to get over in multiple markets (UK, AWA, Montreal, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

1. Inoki, 2. Baba, 3. Jumbo, 4. Dory Funk Jr, 5. Terry Funk, 6. Nick Bockwinkel, 7. Verne Gagne, 8. Ray Stevens

Variety = 8 opponents = 4


35

Lex Luger
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5
Intangibles 4
Great matches 3
Length of Peak 88-91 = 3 years = 2
Ability to work different styles / roles 4
Variety 3

+ 1 ability to work heel
+ 1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches
+ 1 ability to work tags
+ 1 ability to get over in muliple markets (Florida, JCP / WCW, WWF)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

1. Ric Flair, 2. Sting, 3. Arn / Tully, 4. Barry windham, 5. Bret Hart, 6. Ricky Steamboat, 7. Tommy Rich, 8. Great muta, 9. Pillman, 10. The Steiners, 11. Hulk Hogan

Variety = 11 opponents = 5

23

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I appreciate what it "looks like" but I do think in this case appearances can be deceptive. People see numbers and "math" and assume that something terrible must be going on. But really this is not so far away from the star ratings people habitually throw out. Or from the process of ranking which people have done in every DVDR project. This is just a tiny bit more granular.

 

For me, personally, it has made things super clear in terms both of what I'm looking for and how strong certain guys are in certain things. But I also get that a lot of people will take one look at it and have the knee jerk reaction of hating it. That's fine.

 

I would say too that if people have particular hang ups with using numericals, you could ask the same six questions of any candidate and without affixing any ratings. This guy did it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/31119-trish-stratus/?p=5715738

 

And used like that it is a bit more like Gordy list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you boil it down it's a formula or a system . Just like people have formulas to play black jack . I appreciate how well thought out it is. It still doesn't give your ballot more validity . We all lack holes on our viewing. That and what people value in their wrestling to me is what is going to make a ballot the most valid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm reworking Bret, rating seems a bit off, just giving him from 85 for longevity and +1 for intangibles, 4 was too low.

Bret Hart
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 3/3 +1 (for execution) = 9
Intangibles 5
Great matches 7
Length of Peak (85-97) = 12 years = 7

+1 ability to work heel
+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to carry promotion / work as ace
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Calgary, WWF, WCW)
+1 ability to work gimmick matches

Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 5

1. Tiger Mask, 2. British Bulldogs, 3. Demolition, 4. Brainbusters, 5. Ted DiBiase, 6. Mr. Perfect, 7. Roddy Piper, 8. Jerry Lawler, 9. Owen Hart, 10. Shawn Michaels, 11. Steve Austin, 12. Benoit, 13. Islanders, 14. Backlund, 15. Steamboat, 16. 123 Kid, 17. Undertaker, 18. Diesel

Variety = 18 opponents = 9

42

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Backlund is an oversight for sure. I've included him and that gives him a plus one. I don't like that match as much as other people, but taking the whole angle into account, it passes the Virgil test.

 

Bulldog is in there as one of the Bulldogs.

 

The others do not make my "memorable" criteria. Yokozuna might be a borderline case.

 

The matches with Taker and Diesel do not amount to more than "he worked them" for me. Taker match is not memorable for any reason but the finish and title win. I mean it is actively boring for long stretches before that. I don't think Bret is a miracle worker in that way. Others here value the fact he changed his game plan vs. Big men, but 1) I'm not sure how true that is, still aims for sharpshooter basically from what I can see and 2) even if it is, I don't know if a tiny bit of basic common sense in strategy like that deserves any points. Most guys adjusted to face big men. Hogan did.

 

The criteria for that category is "memorable". To me, Bret's memorable stuff down that 94-7 run is Owen, Austin, Michaels.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Backlund match I was referring to was the Superstars match not the Survivor Series one.

 

Davey Boy Smith being there as one of the Bulldogs makes no sense whatsoever. It's not my criteria , but I'd list him twice.

 

I think you're referring to the Diesel title change not any title change with Undertaker. To me Survivor Series '95 was the epitome of "memorable" and that wasn't their only memorable match together. I don't really get where you're coming from on this when you load up your favorites with memorable opponents.

 

The 123 Kid RAW match isn't memorable? I'd warrant it's more memorable than Bret's bouts with DiBiase. What's he doing there? What about the jdw favourite against Savage? The Steamboat match people love?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed with OJ on Bret's opponents. Bret has himself said his matches with Taker are some of his favourites. And the match with Waltman might be the most famous Raw match of the early years.

I would like to see Parv rate the Attitude main-eventers. I know he dislikes the era, so he won't be nearly as high on Austin and Rock as I am. The only ones I would argue is if Austin and Rock do not get a 10 in intangibles. Hunter might as well get a zero in that. His lack of charisma compared to the level of his push is staggering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Backlund match I was referring to was the Superstars match not the Survivor Series one.

Davey Boy Smith being there as one of the Bulldogs makes no sense whatsoever. It's not my criteria , but I'd list him twice.

I think you're referring to the Diesel title change not any title change with Undertaker. To me Survivor Series '95 was the epitome of "memorable" and that wasn't their only memorable match together. I don't really get where you're coming from on this when you load up your favorites with memorable opponents.

The 123 Kid RAW match isn't memorable? I'd warrant it's more memorable than Bret's bouts with DiBiase. What's he doing there? What about the jdw favourite against Savage? The Steamboat match people love?

The DiBiase bout is the one from Odessa in 89. When I first came online it was somewhat hyped, and I'd be surprised, for example, if Will and he crew left it off the DVDR 150 set. I'm pretty sure it was on the original set.

 

In fact, I just looked it up and it finished #17 in the voting.

 

Steamboat match is one that could be included. Forgot about that one for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm high on the Backlund MSG match. And it's a huge testament to Bret that he has it one night away from Survivor Series where he has the Bigelow and Hennig matches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It turns out Bret's original low-seeming score was because I can't add up.

 

MoS, I do not dislike the Attitude era, I have fond memories of it and much prefer it to both the 94-5 time frame and the Smackdown Six era. I just haven't had a strong desire to revisit that stuff for whatever reason. And I think a lot of people are like that.

 

Austin should do pretty well. Rock might struggle but both are perfect 10s for intangibles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, for some reason my maths was wrong on Bret and his real score is 40, not 35. Which currently puts him pretty high. Despite OJ's campaigning, he's not getting those matches vs. Kid, Taker and Diesel.

I'm not a Bret fan but you're selling his case short if you don't include those matches. His match with Taker from the England ppv in '97 was Taker's first great match. The Diesel matches were probably Nash's best singles outings, along with the one HBK match. And the 1-2-3 Kid match was a longtime option for best Raw match ever. If the point of the rating is to measure notable work against a range of opponents, I don't see how you ignore those. Hell, I might throw in Hakushi as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's not necessarily that high. I wouldn't list Fujinami, the Brain Busters, the Islanders, Lawler or Michaels. I'm not sure which Fujinami match you're referring to. Bret did work well with a large variety of opponents in the WWF, though.. It's a strength of his. I forgot about the Savage match too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bret didn't have a memorable match with Michaels? Come on now. Lawler stuff was one of the few shining lights of 93.

 

Brainbusters match is one of the highlights of late 80s WWF, and Islanders stuff has been given some new light by Kelly and Marty on tag teams back again podcast.

 

My mistake on Fujinami, it should be Tiger Mask and is from 1982 and I reviewed it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5697441

 

I recall Bret having a pretty good showing in New Japan and must have had a mental slip (NJ 82 = Fujinami). He was one of Tiger Mask's better opponents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tully Blanchard
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for slingshot suplex) = 8
Intangibles 7
Great matches 6
Length of Peak 85-89 = 4 years = 3

+1 ability to work babyface
+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to work as company ace
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Southwest, JCP, WWF)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Magnum TA, 2. Dusty, 3. Steamboat, 4. Luger / Windham, 5. Hart Foundation, 6. Rockers, 7. Road Warriors, 8. Rock n Roll Express, 9. Garvin, 10. Wahoo

Variety = 10 opponents = 5

34

Ron Garvin
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for being a such a stiff bastard) = 7
Intangibles 2
Great matches 5
Length of Peak 82-87 = 5 years = 3

+1 ability to work heel
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to work technical matches
+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (ICW, Canada, JCP, WWF)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Lanny Poffo, 2. Savage, 3. Flair, 4. Valentine, 5. Tully, 6. Midnight Express, 7. Rougeaus

Variety = 7 opponents = 3

25

Wahoo McDaniel
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 2/3 (+1 for CHOPS) = 6
Intangibles 4
Great matches 4
Length of Peak 74-86 = 12 years = 7

+1 ability to work heel
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to work tags
+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Flair, 2. Bockwinkel, 3. Ernie Ladd, 4. Johnny Valentine, 5. Greg Valentine, 6. Magnum TA, 7. Tully

Variety = 7 opponents = 3

29

Ricky Steamboat
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for arm drag) = 9
Intangibles 4
Great matches 9
Length of Peak 78-94 = 16 years = 9

+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to work brawls
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, Japan, WWF)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

1. Flair, 2. Tully, 3. The Sheik, 4. Arn / Larry, 5. Rude, 6. Slaughter / Kernodle, 7. The Funks, 8. Savage, 9. Bret, 10. Austin / Pillman, 11. Luger, 12. Windham, 13. Vader, 14. Briscos, 15. Orton Jr., 16. Jake, 17. Regal, 18. Jericho

Variety = 18 opponents = 9

49

Barry Windham
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for float-over suplex) = 10
Intangibles 3
Great matches 6
Length of Peak 85-93 = 8 years = 5

+1 ability to work heel
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, JCP, WWF)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

1. Flair, 2. Luger, 3. Arn, 4. Tully, 5. Pillman, 6. Sting / Steiners, 7. Murdoch, 8. Midnight Express, 8. Steamboat, 9. 2 Cold Scorpio, 10. Regal

Variety = 10 opponents = 5

33

Ivan Koloff
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6
Intangibles 4
Great matches 2
Length of Peak 69-85 = 16 years = 9

+ 1 ability to work gimmick matches
+1 ability to work tags
+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (every territory, WWF, Japan)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Bruno, 2. Dusty, 3. Rock n Rolls, 4. Backlund, 5. Paul Orndorff, 6. Buzz Sawyer, 7. Pedro

Variety = 7 opponents = 3

29

Vader
Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 for stiffness) = 7
Intangibles 6
Great matches 7
Length of Peak 86-00= 14 years = 8

+1 ability to work shoot style
+1 ability to work gimmick matches
+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WCW, Japan, Mexico, WWF, Europe)

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

1. Hansen, 2. Inoki, 3. Wanz, 4. Sting, 5. Cactus Jack, 6. Flair, 7. Hashimoto, 8. Hase / Mutoh, 9. Dustin, 10. Owen Hart, 11. Steamboat, 12. Michaels, 13. Chono, 14. Bossman, 15. Kobashi, 16. Taue, 17. Akiyama, 18. Misawa, 19. Tamura

Variety = 19 opponents = 10

43

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with those who say Bret's case needs to include the 1-2-3 Kid and Nash matches. However, I think Great Matches should probably also be his weakest category -- not because he doesn't have plenty of them, but because there were also so many cases where matches should have been better than they were. Is that even a factor there? I don't know where to factor in guys who took lots of nights off, but that seems to be the only category here where it makes sense. And is that something you care about? I do consider it a weakness if a guy can't put together a strong 10-minute throwaway TV match with a guy with whom he had no ongoing rivalry. There are one-off matches with Vader, Goldust, Helmsley, Mankind, Pritchard, Crush and others that just didn't hit the mark. There's also the Hennig series in '89, which I think is probably worth a closer look at some point since they had lots of long matches that made tape. The matches with Martel didn't click at all despite both of them being really good. Bret is a mixed bag when it comes to his resume, but where does that factor in as part of this formula?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bret didn't have a memorable match with Michaels? Come on now. Lawler stuff was one of the few shining lights of 93.

 

Brainbusters match is one of the highlights of late 80s WWF, and Islanders stuff has been given some new light by Kelly and Marty on tag teams back again podcast.

 

My mistake on Fujinami, it should be Tiger Mask and is from 1982 and I reviewed it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5697441

 

I recall Bret having a pretty good showing in New Japan and must have had a mental slip (NJ 82 = Fujinami). He was one of Tiger Mask's better opponents.

 

Considering Bret and Shawn didn't work that well together, I don't see how it should be a point in Bret's favour for versatility. The Lawler match in '93 involved Doink whom you haven't listed and is offset by how awful their "Kiss My Foot" match was. The Brain Busters match was good, but a throw away bout and not a series like Brain Busters vs. The Rockers and not really proof that Bret matched up particularly well with Arn and Tully. There may be some underrated Islanders stuff out there, but with all due respect to Kelly and Martin a single podcast is not really a huge platform for memorable matches. Likewise, I don't think Bret vs. Tiger Mask is a well-remembered match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×