1Bob reports Benoit is leaving WWE

[Guest Dangerous A]

I am not sure if the Benoit bit is true or not. Haven't heard Meltz or even Keller say anything on it. I guess it puts a little more intrige in the Booker/Benoit match at the ppv this sunday. If Booker sweeps, I think Benoit may be on the way out. If not, then Benoit probrably re-upped or isn't going anywhere for awhile.

 

And ultimately I blame Vince. Steph and HHH have huge roles to play, but in the end Vince has the final say as to what goes and what doesn't. Hell, the necro angle was Vince's. HHH and Steph tried to get out of it, but Vince and Kevin Dunn were insistent it go on. HHH was able to lobby to portray the ending as a sick joke to help save face.

 

Bottom line is I think Vince McMahon has completely lost it.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I checked 1wrestling, I didn't see the story.

[sek69]

I don't think that argument holds weight since he stumbled into the most successful period in wrestling history after the fact. I think it happened during the peak of his power and surrounds the XFL.

Stumbled is the key word. If WCW hadn't handed him Austin on a silver platter with a bow, I think WCW might have been the company that survived and WWE would be talked about like WCW is now.

 

It just seems that when Vince came back in 1994, it's been one bad idea after another with seemingly no one willing to say it to his face.

[Marty]

The sad thing is that guys like Benoit, Jericho, etc are really the last generation of guys who paid dues in Japan, Mexico and North American territories before getting a shot on a big stage. They learned a lot about working a crowd and parlayed things that they learned everywhere into the style that they used as stars. That type of guy, the world-travelled wrestler, is a pretty dead concept now, and there just aren't really many places anymore for wrestlers to work and learn their craft, nor are there any wrestlers who have really mastered more than one style that are big enough in size for WWE to push. The days of great wrestling have been teasing being over for years now, but it looks like they're finally coming to a close. It's spotfests that get called MOTYCs now, and WWE is now losing Benoit, Guerrero and Jericho, all in the span of about four months. Yes, there are (very few) talented guys left, but most of them don't have anyone to work with at their level. And we can't look at the other side of the coin and say that a new crop of stars will come along that's really charismatic and knows how to work outside the ring either, since their promos are all so heavily scripted by TV writers and they're not encouraged to wing it and speak from the heart.

Very well put, and regarding the promos, you can say the same thing for in-ring working style, as everyone is so restrained by the WWE working style that no one really stands out that much, save for the usual suspects. That, of course, ties in to no longer having world-travelled workers, but even then, *those* guys were restricted by that style. Basically, in the same sense, no one is allowed to wing it in the ring either, thus no one stands out.

[sek69]

That's why I think it's unfair when a new guy starts in WWE and people immediately brand them a shitty wrestler. All the new guys are instructed to work and speak the exact same (crappy) way and if that wasn't bad enough, most get stuck with a dead end gimmick right out of the box that kills any heat they might get in spite of the style they're forced to work.

 

What's funny is they don't work WWE style in OVW. Guys like Lashley, the Dicks, the Heart Throbs, Ken Kennedy, all had much better matches in OVW than I've seen any of them do on WWE TV yet.

[Guest Sass]

I blame Russo.

 

It was him who helped create the Mr.McMahon character and got the wheels going with the whole "writers need to please Vince" memo that everyone's gotten over the years since Vince's in-ring debut 7 years ago.

[Guest SweetMama Scaat]

Its being rumored that Benoit is going to Japan for a bit, possibly after Armageddon...

[Resident Evil]

Its being rumored that Benoit is going to Japan for a bit, possibly after Armageddon...

Is that different rumour(s) or the same one that's here?

[Marty]

I blame Russo.

 

It was him who helped create the Mr.McMahon character and got the wheels going with the whole "writers need to please Vince" memo that everyone's gotten over the years since Vince's in-ring debut 7 years ago.

More importantly, it was him that made the value of titles like the Intercontinental and Tag Team titles go downhill in various ways. Instead of being symbols of value that showcased the rise of a worker, or were even used in main events somewhat often, they did become "props", just as he described them.

[sek69]

There are few things sadder than watching the IC title go from being held by the most over non-Hogan worker (the 80s) to an important stepping stone for future world champs (in the 90s) to something ignored and barely defended on TV anymore today.

[Loss]

Russo is definitely one who formed the "writers write to get writers over as being important to the show, not to get the most out of the talent" mantra. People talk about the good Russo was able to do in the short-term, but he's probably the worst thing that has happened to pro wrestling in the past 10 years.

[Guest savagerulz]

So does the XWF, mounting deaths in wrestling, killing the Invasion potential, failure to listen to the fans in the arenas, giving creative over to his unproven and ultimate failure of a daughter, holding back on pushes for guys who have potential, pushing green rookies too fast and giving the green light to some of the worst skits ever seen in the industry make him a genius also?

Vince knows how to create stars. Any list of top ten WWF stars ever will have names that were fucking MADE in the WWF. They may not have gotten their START there, but without the WWF they would have been more likely to end up selling foam middle fingers at a concession booth than being legends.

 

HBK, Bret Hart, Austin, Rock, Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Macho Man

 

Those guys were AT BEST mid-card acts with big promotions elsewhere, or the big act in a small league. In other words, nobody heard of them or cared on a national scale until they were MADE in the WWF. That's something. It wasn't just "hey, sign the guys and they'll make us look great." Not one of those guys listed above didn't go through a RADICAL change from where they were to the WWF at Vince's behest. I would also add that a couple of them had to work different things while IN the WWF before they made it big.

 

Let me list guys who had their potential filled in the WWF

 

Honkytonk Man, Jake Roberts, Angle, Cena, Batista, Eddie G., Jericho

 

Nowhere else but the WWF could HTM not only do well, but be an actual DRAW with his shtick. If not for the WWF, Jake Roberts would have no shot as being seen as anything other than a tragedy. His run in the WWF is what help make him be perceived as a master of psychology. Without the WWF he was a mid-level star in a smaller promotion without a real shot at being much more. The WWF worked with Angle and pointed him in the right direction. They gave him room, they let him try things out, they've made him a star every bit as much as he made himself one. You think Angle in WCW would have made it? We'll never know. But I venture to say no. Cena? Batista? We can argue over this or that, but those guys have fulfilled their potential as wrestlers...arguably exceeded them thanks to the WWF. Eddie G.? He went from "he might be better than just a talented cruiserweight, but who knows" to GREAT performer and world champ. And the WWF provided that stage, provided the means, assisted him through it all.

 

And Jericho. That guy was treated as a mid-level...no a fucking LOW level act in WCW. A pouty, small guy to spice the lower mid-card. The WWF made that guy a megastar with his goddamn entrance alone.

 

Hiring the right people and knowing when to control and when to filter and when NOT to do so is an art all it's own. Russo under McMahon = gold. Russo without McMahon = making himself world champ, making Goldberg heel, and "That 70's Guy."

 

McMahon got Jim Ross on board and let HIS keen eye for finding diamonds in the rough save his company.

 

McMahon knew how and when to use Cornette.

 

McMahon made the right friends (in Dick Ebersol, on Wall Street, in Stu Hart, in the Briscos, in the USA network, in Mtv, etc.) when he needed to make the moves. He pulled the trigger at the right times.

 

He was ahead of the curve about DVDs and is now reaping the benefits. He's not doing as well financially, but he hamstrung the "competition" enough that no one was there to capitalize and hurt him further.

 

Ever since the company went public, they've been hurting. It's a big burden, and blowing most of the money raised on a failed XFL venture and losing the majority of their big stars (something that really helped kill WCW) and then losing the Viacom deal...but still having two shows that are two hours(!) each, and still having a flagship show on a cable network...that's not too shabby.

 

Remember what wrestling used to be? Jobber matches on one hour shows. No PPV revenue. Wrestlers being worked to death. It's better now...more to the point, he made the whole fucking thing that people nitpick to death in small areas.

 

Too many PPVs? Maybe. But he MADE the goddamn PPV industry in the first place.

 

Smackdown! isn't as good? Well, he's got FOUR HOURS of prime time programming on a week...that's a lot of TV. More importantly, they are in solid with USA and survived the "we're losing UPN!" deal.

 

The WWF is at a low. But the fact that they are still in business means the following:

 

1. McMahon outlasted Heyman.

2. McMahon beat Bischoff with Turner's money backing.

3. McMahon beat the territories. To death.

4. McMahon owns all of their tape libraries and makes more money selling DVDs of everyone's stuff above than they make now, and in many cases made when they WERE viable promotions.

 

TNA needs a series of small miracles to really begin to compete. You always get the feeling that with one spark McMahon can turn the ship around and sail again. Why? Because he's done it. Again, and again, and again...and he's laying the foundation to do it again.

 

How many WWF-related DVDs do you own? You still catch the show sometimes? Watch a PPV now and then? Probably. And even if you don't, you can be made a fan again. The WWF damn near lost it all ten years ago. That isn't that long ago. Neither is five years ago, when they could do no wrong. But they dropped again. When it happened to WCW, they imploded and died a whimpering death.

 

The WWF is still around. Still kicking. And while people like to call Heyman "The Evil Genius," the fact is, he gets coffee for the real one.

[Strummer]

There are few things sadder than watching the IC title go from being held by the most over non-Hogan worker (the 80s) to an important stepping stone for future world champs (in the 90s) to something ignored and barely defended on TV anymore today.

I agree with you to a point. I wouldn't say that the IC champ was the most over worker next to Hogan in the 80s. JYD was clearly number 2 face and incredibly over and he never really came close to the IC title.

 

In the 80s the IC title was a way of balancing the heel/face dynamic. The world title was dominated by faces so the IC title was the heel title to at least try to give some guys credibility and create intrigue.

 

As far as the 90s, it was a stepping stone which pretty much died when Rock lost the title in 98.

[Guest Bruiser Chong]

JYD almost won the IC title at Wrestlemania.

 

I also don't see how the fact that a handful of wrestlers becoming superstars in the WWF cancels out everything GH listed in addition to the volume of guys Vince tried and failed to make superstars.

[Guest brian]

Wrestlers being worked to death. It's better now...

Quoted for emphasis.

[sek69]

 

McMahon knew how and when to use Cornette.

 

 

You lost me there.

[Mad Dog]

1. McMahon outlasted Heyman.

Which means what exactly. Saying you beat ECW is a pretty pathetic accomplishment considering it only survived as long as it did because McMahon was sinking money into it. And let's just bury this right now. ECW wasn't shit as far as a national promotion goes. Even when they were supposedly giving WCW a run for it's money, WCW wandered over to Australia and drew in 2 shows more than ECW did for half of that year. You're talking about a federation that drew 6000 fans once and a federation that was never even close to making money. They were a regional fed that thought they were more than they really were.

 

2. McMahon beat Bischoff with Turner's money backing.

Being not as stupid as your competition doesn't make you a genius.

 

3. McMahon beat the territories. To death.

Again, not being as stupid as your competition doesn't make you a genius. Vince beat the territories because the territories were run by morons who were behind the times. Had said promoters had a clue and banded together we wouldn't be talking about Vince right now.

 

4. McMahon owns all of their tape libraries and makes more money selling DVDs of everyone's stuff above than they make now, and in many cases made when they WERE viable promotions.

Do you know how much VHS tapes ran when most of those promotions were viable? We're talking at least $50 in the 80s for a VHS tape of a wrestling event. I think the WCW tapes ran at around $60. Vince is lucky more than anything that DVD came along and changed the whole home entertainment thing to the point where he could actually use these libraries.

 

Let's really look at the WWF and Vince in general. Vince has completely failed in every venture outside of wrestling. This includes the WBF, the XFL, ICOPro supplements, WWF New York and a few other things that never surfaced.

 

The company currently can't run shows out of their home arena because they can't draw enough people to cover the rental fee.

 

Stockholders have been bitching at them for years because they keep huge sums of money on hand that are earning them no return. This is a horrible business practice.

 

He was handed an Invasion angle twice and botched both. He had Flair/Hogan on the roster and it wasn't until WCW got them that they main evented a PPV.

[Coffey]

Vince knows how to create stars. Any list of top ten WWF stars ever will have names that were fucking MADE in the WWF. They may not have gotten their START there, but without the WWF they would have been more likely to end up selling foam middle fingers at a concession booth than being legends.

 

HBK, Bret Hart, Austin, Rock, Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Macho Man

 

Those guys were AT BEST mid-card acts...blah blah blah

 

Let me list guys who had their potential filled in the WWF: Honkytonk Man, Jake Roberts, Angle, Cena, Batista, Eddie G., Jericho

*more dumb shit*

This is, without a doubt, the dumbest fucking thing I've ever read. Especially on these forums. WWF stars were made in WWF? No shit. WCW stars were made in WCW too. Sting? Flair? Luger? It works both ways. Hell, I could list wrestlers, like Rick Rude, Dusty Rhodes & Ricky Steamboat, whom were better when they weren't in WWF just like you listed ones that were better when they were there. I assume your statement is based off the fact that Austin was in WCW and ECW before getting big in WWF? Well, so what? Hogan, Nash & Hall were all big in WCW. So, what's the argument that WWF can market wrestlers well? They had nothing to do with Goldberg or Sting or Flair and they made money.

 

You think Jericho hit his highlight in WWF? He was a big name when he came in, WWF didn't do anything. You think McMahon used Cornette well?

[sek69]

History has shown the one thing Vince has talent for is taking advantage of his competitor's stupidness.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

Vince also bought the company -one that was well established in a lucrative market- from his daddy. Figured I'd point that out.

[Loss]

Vince knows how to create stars. Any list of top ten WWF stars ever will have names that were fucking MADE in the WWF. They may not have gotten their START there, but without the WWF they would have been more likely to end up selling foam middle fingers at a concession booth than being legends.

 

HBK, Bret Hart, Austin, Rock, Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Macho Man

I'm going to respond to your post in full more once I'm not at work, savagerulz, but the one main point I want to make is that Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Roddy Piper and Junkyard Dog were all headliners Vince didn't make that he used to launch his expansion. You mentioned Savage specifically and Randy Savage is NOT a Vince McMahon creation. Not even close.

[Guest savagerulz]

"McMahon knew how and when to use Cornette."

 

You lost me there.

McMahon's relationship with Cornette and SMW not only kept him infused with talent (that worked cheaply) at a time when the WWF was holding on, McMahon also allowed Cornette to become a very vocal mouthpiece and cat's paw against not only his competition, but as a way of keeping his OWN employees in line through public humiliation. Fucking genius.

 

"Wrestlers being worked to death. It's better now..."

 

Quoted for emphasis.

Ask the boys if working 3-4 times a week is better, or 8-9. Ask the boys if getting an extra pay day with more pay per views are better. How about making money outside of wrestling. How about getting a cut of merchandise. How about actually having a downside to their contract? How about actually getting to go to rehab when you have a problem instead of them just letting you die, or firing you?

 

1. McMahon outlasted Heyman.

 

 

Which means what exactly. Saying you beat ECW is a pretty pathetic accomplishment considering it only survived as long as it did because McMahon was sinking money into it. And let's just bury this right now. ECW wasn't shit as far as a national promotion goes. Even when they were supposedly giving WCW a run for it's money, WCW wandered over to Australia and drew in 2 shows more than ECW did for half of that year. You're talking about a federation that drew 6000 fans once and a federation that was never even close to making money. They were a regional fed that thought they were more than they really were.

It's amazing. The guy who LOSES the fight is a genius, and the guy who recognized talent enough to use him, get his employees, use his league as a farm team for his own, use his show as a test pilot for his own wrestling show on the same station, and incorporates the ideas and expands them to create the biggest era in wrestling is...yeah.

 

2. McMahon beat Bischoff with Turner's money backing.

 

 

Being not as stupid as your competition doesn't make you a genius.

When your competition was hell bent on driving you out of business, and had limitless pockets to do so, and at one point was the biggest drawing company in history...and you not only survive, but you turn the tables and crush them? It's an amazing story. It's World War II in wrestling form, and deserves praise.

 

3. McMahon beat the territories. To death.

 

 

Again, not being as stupid as your competition doesn't make you a genius. Vince beat the territories because the territories were run by morons who were behind the times. Had said promoters had a clue and banded together we wouldn't be talking about Vince right now.

I know that not knowing any wrestling history and regurgitating everything you've read on inferior wrestling boards is the rage, but really. There were territories that the WWF could not crack. There were territories that you couldn't blow out of their areas with dynomite. 50-75 shares on their local television. The WWF drawing less than 200 paid at house shows in certain areas. The WWF found a way, and it took years, sometimes a DECADE to do so. The stories of how each territory fell are varied and facinating. Needless to say, to do so while you are just holding on financially...and to risk doing a Wrestlemania in the midst of it all...truly staggering and impressive. Less so simplifying the biggest turn in wrestling history to "the guys who lost were all dumb, that's why."

 

Do you know how much VHS tapes ran when most of those promotions were viable? We're talking at least $50 in the 80s for a VHS tape of a wrestling event. I think the WCW tapes ran at around $60. Vince is lucky more than anything that DVD came along and changed the whole home entertainment thing to the point where he could actually use these libraries.

Yeah. He was lucky to get into DVDs. He was lucky to do PPV. He was lucky to see cable as the future. He was lucky to know when wrestling had changed. He was lucky to see the potential in Hogan. He was lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky. That's the story of people who rule their industry. Lucky.

 

Listing his failures is something. But so is this. He overcame them. Business isn't a sprint, or a series of judged events, it's a marathon that never ends. And while he hasn't always led the pack of runners, McMahon is the only runner in the race. And he has determined where the race would be run, and always found a way to pick up the pace when he lagged. He also ran everyone else into the ground.

 

WCW stars were made in WCW too. Sting? Flair? Luger? It works both ways. Hell, I could list wrestlers, like Rick Rude, Dusty Rhodes & Ricky Steamboat, whom were better when they weren't in WWF just like you listed ones that were better when they were there.

True enough, but all the wrestlers you cited in WCW...that's ALL of them, wrestled somewhere else first. If they "were made in WCW" then all of the wrestlers I listed (of which there are MANY more I might add) is WWF made talent as well.

 

You think Jericho hit his highlight in WWF? He was a big name when he came in, WWF didn't do anything.

hahahaha

[sek69]

Wow, savagerulz must work for WWE. I've never seen anyone make such a spirited attempt at turd-polishing.

[Strummer]

JYD almost won the IC title at Wrestlemania.

 

I also don't see how the fact that a handful of wrestlers becoming superstars in the WWF cancels out everything GH listed in addition to the volume of guys Vince tried and failed to make superstars.

The JYD/Valentine match was a throwaway match with no build to further the Santana/Valentine program. JYD never had a long term program over the IC title or any title in the WWF

[Loss]

No need to flame him, sek.

 

 

Anyway, Jericho was the next Rock and they turned him into the next Lex Luger. That's not really making the most out of his talents.