Is Shawn Michaels in your Top 100?

[JerryvonKramer]

Who are you giving credit to for it, Barry Darsow?

[Matt D]

Eadie, who will be thirty spots higher than Michaels on my list.

[Jimmy Redman]

Shawn's INSANE bump over the top rope to the floor and the subsequent heat stretch were a pretty big part of the match, from memory, and that was trademark Shawn.

 

On the subject, I was listening to Shawn on Jericho's podcast the other day and it might interest you to know that this match came up, and while he still half defends his thinking in a kind of "I was young and that's how I felt at the time" way, he also kind of admitted that he understood now where the Demos were coming from and why they wanted to work the match the way they did.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've watched a few Demolition matches recently, and honestly I've struggled to see it.

 

I doubt Bill Eadie will be making my list. In fact, I'm not sure he'll even get BIGLAV ratings.

 

Shawn will do better than anyone would expect because of the aforementioned ratings.

[Matt D]

Phew, that's a close one then. I was THIS close to using BIGLAV myself. Bullet dodged.

[Matt D]

Shawn's INSANE bump over the top rope to the floor and the subsequent heat stretch were a pretty big part of the match, from memory, and that was trademark Shawn.

 

On the subject, I was listening to Shawn on Jericho's podcast the other day and it might interest you to know that this match came up, and while he still half defends his thinking in a kind of "I was young and that's how I felt at the time" way, he also kind of admitted that he understood now where the Demos were coming from and why they wanted to work the match the way they did.

 

I haven't heard that one yet, but he at least talks about it in his book. It's interesting. I personally punish Dynamite Kid for his last WWF run, The footage explosion of the last fifteen years first showed us how prevalent the Heel-in-Peril narrative was in the 80s WWF tag scene, and then, as we saw more and more matches, how that narrative might have been a little over-exaggerated. It's least of all so with the late-run Bulldogs though. Dynamite was tough enough, skilled enough, and stubborn enough to eat up far more of a match than was productive. I really think that if he was four inches taller, he might have been one of the best heels of the decade. That's not how he was cast however. The irony is this: Rockers Michaels gets rewarded because he wasn't tough enough or established enough to eat matches alive like Dynamite did when I think we have every indication that he would have if he could have. It's a lot like how 90s Hansen is rewarded, in part, for no longer being physically capable of repressing his opponents.

 

Of course, all of that played into what made both Dynamite and Michaels great, too, They cared so severely. We've talked about this before. Michaels ego drove his ambition, and that's what led to his frustration when things went poorly in matches in 96 and the sort of layered, cinematic storytelling that he attempted in the 00s, which often missed the mark because of his lack of range as an dramatic actor, even if he was hugely skilled as a seller and bumper, but that no one else was really even attempting. He's on my list, rewarded for the ambition, and for the physical skills that do back it up, and far lower than other wrestlers, for how that ambition was quite often detrimental to matches.

 

The art of wrestling is a hugely complex, fascinating thing. That's the fun of all of this and the joy of it.

[JazeUSA]

 

top 50 lock, top 25 strong possibility

Why?

 

because as a former worker myself I cant name 50 that is better, pretty sure I cant name 25, I do not care for him personally but I feel as tho he gets a really bad rep on the boards as far as his in ring work is concerned, I dont see how anyone can deny his in ring work, to many top notch matches IMO

[Matt D]

It's the lack of understanding that always kills me.

[Loss]

Okay, I have to clarify what "lack of understanding" means in this context. Do you think you understand wrestling better than Shawn Michaels?

[Matt D]

Okay, I have to clarify what "lack of understanding" means in this context. Do you think you understand wrestling better than Shawn Michaels?

That people can write thousands of words from a dozen directions and someone still can't begin to understand how anyone could possibly feel different than himself about a subject?

[JerryvonKramer]

To be fair, I haven't read an awful lot from anyone on Shawn not being a SMART worker. I've read about him having crappy offense. I've read about his post-comeback stuff being overrated, but that is directly tied to the qualms about the WWE-main event style. I've read about him being a dick, etc., but I'm not sure if I've ever seen it laid out how and why he doesn't work smart. Not like there has been for someone like Kurt Angle.

 

Any links would be appreciated on that score.

 

My dislike of HBK is irrational, and not based anything I have against his work. I just don't like him or his face. I think he has great performances in the 80s and right through the 90s until the injury. I can leave all of the 00s stuff, save maybe some of the stuff with Jericho, but that's true of 95% of 00s wrestling for me.

[Matt D]

Okay, I have to clarify what "lack of understanding" means in this context. Do you think you understand wrestling better than Shawn Michaels?

I actually think Shawn developed a very strong understanding of wrestling over the years. It's just that when he was eminently selfish about it. The Wrestlemania XI match, for instance, is something that only someone who really understood wrestling could manage, but it was the absolute worst match for him to work for the sake of his opponent and the company and its goals, self-serving, resentful, and ultimately a devastating piece of sabotage against a guy who was his friend, and one that probably, ultimately, served him well for his own babyface turn later in the year.

 

Pre-comeback Shawn was the Lex Luthor of wrestling: brilliant, arrogant, capable, daring, but unable to see goodness in the heart of his fellow man, because he lacked it himself.

 

And I appreciate that enough, combined with his timing and selling and general physical skills, for him to show up somewhere in the back half of my list.

[Jetlag]

Post comeback Shawn is a pretty good example of someone who's not the all-capable superworker he thinks he is (similiar to Triple H) and was unable to adapt properly to age. Pre-comeback Shawn really liked to do that silly over the top bumping shit that rarely made his opponent look good and also fucked himself up good.

 

Anyways I really can't stand post comeback Shawn (45 minute bout with Cena aside, through some miracle) and his pre-injurystuff, while often solid and sometimes great, is still below someone like Bret Hart. No chance.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

I find peak Shawn to be good at laying the table, but not so good when it comes to serving a satisfying meal.

[Benbeeach]

Post comeback Shawn is a pretty good example of someone who's not the all-capable superworker he thinks he is (similiar to Triple H) and was unable to adapt properly to age. Pre-comeback Shawn really liked to do that silly over the top bumping shit that rarely made his opponent look good and also fucked himself up good.

 

Anyways I really can't stand post comeback Shawn (45 minute bout with Cena aside, through some miracle) and his pre-injurystuff, while often solid and sometimes great, is still below someone like Bret Hart. No chance.

What exactly are the examples of post comeback Shawn "punching above his weight class" so to speak? Those matches with Cena were a lot closer to his main event norm than some outlier. Working against peak Cena on a pretty good established formula is probably going to garner pretty good results but the idea that they were "miracles" seems harsh. I rewatched a RAW match with Benoit, where you'd think Shawn might go above and beyond his actual skill set, but he doesn't. He keeps it super basic and he somehow gets a vertical suplex over as a nearfall. Post comeback Shawn isn't without fault, but I never saw, chop, elbow, sell for hours, super kick, go home, as somehow being beyond his reach.

[Jetlag]

Isn't the whole "Showstopper" gimmick centered around him being a superworker? The most obvious example would be that street fight with Jericho. They both come out in street fight gear, trying to look really tough and all that, then trade lousy punches. Their WM match felt like a pretty dire forced epic to me aswell. He also loved participating in convoluted matches with Triple H. Perhaps it is also lack of understanding his physical limitations (believability) and bad execution, for example when he works "seasoned veteran controlling a stronger, young opponent" against Cena and doesn't come across that well doing it. The thing is that watching post comeback Shawn I often feel that it's clear he still knows what he's doing, but doesn't have the physical tools/awareness to put it together into actively good matches. Slightly adjusting his style could've helped.

[joeg]

He's in one of my favorite matches ever so yeah, I'd put him in my top 100.

[TheU_2001]

Without a doubt yes.