Wrestle Kingdom 10

[kjh]

Main event was what it was. I'm less bothered by the leg work being blown off (I actually think Okada at least kind of sold it a bunch down the stretch actually), then I am by the fact that by far his most effective and consistent weapon in the match was a dropkick. Some of the spots with dropkicks were excellent looking in isolation, but I just can't get invested when a match unfolds that way. In many ways it felt like an overblown Mania main event, with tons of shit shoehorned in (including each guy doing the others finish), some of which worked very well, and some of which didn't work at all. It was the right match for the crowd, and the right guy won, so over all I was fairly indifferent to it. That said it blows my mind that some of the same people who were middling or tempered in their praise for the Bayley v. Sasha matches, seemed to loved this match of all things.

 

I pretty much am in line with your take although I was personally bugged more by the inconsistent selling (to the point that it veered over into absurdity for me personally) than the overuse of dropkicks by Okada (which was a trope started in the Tenryu match). I dubbed it a ridiculous match on Twitter, as I think that was an apt description, both as a positive and a negative, although some may just be on one side of the spectrum.

[Johnny Sorrow]

"Let's go."

"We can't."

"Why not?"

"We're waiting for Goto."

[W2BTD]

 

Main event was what it was. I'm less bothered by the leg work being blown off (I actually think Okada at least kind of sold it a bunch down the stretch actually), then I am by the fact that by far his most effective and consistent weapon in the match was a dropkick. Some of the spots with dropkicks were excellent looking in isolation, but I just can't get invested when a match unfolds that way. In many ways it felt like an overblown Mania main event, with tons of shit shoehorned in (including each guy doing the others finish), some of which worked very well, and some of which didn't work at all. It was the right match for the crowd, and the right guy won, so over all I was fairly indifferent to it. That said it blows my mind that some of the same people who were middling or tempered in their praise for the Bayley v. Sasha matches, seemed to loved this match of all things.

 

I pretty much am in line with your take although I was personally bugged more by the inconsistent selling (to the point that it veered over into absurdity for me personally) than the overuse of dropkicks by Okada (which was a trope started in the Tenryu match). I dubbed it a ridiculous match on Twitter, as I think that was an apt description, both as a positive and a negative, although some may just be on one side of the spectrum.

 

 

Keith, I have a lot to say here. I wouldn't make a post like this with someone I didn't know, but since I know you have thick skin, are an analytical guy, and I know you know the place I'm coming from, I'm going to let fly on a few things.

 

The dropkicks were symbolic. That's how he beat Tenryu, the retiring ace. So he used them again against the rival ace. That Tenryu match was as much a part of this 4-year story as the Tanahashi matches. Describing the dropkicks as "trope", and I don't mean this disrespectfully at all, means that a key part of the storytelling went over your head.

 

I also saw your Tweet earlier this:

 

"Ignore the bog standard opening, wacky psychology, reversals for the sake of them & inconsistent selling it was perfect."

 

Again, "reversals for the sake of them" indicates you didn't understand the story, especially coupled with "bog standard opening". I'll explain. Within the first 30 seconds of the match, when Okada tried to do his usual arrogant chest slap on the rope break and Tanahashi was ready with a wild right had, it was obvious what one of the themes of the match was going to be. They've wrestled 8 times. Countess tags. The constant reversals and counters were because by this point both men knew the other man inside and out. The first 10-15 was each guy going through his usual shit and the other guy countering or reversing. Later, they did the same with their big spots and bombs (Okada struggling to land the tombstone all match long, for example). It wasn't reversals "for the sake of it" like two indie geeks in a VFW hall in Alabama trying to copy what they see on YouTube, it was an integral part of the 8-match story.

 

Wacky psychology boggles my mind, because this match featured some of the best long term match to match psychology I've ever seen. Of course, that's subjective, because if for example I parachuted in to watch a mask vs mask match between two luchadores who were feuding for 30 years, I'd certainly miss most if not all of the subtle (and even not subtle) psychology and callbacks. Now, I'm not saying that you parachuted in for this match. I'm sure you've seen the others or most of the others. But hopefully you see my point.

 

The leg selling. Again, that was by design (and in my opinion, Okada's selling was good). Tanahashi destroyed the leg last year with all of the dragon screws and HFF's to the lower body. That was his strategy again. That's why he used the cloverleaf for months to beat everybody else. Okada survived the cloverleaf, and overcame the leg attacks. Like everything else they threw at each other strategically, it simply didn't work.

 

Okada getting desperate and chasing Rainmakers. Didn't work.

 

Both guys failing with their own finish and trying the other guys big move. Didn't work.

 

Tanahashi taking out the legs. Didn't work.

 

Someone else in this thread said it best. This was Game 7 and it came down to guts and who wanted it more. The finishing stretch was FUCK IT, wild desperation, throw everything against the wall.

 

Anyway, this was never going to be or supposed to be some sort of "work the leg" match that some people seem to be evaluating it as. That would have been incredibly disappointing to end the rivalry that way. This was an epic, four year story that paid off everything in the final chapter. When it comes to wrestling psychology, there are many ways to skin the cat. Somebody not limping enough is missing the point, and to me an odd way to deconstruct this match, but to each his own.

[Coffey]

Re-watched Ishii/Shibata, Nakamura/Styles & Tanahashi/Okada all three again today because I was showing them all to a friend that had not seen the show yet. I'm still a big fan of all three. I mean, I could find flaws & pick them apart somewhat if I wanted to but this early in the year, I'm just glad I got a good PPV. I imagine all three matches won't be forgotten when we're at the end of the year.

[Dylan Waco]

I think it's fair to listen to the arguments shoe and pol made about the limb selling quirk being a consistent staple of NJPW at this point, and I also agree with W2TBD's point that it wasn't supposed to be a match about leg selling. That said, what that tells me more than anything is that the limb work shouldn't be done. Again, my issue with Okada was not the selling of the limb per se, but the fact that by FAR his most effective offensive weapon in the match was the dropkick. He has a great one, and every time he hit one in the match it looked good, but it just doesn't fit for me at all and never will. I accept that it's not going anywhere, but as a fan or critic I don't think my job is to say "well I think this is off point, but it's part of the house style so whatever." I can acknowledge the reality of that house style, note that the match was effective/worked for the crowd (as I did very specifically in fact), but also conclude that not all styles are created equal.

 

In an unrelated note, this is the second year in a row where I preferred New Years Dash to Wrestle Kingdom. Cross posting my thoughts from the VOW board.

 

Legit thought New Years Dash was better than the Dome show, but that admittedly speaks to my biases as a fan. I'm always going to favor a "fun" show with fresh matches, novelty, and a unique main event, to a show that felt by the numbers in its approach even if it was admittedly good. WK10 felt like the best possible show for hardcore NJPW fans both in Japan, Europe and the States, where New Years Dash was more of a "something for everyone," grab bag type of show that I think even the most anti-NJPW person would probably enjoy on some level.

One arguably bad thing about the show is that it made me want to see a lot of matches that aren't terribly likely to happen. I would love to see Cheeseburger v. Fujiwara, Finlay/White regularly brought into contention in the Jr. tag division, Tonga and Haku (who is seriously really good) challenge Honma and Makabe for the tag belts or The Briscoes for that matter, but I think there is virtually zero chance of any of those things happening this year.

It's also worth noting that even me, one of the bigger "ugh Omega" guys around, thought the angle with him turning on AJ, uniting the Bullet Club around him, and declaring himself a non-junior after beating Nakamura clean was excellent. I actually think the smartest thing to do if Nak doesn't end up staying, would be for Omega to beat him clean, setting up the challenge from Ibushi when he gets back. It's not something I care to see, but it's a fresh match in NJPW, and could draw well if built correctly.

[kjh]

Using the term trope was unfair, as that's more an expectation on my part than the reality at this point. My main problem with the sequence of dropkicks was that it came immediately after Tanahashi had been destroying the leg with dragon screws and shortly thereafter Okada had to sell the damage like death again. That was just jarring to me personally, sometimes to the point of absurdity. I know it's an old spot, but Okada getting his leg destroyed only to counter a counter into a neck crusher on his bad knee just made him come across to me as incredibly stupid.

 

I wouldn't say don't do the knee work like Dylan does, as it was an important part of the match story, but a personal preference would be for a more gradual recovery from the damage than going back and forth from two extremes. Using the dropkick to break Tanahashi down to set up the Rainmaker makes sense, but it's difficult to bite into the near falls off them as Okada has never won a match with the dropkick and probably never will.

 

Bog standard opening was an exaggeration. There were some spots I liked in the opening portion of the match, but Okada and Tanahashi aren't particularly good at chain wrestling on the mat. They are OK at best. I just don't find it all that engaging.

 

I've seen this story or similar ones before in wrestling matches by other great workers. It just wasn't close to perfectly executed in this case. Yes, there were many sequences that were pulled off seamlessly, but there were also several spots that looked dog rough or were overly convoluted. Plus, at times it became overkill. I'm not going to count all the counters and reversals in the match, but maybe if you're averaging 5 per minute you've gone too far?

 

Part of the problem with the "top this" style is although the payback psychology can be cool, it can also make some of the kickouts predictable. You have to have the HFF spot to the outside. One Rainmaker won't finish Tanahashi because he kicked out last year. Okada has to kick out of last year's finishing combo. Maybe a more avid New Japan viewer would think Okada could possibly tapout to the Texas crowbar, but it wasn't something I was buying, as it has been a long time since Tanahashi has won a major match via submission.

 

But this match was always going to be the wrestling equivalent of marmite, the people who love the Okada vs. Tanahashi series were going to love this match and those that weren't so keen on it, weren't going to have a revelation and change their minds, as it was more of the same, just taken to the next level.

[GOTNW]

 

Maybe a more avid New Japan viewer would think Okada could possibly tapout to the Texas crowbar, but it wasn't something I was buying, as it has been a long time since Tanahashi has won a major match via submission.

If anything with how much New Japan he watched Joe should realize how there was zero chance that move was going to finish Okada. Who gives a shit if he beat some goof with it on the Road To tour when he hasn't won a meaningful singles match with it since 2011?

[W2BTD]

 

 

Maybe a more avid New Japan viewer would think Okada could possibly tapout to the Texas crowbar, but it wasn't something I was buying, as it has been a long time since Tanahashi has won a major match via submission.

If anything with how much New Japan he watched Joe should realize how there was zero chance that move was going to finish Okada. Who gives a shit if he beat some goof with it on the Road To tour when he hasn't won a meaningful singles match with it since 2011?

 

 

OK, but by this logic I shouldn't have popped for anything because the entire world knew Okada was winning anyway.

 

At the end of the day, Keith is right. If you were all in on the feud, you were going to love what they did because of all of the cool little layers. As someone super invested in the story, little things like Tanahashi using the cloverleaf against goofs on Road To shows for two months in order to set up one spot in the WK main event is something that I find super cool, not because I was going to buy into it as the finish, but because it's an added story element and pays you off for paying attention and giving a shit. These things are going to mean more to someone like me than breaking down working mechanics, but the less invested you are in what you are watching, the more you are going to focus on things like that.

 

Anyway, my point here is that psychology is more than selling limbs. This match was loaded with deep, layered psychology. All of that stuff meant far more to me than someone using a dropkick after some leg work possibly being illogical, but with that said I'm not someone who ever gets wrapped up on the minutiae of limb selling unless it's really egregious.

[Childs]

On WOR, Meltzer tossed some serious love at Fujiwara for his New Year's Dash performance. Warmed my heart.

[kjh]

He still probably won't put him on the Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame ballot. :-/

[Coffey]

Speaking of Meltzer, did he rate the Wrestle Kingdom 10 matches yet?

[Childs]

Yeah, he went 5 stars on the main event, 4 3/4 on AJ-Nak and 4 1/2 on Ishii-Shibata.

[Laney]

Here are Meltzer's full ratings:

 

Battle Royal *

Young Bucks vs ReDragon vs Roppongi Vice vs Sydal & Ricochet ***3/4

Briscoes & Toru Yano vs Bullet Club **

Jay Lethal vs Michael Elgin ***1/4

KUSHIDA vs Kenny Omega ****

Togi Makabe & Tomoaki Honma vs Gallows & Anderson ***3/4

Hirooki Goto vs Tetsuya Naito ***3/4

Katsuyori Shibata vs Tomohiro Ishii ****1/2

Shinsuke Nakamura vs AJ Styles ****3/4

Kazuchika Okada vs Hiroshi Tanahashi *****

[Robert S]

That Goto vs. Naito rating is absolutely insane. Both are mediocre guys when they are working hard and they did not show much here. Honestly I though that was the worst match of the night.

[Robert S]

On WOR, Meltzer tossed some serious love at Fujiwara for his New Year's Dash performance. Warmed my heart.

The way he phrased it did not sound that positive, the gist was "even in his heyday 30 years ago he did nothing but headbutts and holds and he can still do that".

[Childs]

 

On WOR, Meltzer tossed some serious love at Fujiwara for his New Year's Dash performance. Warmed my heart.

The way he phrased it did not sound that positive, the gist was "even in his heyday 30 years ago he did nothing but headbutts and holds and he can still do that".

 

 

I'm sorry, but that was not the tone, even if that is what Dave believes on some level. He seemed to get a genuine kick out of watching Fujiwara do his thing at 66 after surviving cancer.

[Jimmy Redman]

My take on the Ishii-Shibata dick flashing style is that they take a perfectly good idea - macho displays of toughness - and take it to its logical extreme, whereupon it crosses a line for me. It's an odd thing to say about two guys legitimately beating the fucking shit out of each other, but the way they do it comes off as...fake.

 

I think it's because they enjoy it so much. Even when you get to the point where they're grimacing and starting to sell, we've seen them hit each other with enough strikes and no sell them with laughter and jokes that you know that this is what they LIKE to do. It's showing off. When a man is waving his dick around he LIKES waving his dick around. It's fun. So it's hard to buy into the idea that the match is a struggle of any kind. It's just two guys sword fighting with their penises until one is supposed to lay down.

 

It treats moves and other wrestling matches with quite a bit of contempt too. I mean when you take moves that normally kill dudes and sort of look at your watch or feign a yawn...it's pretty blatant fourth wall breaking and makes a mockery of wrestling. And in turn it makes a mockery of their own match, because if you can no sell 37 of those kicks and strikes and moves, why couldn't you no sell 38? It's like that South Park skit come to life, where they do a bunch of bullshit and then say "your turn to lose" and he lays down dead. Again, it just comes off fake.

 

I was thinking about this when watching Hashimoto/Choshu '96, the match where Hash kicks the shit out of Choshu, and Choshu refuses to stay down. The contrast between that and what Ishii and Shibata do was staggering, even though the broad idea was the same. And I think it's because what Choshu was doing wasn't fun. He wasn't enjoying it. He was getting the shit kicked out of him and it was all over his face that he was getting the shit kicked out of him, even though he was kneeling there asking for more kicks. It was what these dick waving exercises try to be but never accomplish: a manly, defiant display of toughness. Taking someone's best shots (and I mean TAKING them, not letting them hit you and brushing it off) but refusing to stay down. It was real in all the ways that Ishii-Shibata wasn't.

 

And that's not to say, I mean, I liked Ishii-Shibata a LOT...the first time. I think it was the 2012 or 2013 G1 where they had their first big no-selling match? I really did enjoy that tremendously. And I don't begrudge anyone enjoying any of their matches, to each their own. But for me it's an extremely perishable style of match. It was fine once, in isolation, because it was a novelty to see THAT much no-selling in one match. But I don't ever need to see it again. The problem is that once Ishii and Shibata started off like that, they couldn't retreat from there and thus every one of their matches seemingly has to be like this. There's nowhere for them to go.

 

Which is why you should, you know...sell shit sometimes.

[Loss]

Dick waving is a really strange metaphor. I'm gay and I've never even met anyone who does that. Where does that even come from?

[Jimmy Redman]

Would "dick measuring" be a clearer term?

 

Nobody literally does it (I'm guessing, iI'm the lesbian in this conversation...) because it is a metaphor. Guys comparing the size of their penises (metaphorically) as an indicator of manliness.

[supremebve]

My take on the Ishii-Shibata dick flashing style is that they take a perfectly good idea - macho displays of toughness - and take it to its logical extreme, whereupon it crosses a line for me. It's an odd thing to say about two guys legitimately beating the fucking shit out of each other, but the way they do it comes off as...fake.

 

I think it's because they enjoy it so much. Even when you get to the point where they're grimacing and starting to sell, we've seen them hit each other with enough strikes and no sell them with laughter and jokes that you know that this is what they LIKE to do. It's showing off. When a man is waving his dick around he LIKES waving his dick around. It's fun. So it's hard to buy into the idea that the match is a struggle of any kind. It's just two guys sword fighting with their penises until one is supposed to lay down.

 

It treats moves and other wrestling matches with quite a bit of contempt too. I mean when you take moves that normally kill dudes and sort of look at your watch or feign a yawn...it's pretty blatant fourth wall breaking and makes a mockery of wrestling. And in turn it makes a mockery of their own match, because if you can no sell 37 of those kicks and strikes and moves, why couldn't you no sell 38? It's like that South Park skit come to life, where they do a bunch of bullshit and then say "your turn to lose" and he lays down dead. Again, it just comes off fake.

 

I was thinking about this when watching Hashimoto/Choshu '96, the match where Hash kicks the shit out of Choshu, and Choshu refuses to stay down. The contrast between that and what Ishii and Shibata do was staggering, even though the broad idea was the same. And I think it's because what Choshu was doing wasn't fun. He wasn't enjoying it. He was getting the shit kicked out of him and it was all over his face that he was getting the shit kicked out of him, even though he was kneeling there asking for more kicks. It was what these dick waving exercises try to be but never accomplish: a manly, defiant display of toughness. Taking someone's best shots (and I mean TAKING them, not letting them hit you and brushing it off) but refusing to stay down. It was real in all the ways that Ishii-Shibata wasn't.

 

And that's not to say, I mean, I liked Ishii-Shibata a LOT...the first time. I think it was the 2012 or 2013 G1 where they had their first big no-selling match? I really did enjoy that tremendously. And I don't begrudge anyone enjoying any of their matches, to each their own. But for me it's an extremely perishable style of match. It was fine once, in isolation, because it was a novelty to see THAT much no-selling in one match. But I don't ever need to see it again. The problem is that once Ishii and Shibata started off like that, they couldn't retreat from there and thus every one of their matches seemingly has to be like this. There's nowhere for them to go.

 

Which is why you should, you know...sell shit sometimes.

First of all, Loss I wish the like button worked for your response.

 

Here is my (31st?) defense of the Ishii/Shibata match. When you were a kid did you ever play that game with a friend where you would punch each other in the arm and the first person who gives up loses? You punch your friend and then he punches you, and no matter how hard he hits you, you pretend it doesn't hurt. That is the story of this match. These two guys respect each other's toughness and they want to prove their tougher than the other. They hit each other with all of these big strikes, but don't want to give their opponent the satisfaction that they were hurt. If you are watching the match you know these strikes hurt, because they are stiffing the hell out of each other. The match works if you don't get caught up in thinking this match follows the same logic as all of the other matches on the show. The match follows its own logic, that is pretty simple if you aren't prejudiced by what you think it should be. It's like when you watch a boxing match and a guy lands a big shot, but his opponent shakes his head as if to say, "that didn't hurt." Of course it hurt, a professional boxer just punched him square in the face, but he's not going to let his opponent have the satisfaction of showing him the obvious pain that he is in. Hashimoto and Choshu were enemies who want to desperately prove that they are the better wrestler. These are two guys who kind of like each other who want to prove once and for all which one is tougher. I thought they made it very clear from the beginning that these guys were more interested in playing their private game than putting on a traditional wrestling match. Not everything needs to be a serious athletic contest, or a hate filled brawl. Sometimes, a couple of guys trying something a little different works, as I thought it did here.

[Jimmy Redman]

I have no issue with that, and like I said I'm happy for anyone who enjoys it. I'm just explaining why I'm not a fan of it beyond a one-off anomaly, and it's that "playing a game between ourselves" aspect that turns me off.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Dick waving is a really strange metaphor. I'm gay and I've never even met anyone who does that. Where does that even come from?

George Carlin reference. As in "George Bush and Sadaam Hussein waving their dicks at each other."

[WingedEagle]

Ishii-Shibata is a match you'll see at least once on every big New Japan show. I absolutely cannot stand the spots where they take turns letting each other whack them, but depending on what surrounds it can overlook it. I didn't enjoy the Shibata-Goto feud a couple years back that Meltzer & others lauded with snowflakes, or more recent iterations (often featuring Goto. Hmm...), but thought this iteration was much more satisfying. One could certainly say there was rampant no-selling throughout, but I thought both guys did a great job staggering their spots and putting on delayed selling performances that demonstrated the cumulative effects of their attacks. They're tough dudes pounding on each other. At its care that's all that happens here. Just don't scream at me that nothing hurts at all and I'll be with you the entire way. They didn't do that here and simply pounded on each other as their video game health bars dissipated. Some people don't like that, but I'm a fan and think its often very logical.

 

Once they left the exhibition sequence behind them I was completely hooked and if I recall correctly, even made great use of the one count kickout, a trope which NJ can often overuse, but where used sparingly is absolutely tremendous. I had this as the second best match on the show behind the main event and ahead of Styles-Nakamura, which while very good, had many more flaws which I hope to talk about later today. Felt like a really fun 4.5 stars in the moment.

[RyanClingman]

I feel that New Japan actually used one counts quite sparingly until night four of the 2013 G1 when Ibushi & Nakamura and Shibata & Ishii tore the house down making heavy use of them. Ever since, one counts have been a staple, specifically for the Honma, Goto, Shibata and Ishii types, at least in major singles matches. Unfortunately, this has led to an overexposure of the spot.

[Childs]

Finally caught up with the show.

 

I went in expecting to be turned off by Ishii-Shibata, because I'm sick of Japanese matches built around the my-turn, your-turn strike sequences. Here's hoping the industry moves beyond that tired cliche at some point. Anyway, Ishii and Shibata delivered plenty of the expected machismo bullshit, but the match succeeded in spite of it. As others have said, they worked a style that was appropriate to the two characters and appropriately different from the subsequent two matches on the card. The violence was sufficiently harrowing that they elicited a few audible wows from me, but they also put together some really clever, competitive-feeling sequences down the stretch. Not a classic but a satisfying Dome slugfest.

 

Styles-Nakamura was certainly the match I most looked forward to, and it was very good. I liked Styles playing around with whether his back was actually hurt, and they came up with some neat counters and submission spots (particularly dug the Styles Clash out of the triangle). But I'm not sure anything popped at a MOTY level. Watching Nak-Ibushi the year before was exhilarating; I never felt that during this match. We'll see if my opinion shifts at all after a second watch.

 

Tanahashi-Okada is never going to hit my wrestling sweet spot, but I can't fault what they did in producing a suitable main event and capper to their rivalry. I don't enjoy watching those guys work through the body of a match. Their strikes and holds just don't look good to me, so it's hard to see the work as anything but bland preamble. What they're great at is producing long, dramatic finishing runs. And they whipped off another one here. I didn't have a problem with Okada's selling. It wasn't as if Tanahashi did anything that should have crippled him. Whenever Tanahashi did a callback spot to the leg, he sold it appropriately.

 

In sum, the big matches on the show delivered, and they did a nice job of making each feel different than the one before it. I didn't find the undercard interesting, but when the big three hit, it doesn't matter that much.