Ricky Jackson Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Loss suggested this topic in the Hogan Mania IX thread and it really struck me as something cool to discuss. I moved the year back to 1991 because I think that is the year when a lot of the themes that would dominate the period develop, eg. the steroid scandal comes to the public's attention, WCW business plunges, general interest in pro wrestling in greater pop culture waned noticeably during the year, etc. For me, I was a fan during this whole period, funny enough getting into wrestling again in late 91 after being mostly off it since mid 89. I have a lot of fond memories of this time that I'll get into at a later date. It truly was the most dire time for pro wrestling in my lifetime, business wise, relevancy wise, and quality of gimmicks wise. 2015 is nowhere near as bad. At the same time there was a lot of good, for me the rise of Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels in WWF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I always think of the Kevin Nash "potholes" promo in 1997 where he made shoot comments toward the old guys for leaving wrestling in such a down state. It begs the question -- should wrestlers feel any sense of responsibility to leave the business in better shape than they found it, or is that idealistic horseshit? I think there is an argument about the stars of the 80s raping and pillaging whatever companies were left for all they were worth, then leaving all of wrestling in a funk as a result. Of course, the same thing happened again at the turn of the century, with Nash doing everything he accused his predecessors of doing. I am probably not phrasing that question properly, because I'm making it sound like as an ethical question, or something about doing jobs for the next generation on the way out. That's not my intent. I don't know that such a thing would have made a difference here, as the WWF empire was built on steroids and that wasn't sustainable. But I do think we have a tendency to only look at the good when thinking about a wrestler's legacy. Hogan's personal conduct did create a downturn for the WWF because of the damage to wrestling's image, just as Flair playing hardball on the way out of WCW made an already-struggling company hit rock bottom. I think it's a mistake to not consider that a vital part of each guy's legacy. As much as the Attitude Era gets credit for turning wrestling around, I think the true culprit was Eric Bischoff and more specifically the concept of Monday Nitro. I also think one aspect that gets overlooked that will make that era sort of impossible to recreate is that they had both a new generation of stars and an older generation of guys that people remembered fondly who were still young enough to be featured as top stars. The combination of fans lured in by something that truly felt like part of the cultural zeitgeist of the time and fans who gave up on wrestling 5-10 years earlier returning to see their favorites presented in a fresh way created an era that probably can't be duplicated. Say what you will about Bischoff, and I've said plenty, but there is no one like him in wrestling now. The whole thing wouldn't have worked had he been an establishment figure from the previous era. He wasn't ideologically married to ideas from the 1980s like Vince couldn't help but be, and ideas like signing talent from all over the world are not the sort of thing that would have occurred to someone too entrenched in what was. Wrestling in Japan and Mexico was on fire at the time -- in Mexico because of the popularity of Konnan and Vampiro and the subsequent formation of AAA, and in Japan because they did a great job building the next generation of stars in All Japan and New Japan. On top of that, wrestling was strong enough that Atsushi Onita could draw big crowds to outdoor shows with no television to promote the card and the interpromotional feuds created a strong period for Joshi. I don't particuarly enjoy most ECW now, but ECW did a great job of drawing influence from all over the world and presenting their interpretation of it to an American audience. But yeah ... RAW ran some lousy-looking venues to dead crowds for a few years there. While I do think it's a very interesting time for the WWF aesthetically because Vince was so desperate to make something work and less attached to one way of doing things, it's probably a time he'd rightfully hate to relive. The cool part was seeing Vince do stuff antithetical to the way he normally did business. In WCW, they were in a tough spot because their entire fanbase was the hardcores. They needed to make changes to grow their audience, but the hardcores rejected anything that wasn't Flair Flair Flair. And there weren't nearly enough of those types to support a national wrestling troupe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 1991 is Vince and Pat Patterson at their most innovative, daring and "dark" testing the waters with several pretty risqué and groundbreaking angles and feuds including the Slaughter heel turn, Virgil's face turn (watch those skits where DiBiase has Virgil doing humiliating tasks again, dark as fuck). Jake Roberts's stuff with Damian biting Savage and the intense promos going into This Tuesday in Texas, birth of the Undertaker, fucking RIC FLAIR turning up and cutting awesome promos on Hogan, Savage retirement angle, Shawn Michaels turning heel on Marty Jannetty (okay this happened Jan 92, but I'd count it) -- all in all in terms of "creative" it is a super duper underrated year for WWF. This direction was brought to an abrupt end by the steroid deal and 1992 is marred by ramped up levels of cartooniness creeping into the product more and more, as Vince stops taking risks and starts to play it safe more. Still we get a lot of fun stuff, great Rumble, Flair vs. Savage, the little talked about but really fun Rick Martel vs. Shawn Michaels feud, debut of Razor Ramon, Yokozuna killing people with his butt, while it didn't have the big emotional hits of 91, 92 still had some decent stuff going on. And then there was also Nailz. Then 1993 is a real transition year for WWF. A lot of the 80s mainstays -- Hogan, DiBiase, Tito, Valentine, Heenan, Okerlund ... Mooney -- are done by the end of it, with Savage to follow not long after. The Luger experiment failed, Bob Backlund turned up looking like he'd just stepped out of 1983 ... And then there was also Ludwig Borga. But it wasn't all bad. Raw debuted and brought with it some good TV. A promising youngster called 123 Kid upset Razor Ramon. The Steiner Brothers came to the WWF. And IRS and Ted DiBiase made a young JvK cheer with glee as they smashed in Brutus Beefcake's face with a steel briefcase. Doink the evil clown terrorised kids and tormented Pineapple Crush. And Jerry Lawler took real exception to Bret Hart winning the King of the Ring. It might not have been as great as 91 or even 92, and clearly things were sliding, but there was still things to hang your hat on in 93. Still reasons to watch. 1994 feels like a different world in a lot of ways. The big name stars of the 80s who were filling out cards for years were now replaced with guys like Bart Gunn and Pierre the Quebecer. Doink, previously a cool bad guy was now an irritating babyface with a legion of clown midgets and doubles. King Kong Bundy made a comeback. Fucking Nikolai Volkoff made a comeback. The gimmicks got more and more horrendous: Adam Bomb, Men on a Mission, Sparky Plugg, a fake Undertaker, fucking Kwang, Duke the Dumpster. As a youngster this was when my interest in wrestling was rapidly being drained. And to cap it all off, Ted DiBiase's jackets were now cheap and nasty looking, a far cry from the awesomeness of his swank white number from 1993. The only positives to draw from 1994 come in the form of Bret Hart being such a great wrestler, and his brother Owen emerging as a major player. From a business standpoint, I think you can see Vince going "back to basics" with Bret as champ in 94. Retreat to the core WWF markets. More MSG and Philly shows. He booked Bret a bit like his dad booked Backlund and they returned to many of the same core loops at that time. From that point of view 94 is "interesting". By 1995, the product is at an all time low. Even the promise of a great match from Bret Hart at the top of the card is diminished by the fact that Diesel was the champion. The gimmicks get even worse ... Isaac Yankem, Mantaur ... This is the worst the WWF would ever be. Barry Horowitz had a singles push. Dory Funk Jr was a surprise entrant at the Royal Rumble at the age of 54. Mabel won the King of the Ring. A terrible year, during which my fandom was probably at its lowest ever point. It was virtually impossible to care about what was going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I don't think there necessarily has to be an obligation for older guys to job for the newcomers, but you can see on early 80s WWF house shows guys like Pedro Morales and Tony Garea putting guys over. It has to be something done organically, like a gradual descent down the card, rather than how WWE today brings in older guys to get one or two nostalgia pops then throws them to the wolves. Ironically it seems like the guy who's seemingly suited to do this now is John Cena, since his US Open Challenge matches let several guys shine who might not have gotten the chance otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Greg Valentine actually returned to the WWF at the end of 1993, he was one of the hooded knights in the match against Bret Hart's team if I recall. Then he showed up briefly again for the Royal Rumble the following January. He left at the beginning of '92 and spent a good deal of time in WCW that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I view that time period as Vince turning the dial down and then back up in terms of characters. The 80's had larger-than-life superheros, where as the 90's started bringing us more guys with day-to-day jobs and personalities a person would encounter in his/her everyday life. WWE slowly began turning up the dial with characters like Diesel, Razor, Hart, and Michaels without actually reaching that 80's area of pure graphic novel/sci-fi absurdity. Sure you had your Papa Shango's and Max Moon's, but those became the exception and not the rule. I believe this was done in part to not make the Superstars TOO attractive to WCW as it was clear what type of wrestlers WCW was looking to poach. This time was also perhaps Vince's first ( subconscious) foray into making people stars but not TOO big of stars with the larger-than-life personalities as that was a proven commodity for the past decade and brought him bigger success than his father. It was also clear during that period that the fans began taking a shit on some of the more egdy-yet-still-cartoonish personalities (Hogan being the main example) and so a step or two in the opposite direction was needed for ensured longevity. If Vince completely ignored the lessons of the early 90's (steroids, drop off in Hogan's popularity, etc.) and fashioned the New Generation purely off of the 80's Hulkamania formula, what would have that class of guys look like and how would that have impacted business? People shit on parts of early 90's WWF (and rightfully so), but would going the other (more proven) way have resulted in better business? The company is at such a stable point right now that it can (and has) no-sold a ton of recent occurrences. Re: Leaving the business in good shape That's really up to the booker(s)/promoter(s)/owner(s) and not the wrestlers. Everything starts that the top. At any point-in-time, Vince could have called bullshit on anything and everything HBK was doing in the locker room and yet didn't. Vince could have given the guys healthcare, 401K, etc., but chose not to. The WWE and WCW could have stopped being marks and preaching the 'We aren't pussies like other sports, we take no days off!' stuff and actually had 'seasons' to lessen the addiction/substance abuse problems the performers were developing. Doing these (and other things) would have been good for the company, the company image, and the boys in the long run. At the end of the day Kevin Nash is just a guy collecting the check and making suggestions backstage. He is not the guy at the top of the ivory tower making all the parts move. When I think of modern WWE and some of its choices, I can't help but to think of this quote from Sheikh Rashid bin Saeed Al Maktoum in which he said "My grandfather rode a camel, my father rode a camel, I drive a Mercedes, my son drives a Land Rover, his son will drive a Land Rover, but his son will ride a camel." One day this independent contractor stuff is going to be challenged and a union will form and WWE will be forced to change its business model and the fallout from all of that will be both amazing and incredibility sad to see as I do not see the powers that be going quietly into the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Anything he would have done would not have been enough. It was really down to someone like Austin or Rock to drop in their lap for something to really happen. It was individual personalities that connected with the audience that began the long road to victory over WCW and pop-culture relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Greg Valentine actually returned to the WWF at the end of 1993, he was one of the hooded knights in the match against Bret Hart's team if I recall. Then he showed up briefly again for the Royal Rumble the following January. He left at the beginning of '92 and spent a good deal of time in WCW that year. You know it's funny, the fact he was one of the knights and his 92 WCW run flashed through my mind as I was writing that, but the overall point was the same: the backbone of the roster had really changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 1991 is Vince and Pat Patterson at their most innovative, daring and "dark" testing the waters with several pretty risqué and groundbreaking angles and feuds including the Slaughter heel turn, Virgil's face turn (watch those skits where DiBiase has Virgil doing humiliating tasks again, dark as fuck). Jake Roberts's stuff with Damian biting Savage and the intense promos going into This Tuesday in Texas, birth of the Undertaker, fucking RIC FLAIR turning up and cutting awesome promos on Hogan, Savage retirement angle, Shawn Michaels turning heel on Marty Jannetty (okay this happened Jan 92, but I'd count it) -- all in all in terms of "creative" it is a super duper underrated year for WWF. Also for the "it was 1992" list, but check out the 2:00 minute mark of this: which is pretty damn dark for the time period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Also, Jake Roberts treatment of Liz in 1991 was far worse than what he did to Savage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Following Contest Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I was the perfect demo for Hulkamania. I was 7 when WrestleMania 3 happened. Hook, line sinker, I was in from then until probably mid-late 1992 when My interest began to wane. - I always loved Paul Heyman's way of putting it: wrestling was still hairbands even in the age of Nirvana. It just wasn't as exciting, important feeling or cool as it was. - The crowds seemed dead (canned heat a HUGE part of that), the characters seemed lame, and so many in my key Hulkamania demo were beginning to find competitive sports, girls and music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 I vividly remember the image of the sword piercing the ring canvas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Following Contest Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 See, no disrespect, but that Taker-Nord stuff was to me exactly the goofball, ridiculous, over the top junk that was so far from cool. That's exactly why I think the period was losing viewers. I want serious, not soap opera. That was soap opera at its worst IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRH Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 1991 is Vince and Pat Patterson at their most innovative, daring and "dark" testing the waters with several pretty risqué and groundbreaking angles and feuds including the Slaughter heel turn, Virgil's face turn (watch those skits where DiBiase has Virgil doing humiliating tasks again, dark as fuck). Jake Roberts's stuff with Damian biting Savage and the intense promos going into This Tuesday in Texas, birth of the Undertaker, fucking RIC FLAIR turning up and cutting awesome promos on Hogan, Savage retirement angle, Shawn Michaels turning heel on Marty Jannetty (okay this happened Jan 92, but I'd count it) -- all in all in terms of "creative" it is a super duper underrated year for WWF. Also for the "it was 1992" list, but check out the 2:00 minute mark of this: which is pretty damn dark for the time period. i Thought the Nailz Beatdown of Bossman was pretty intense as well. Not much talk about the state of WCW in this thread. It seemed that WCW at this time period was a weird mixture of serious wrestling and ultra-campy gimmicks (even the Bill Watts era still had Vinnie Vegas, Super Invader, Scotty Flamingo, Slazenger and Pierce, and that Tom Zenk/Johnny Gunn vignette). Thngs started changing when the luchadors and Guerrero, Malenko, and Benoit came in, but the shift wouldnt be complete until the debut of the NWO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 At the start of 91 you have Memphis and Dallas still hanging in there, PNW about to go out of business and Smoky Mountain about to start up. By the end of 96 Memphis is the only one left of the 4 and they are hanging on by a thread. We're down to 3 basically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'll just throw in some rambling ECW thoughts as they become relevant to the big picture at the end of this window. I have no real desire to revisit ECW's wrestling now, but in those halcyon VHS TAPE TRADING days when I was 16-20 or so, it did definitely appeal. I think people have become almost reluctant to give ECW credit for having a great 1995/96, but they really were presenting a product that was totally, completely different from the big two in tone and style, and as much as ECW was a mutant gongshow of "crazy things that would happen", it fit. Perfect company to take advantage of the early days of the internet going mainstream (and wrestling fans did seem to be one of the fangroups that really took huge advantage of early mainstream internet stuff like Geocities), perfect kind of show to appeal to the teenage male audience looking for an alternative to the Mabel's and Hulk Hogan's of the world. It's strange in that they had absolutely no "mainstream" impact in those years yet clearly among hardcore wrestling fans they were a known, and important, commodity. 95 and 96 are in my opinion two really good years where ECW, warts and all, was at the best of being what ECW was. There were a lot of factors that did help them, but they do deserve credit for taking advantage of it at least in the short term. -WWF and WCW both being down at the time - Emergence of the internet, and as a by-product entire "hobbyist" subcultures of people getting deeper into subjects than ever - The PG nature of mainstream wrestling allowing them to appeal to some fans through raw "Attitude" - Extension of the above by far the most successful company to market a product not always accepted even by local late night tv, using internet distribution/fan word of mouth online (a genuinely radical concept for the mid-1990's) I don't really think ECW could have been much bigger than it was, due to the violent/edgy nature that made them what they were, they were never going to be viable as some sort of mainstream TV product. Combined with by 1996 you start to really see the signs of the Big Two bleeding them for talent (Malenko, Beniot, Gurrero gone by then, 2 Cold Scorpio and Cactus Jack leave etc). '97 was a hot year for the company's popularity but really by then in hindsight the writing was on the wall with the cycle of them exposing new stars and losing them. But despite that I do think they deserve some credit for taking full advantage of the window they had at the end of this timeframe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Don't disagree with any of that. I I only started catching ECW every now and again in 1997 as it was on Fridays at 1am on Channel 27 out of Worcester. I didn't mind it then but when I went back and watched it on the network I couldn't get into it at all despite wanting to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 This era provided me with some of my fondest memories as a fan, but also almost drove me away completely when months and months of utter banality finally broke me sometime around April 1995. The great memories I have centre around me and 3 of my teenage buddies and our obsession with pro wrestling at a time when it was maybe as uncool as it has ever been. I was the most hardcore fan, of course, the only one who collected the mags, but my friend Kevin was close. From late 91 to roughly late 94 a significant part of our lives revolved around consuming wrestling. We went to closed circuit showings of PPVs, local indy shows in a skid row area of Calgary, had a backyard wrestling thing going, rented and re-rented CHV tapes, and even did some fantasy booking. We were total fucking nerds about it. I'll get into more later. Christmas and all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 My almost walking away moment came at a friend's house at KOTR 95. When Shawn and Kama drew we groaned like nuts. When Mabel beat Taker we both decided to go to the basement and try his new Star Trek TNG game instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyonthewall2983 Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 For pretty much most of '95 my attention was dwindled or non-existent. It wasn't until I read a year-in-review at the beginning of '96 when I saw how much had changed, namely that WCW got a show on Monday nights. I think if that major shift had not happened, I probably never would have gone back to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Following Contest Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Re: ECW. I remember my dad's friend giving me an Apter mag he bought because Sunny was on the cover, summer of 1996. (I had been an exclusive WWF Magazine guy until then). In it were photos of Shane Douglas vs. Sabu in a tiny arena. That's when I read the initials ECW for the first time. I'd seen the t-shirts in the crowd and wondered. Even went to a Vader-Warrior WWF House Show in Hamilton, On in May of 1996 and saw guys in ECW t-shirts and wondered what the hell they meant. ECW was certainly permeating the mainstream wrestling fan by '96, certainly because the product had become so terrible from late '91 until the nWo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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