Mad Dog Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Sorry if this is similiar to the looks thread but I've been really bothered by some of the threads I've read lately at various sites. I've had to really think about a lot of the recent wrestling deaths and the answers I've seen in other people's posts and fan attitude in general were not pleasant. It made me realize that we as fans are just as responsible for every wrestling death as the companies that hire them. We just don't fucking get it. People mourn someone like Eddie's loss and ask why this happened but they never learn anything. They constantly show they haven't by the threads I listed in the first paragraph. These same people will of course mourn and ask why this happened when the next wrestler dies. We're supposed to be smart marks but why do we continue to, in our own way, condone wrestlers abusing drugs and taking steroids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 The Konnan shoot interview changed me as a wrestling fan. I try to be a lot more respectful towards the entertainers that put their bodies on the line for my entertainment. Konnan had a great point. I've watched and been entertained by wrestling for YEARS so it doesn't make sense for me to be so negative. So, recently, I've tried not to be. I still care, I just don't have to always express my concern with a negative light. As far as fans being just as responsible for wrestling deaths, I think Loss put it well in the Trevor Murdoch thread. Fans as a whole are somewhat responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 What did Konnan say in his shoot interview? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Basically that he doesn't respect most internet fans because they have no respect for the sport that they supposedly "love." They just get together and as a collective whole look for negatives to complain about despite being entertained for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Fans are resonsible to a degree but when it all comes down to it it's the person himself who makes the final decision. What causes the final decision? Ego. I'm drug free except for stuff I've taken for headaches at times. I don't drink alcholol, smoke weed or anything like that. Yet, I know what it's like to be tempted to go up one extra rung on the physique ladder and take roids. I don't even though I completely understand the inclanation to do so. Yes, you can say society pressures you into doing so but when it all comes down to the wire it's you who pressures yourself. You're the one who wants to jump higher, run faster, be stronger, look better, get accolades from the crowd and so on. All of that comes from one thing -- ego which you have to have tons of if you want to be a top notch wrestler. It may be packaged in different forms and people may not even notice it at first but it's what drives every top preformer or person in society to succeed. In fact, it's what drives everyone. Bret Hart in a quote said it best. When Jim Ross asked him how the fans want to remember him he went on to some quote that without ego you are lost and indeed you are. There's a connection with the fans demanding a lot from the wrestlers and forcing them to do so but let's be honest it's the wrestlers themselves who love to be cheered by the crowd. Yes, as the wrestlers say in their politically correct way they love making the crowd happy and "doing it for the fans" but truth be known they're doing a lot of it for themselves. The cheers are what makes them happy. It inflates the ego. What I'm trying to say here is that the wrestlers push themselves and the blame shouldn't all go on the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheShawshankRudotion Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 This is like saying that men are responsible for anorexic looking women. I don't ever recall a big demand for stick women. Really, it's only the past 30-40 years that the notion of thin and beautiful came into our culture. Before that, curvy women were what was defined as beautiful. And really, all this time, has mens interest in women changed? No. Men will be attracted to any kind of woman because its in our nature (cept for the gay people). These images are more creations of fashion, magazines and other forms of entertainment - the minority opinion presenting something as a majority. Since Men like Women, we just go along with it and say "ok". Ditto with wrestling fans. Most wrestling fans will like whatever wrestling they're presented. People liked Dusty Rhodes in the same era that they liked Hulk Hogan. People liked Stan Hansen in the same era that they liked Rick Rude. But the most successful musclemen never just got over on being big, they got over on being charismatic. There are probably more bodybuilder types that haven't gotten over because they weren't charismatic and couldn't connect with the audience than those who weren't built like that but could manage the connection. The problem is, nowadays with just the WWE on top, the minority opinion (Vince) is essentially controlling the direction of peoples tastes by presenting a bunch of muscleheads. And fans are like, "Uh, ok" and go along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 That's true but we condone it and even in a lot of situations fans would totally accept a wrestler taking pain killers just to please them. Look at the RoH fans yesterday. They were actually trashing Styles so bad that Gabe had to go onto the RoH boards and chew them out and even mentioned threads like those make him want to close the boards down. Other people were doing it at DVDVR. So essentially there was a fan uproar about an injured wrestler taking a break. And even after it was revealed that if Styles got busted again at RoH he'd need plastic surgery there were still fans bitching about him being a pussy. The companies that hire them have a lot of responsibility, WWE especially, but the fans have played a role as well. A lot have bought into the line that bigger = better from the WWE. When a wrestler comes along that isn't a roid machine even smarks will shit on them like they did with Murdoch. Then we have the indy fan who doesn't give a shit about any of the wrestlers. A wrestler could die right in front of them and they'd bitch and moan that said wrestler ruined their fun. There's also the indy fan that demands blood and death matches which leads to guys doing pain killers. At some point fans have to realize we in our own way encourage the drug culture that's become such a problem in the wrestling world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheShawshankRudotion Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 But usually the people who buy into the Bigger = Better WWE line only know WWE wrestling. That's what they've grown up with, they don't know any better. If the WWE were pushing more natural looking bodies, then they'd think that was the right look for wrestlers. I don't think this is something that we are born with, it's something that is learned. It's environmental. Fans like seeing two guys beat the shit out of each other - that's what we're born with**. What those guys look like is up to the people presenting it. Murdoch is a shitty wrestler. I can't believe people are getting on his bandwagon just because of his look. I like Murdoch, I like his image and think he is very charismatic. He could be a big success. But he still is a shitty wrestler. IMO, wrestlers who deserve to be pushed should be pushed. Many things could make them deserving, but one of them shouldn't be their image. And this works both ways - muscleheads shouldn't just be pushed cause their big, and soft types like Murdoch shouldn't be pushed just because he's round around the middle. **Fans appreciate toughness, and don't respect weakness. We cheer those who fight through the pain. But the schedule that wrestlers, particularly WWE wrestlers, isn't because of the fans wishes. That the WWE doesn't cycle their wrestlers isn't because of the fans. That's the WWE's business choice. You can continue bashing ROH fans, though. How dare AJ Styles not want to wrestle infront of them! Why, they are the best wrestling fans in the world. They go to all the trouble of coming up with multiple chants and they pay their $15 so they just want the wrestlers to return the favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 I'm not a Styles fan at all, but I 100% side with him not wrestling on the ROH show. As Gabe said, plastic surgery could be required if his lip gets messed up anymore than it already is, and he wouldn't be able to go all out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest brian Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 I don't feel guilty because we (fans) encourage wrestlers to accept steroids and painkiller and the culture surrounding it. I feel guilty because we accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 Here's something to think about though. If Harley Race debuted tomorrow would American fans accept him or would they shit all over him because of his look? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 It really depends on how he was booked. He def. has the charisma to get over on his own but saddle him with a gimmick and make him read from cards and he would be no more over than Chris Masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
World's Worst Man Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I don't think Race's physical stature would hurt him in the eyes of the fans, but he'd never get a serious push in the WWE. That says to me that Vince McMahon is to blame, not the fans. Small guys can make it if they're talented, it's just a matter of being booked well. It seems redundant to always bring these guys up, but Austin, Bret Hart, HBK, Benoit, Guerrero were all guys who did well for themselves despite not being physically big. All of them had the talent and charisma to succeed. Then look at a guy like Lex Luger, who was pushed for years, yet never had any sort of large following. He had no ability or charisma, and he failed, despite having a ripped physique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Luger actually was extremely over in short spurts, but was never able to sustain heat for any length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I'd say Luger was the 2nd most over wrestler in North America when he was chasing Hogan for the title in 97. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Behind who? I'd put him behind Austin, Hogan, Hart, Michaels and Sting, and maybe even Hall and Nash, but there were a lot of over guys at that time and he was in great company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Behind who? I'd put him behind Austin, Hogan, Hart, Michaels and Sting, and maybe even Hall and Nash, but there were a lot of over guys at that time and he was in great company. I'd put Luger behind Undertaker at that time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted December 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I'd put him behind Sting and slightly above Austin until late August. I've seen few buildings erupt like they did the night Luger won the title. I meant 2nd most over face in North America actually. I should've been more clear on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Luger was one of the hottest properties around during the time he left the Horsemen and started chasing Flair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 I think Luger's hotness in 1997 was more about being in the right place, at the right time, than what he did as a performer. The nWo was booked as almost unstoppable, so when Luger, who was seen as a pretty big star due to his big pushes in the past, started to defeat Hogan again and again they really got behind him. The nWo was the really hot act, Luger was just along for the ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 The sad thing is that Lex Luger in 1997 was probably more over than every single person in US wrestling today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts