Should I Vote For Jumbo?

[Childs]

But if a wrestler's work doesn't click for you at all, who cares how much thought he or she put into it?

[Jimmy Redman]

Nobody?

 

That's not the point I was making. You don't have to like it or rate it. I just think there's more than one way to "put a lot of thought into" matches.

[Dylan Waco]

On the Toyota discussion, what's the difference between her and Sabu? As mentioned before I'm still deeply immersed in watching footage right now, so my posting is limited. That said I think much of the argument advanced on her behalf could be applied to Sabu, though I would argue Sabu was more influential (if that matters to you) and perhaps controversially I think he sold better.

[Jimmy Redman]

I don't think it's a bad comparison. For me personally the difference is that Toyota was a little more...ambitious I guess? In her style, and her best matches are way better. I appreciate what Sabu does but just don't enjoy the matches as much, to be honest.

[Loss]

Toyota showed in her formative years that she was fundamentally sound and even capable of having great matches without the excesses that would eventually define her. I don't know that Sabu ever demonstrated anything like that. I also don't know that Sabu was really defined by his attempts at breakneck pacing. Toyota was very good in her early years, but she wasn't on track to have a remarkable career until she reinvented herself.

 

Also, around 1995 or so, Toyota started adding tables to some of her matches, but she was winding down (from her critically acclaimed period if not her career) at that point anyway. I think the better comparison than Sabu is Satoru Sayama. They have similar strengths and weaknesses -- almost exactly the same in fact. If you don't see it for Sayama, you probably don't see it for Toyota, and the inverse is likely true as well.

[supremebve]

I'd rate Toyota over Sabu. Sabu may be the wrestler I loved the most in the moment, but can't really stand in retrospect. If I was doing this in 2000, he'd definitely be on my list, but I don't know if he would be in my top 250 right now. Sabu is just too spotty, sloppy, and batshit insane for me to think of him as one of the greatest wrestlers. I loved him as a teenager though.

[WingedEagle]

What Sabu match approaches anything among Toyota's top couple dozen matches? Haven't found it yet. Looking back on a lot of ECW and indy stuff from that era I've found Sabu's matches have held up worse than almost anyone. Set up a table, break the table, meander about for a while until setting up the next table. Rinse and repeat, maybe swapping out the table for another object.

[ohtani's jacket]

I can see the similarities between Toyota and Sabu since they were both darlings of the tape trading scene who were held up as pinnacles of workrate and later maligned for their botched spots, lack of selling and poor psychology, but I think that's where the comparison ends.

 

Toyota, during her peak, was the latest in a long lineage of Joshi workers dating back to the late 70s whose preference was to work the go-go style and who, I believe, made a deliberate choice to work that way to distinguish themselves from the men as athletes. Toyota pushed the bar higher than ever before, but she wasn't as innovative as Sabu. Sabu took ideas from all sorts of territories and meshed them together in a new style that was unlike anything that was happening in the US at the time.

 

Toyota was influential in Joshi as most girls wanted to be like her. Sabu had a wider impact on pro-wrestling overall with workers borrowing more stylistic elements from his matches than Toyota's, and Toyota arguably being influenced by Sabu herself by including table spots in her work. And that was at the height of her acclaim in 1994-95.

 

I can't speak for Sabu's selling. Toyota's doesn't really bug me. I don't really watch her matches for great selling and it's not a major revelation if she doesn't sell what. What bugs me about Toyota is the amount of excess in her big matches from '94-96. I find that period of her work distinctly unenjoyable. She's not alone in that category, though. I think it was a problem with most Japanese wrestling from the late 80s through to the late 90s and would trim the fat off a lot of bouts if I could. I like her stuff from '89-93 and I like quite a lot of her stuff from '97-02 as well. I can't think offhand of what her best selling performance was.

 

The question of whether I think she was great is tricky. I think she was one of the greats of her era and only a handful of women were better. And I think that makes her one of the best workers in the world during that time frame. But when you add in Joshi workers from other eras she starts to drop, and then when you add basically everyone I've ever seen she drops further.

[Dylan Waco]

I agree with most of what OJ wrote about where they would be comparable, but my bigger point was that one of the arguments I've seen advanced for Toyota was that she pushed herself to her physical limits constantly in a way that was completely unique and special. Perhaps that's not the argument and I don't understand it, but I do think if that is the argument it is absolutely something that could be said for Sabu as well.

 

I don't think the issue of whether she had better matches is terribly relevant in the context of that discussion, because the real issue is about whether or not that particular trait is something that can be the defining characteristic of an all time great wrestler, especially if she is deficient in so many areas. I've watched a ton of Toyota in the last few days and it's almost shocking how poor her selling is even by the standards of the go-go Joshi style. To my eyes she has actively hurt every single match she's been in, even if she does have very cool spots, and clearly works as hard as anyone I've seen.

 

If you disagree with that that's fine, but I do think there is an interesting question in the subtext here about why being a great athlete matters for Toyota but not apparently for other wrestlers. If the argument is "it's just the expected way to work in the style and she's great at it," I'd argue that she's especially flawed in key areas even when compared to her peers, but also (and arguably more importantly) that not all styles are created equally. I don't see people talking about John Zandig or Jun Kasai's willingness to slice themselves up with glass and allow things to be stapled to their balls, but they pushed themselves physically, and that was just the nature of the style so shouldn't we appreciate that if accepting a style on it's terms is so important?

[Dylan Waco]

In case you don't like the Sabu comparison for one reason or another, or the death match thing, I think there is very obvious comparisons that can be made between Kurt Angle and Toyota. And I doubt the obvious athleticism, constant drive, and freakish commitment to working hard of Angle would be pointed to as the driving positive that would get him onto ballots.

[supremebve]

In case you don't like the Sabu comparison for one reason or another, or the death match thing, I think there is very obvious comparisons that can be made between Kurt Angle and Toyota. And I doubt the obvious athleticism, constant drive, and freakish commitment to working hard of Angle would be pointed to as the driving positive that would get him onto ballots.

That may very well be the best comparison for Toyota. I currently have Kurt on my list, but now I'm thinking that I should trade them out. When I was thinking about Toyota and her place on my list, I was comparing her to other joshi workers. The way I compiled my list was to look at every nominee and mark who I felt was in contention. I had well over 100 wrestlers so I started doing simple comparisons to narrow it down. Toyota was one of my last cuts, based mostly on her being perhaps my least favorite of the joshi greats that I've watched. I know above I lumped her in with Mil Mascaras and Inoki, but I don't feel the need to ever watch any more Inoki or Mil matches. Toyota isn't in the same box as those two, I'd gladly watch more Toyota. Toyota just does a lot of things that bother me, much like Angle. With that said, I think Toyota is better at the style than Angle is, but I didn't really think of them together until now. Angle is someone I added to my list, because I thought he was someone who overcame all of his faults with pure entertainment value. He was someone who did a lot of nonsense in his matches that didn't really make sense, but his matches were still infinitely watchable. Kurt Angle is essentially the Lil Jon and the Eastside Boyz of wrestling, nothing they do can be considered great, but if "Get Low" comes on 10 years from now I'm still going to like it. I think there is a value to being able to do wrong right, and both Angle and Toyota kind of excel at being ridiculous. I think it was JVK who said that every time he watched Toyota she was essentially an adreneline rush. I think I'm going to put Toyota back on my list and instead of just comparing her to other joshi workers, and start comparing her to the best all action workers.

[Loss]

Not sure Kurt Angle ever did anything as cool as "Get Low".

[WingedEagle]

Angle comp makes a lot more sense than Sabu. Personally find that Toyota's highs vastly exceed Kurt's, but there are certainly similarities between their talents, flaws and styles. I still don't think Toyota gets quite enough credit for her style and doing what she did *when* she did it, as it really looked like an evolutionary jump compared to what was going on at the time.

[Childs]

Again, I'm happy to pay tribute to Toyota as a remarkable athlete. But if, by evolutionary, you mean she pushed the style in a better direction, I'd say she did the opposite. If you only mean that she caused change with the force of her approach, I can't disagree. But for me, that doesn't get her on the list.

[Loss]

What do people think of the Tiger Mask comparison?

[GOTNW]

What do people think of the Tiger Mask comparison?

Where's her UWF run?

[anarchistxx]

Angle makes my list because he has been involved in a ton of enjoyable matches and he was an exciting worker to watch week on week. Brilliant on the mic as well. His matches probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny if I decided to rewatch them and pick them apart.

[Childs]

What do people think of the Tiger Mask comparison?

I see it somewhat, though Sayama's displays of athleticism were more about flashes of speed and leaping ability while Toyota's were more superhuman feats of stamina. Toyota didn't have an exact equivalent to Sayama's surprising UWF run though she did produce some excellent matches working a toned down style. I think Toyota was fundamentally a better wrestler.

[Loss]

 

What do people think of the Tiger Mask comparison?

Where's her UWF run?

 

 

Her 1989-1991 would be an equivalent.

[WingedEagle]

Again, I'm happy to pay tribute to Toyota as a remarkable athlete. But if, by evolutionary, you mean she pushed the style in a better direction, I'd say she did the opposite. If you only mean that she caused change with the force of her approach, I can't disagree. But for me, that doesn't get her on the list.

 

Very different direction. The pros and cons are out there. Leaving her impact on the style aside, her highlights are too great to be discounted by the weaknesses. Now if you don't dig her big matches at all, well, you're not about to find any value in the matches that followed where she & co. pushed things and no one discussing Manami Toyota in 2016 is likely going to be persuaded too much in either direction.

[ohtani's jacket]

I agree with most of what OJ wrote about where they would be comparable, but my bigger point was that one of the arguments I've seen advanced for Toyota was that she pushed herself to her physical limits constantly in a way that was completely unique and special. Perhaps that's not the argument and I don't understand it, but I do think if that is the argument it is absolutely something that could be said for Sabu as well.

 

I don't think the issue of whether she had better matches is terribly relevant in the context of that discussion, because the real issue is about whether or not that particular trait is something that can be the defining characteristic of an all time great wrestler, especially if she is deficient in so many areas. I've watched a ton of Toyota in the last few days and it's almost shocking how poor her selling is even by the standards of the go-go Joshi style. To my eyes she has actively hurt every single match she's been in, even if she does have very cool spots, and clearly works as hard as anyone I've seen.

 

If you disagree with that that's fine, but I do think there is an interesting question in the subtext here about why being a great athlete matters for Toyota but not apparently for other wrestlers. If the argument is "it's just the expected way to work in the style and she's great at it," I'd argue that she's especially flawed in key areas even when compared to her peers, but also (and arguably more importantly) that not all styles are created equally. I don't see people talking about John Zandig or Jun Kasai's willingness to slice themselves up with glass and allow things to be stapled to their balls, but they pushed themselves physically, and that was just the nature of the style so shouldn't we appreciate that if accepting a style on it's terms is so important?

 

We were mostly talking about her work ethic and athleticism in regard to whether she put any thought into her work. I think she put a ton of thought into how she wanted to work. You could argue that she wasn't clever enough to adjust her mindset to different match situations and that there were times when she shouldn't have gone out there with her usual approach. And of course there's always going to be folks who feel she needed to be reeled in (or worse.) I don't think her athleticism and her drive are reasons why people should vote for her. They're simply some positive qualities in light of the criticism of her. They work in Toyota's case where they may not work in others; but I think if people are going to vote for her it will because they can't deny the number of good matches she had. Now if you think she actively hurt every match she was in, she's not going to get within sniffing distance of a list like this.

 

In regard to whether she was worse than her peers, outside of the top handful of Joshi workers can we really say she was worse than Mita, Shimoda, Hasegawa, Otsuka, Cuty Suzuki, Manami Suzuki, Takako Inoue, Ito, Fukuoka, Watanabe, et al.? If she was only the 10th best worker during the interpromotional era, for argument's sake, does that really make her so much worse her peers?

 

And honestly, if you think Joshi is a lesser style, you can pick apart the top candidates just as easily. Kyoko, Hokuto, Aja, Bull, Devil, etc. all had flaws. I can't agree with the not all styles are created equal argument. I don't like the path that takes folks down. They're all wrestling styles and they can all be done well. I firmly believe it's a matter of personal taste.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm perfectly fine with people arguing against the not all styles are created equal point, as long as its consistently reflected in what they say and write. What I have less patience for is the idea that the "master of the style" or "unique genius within the style" argument should be invoked in certain special cases by the style egalitarians, but not in others. Joshi was something that was a major part of hardcore fan consciousness and was a huge part of the Meltzer canon. For that reason I think there is a lot more latitude given to stylistic quirks that would be considered flaws in almost any other context, than there would be if we were talking about comedy wrestling or death match wrestling. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there may be something to the idea that the starting point of "in the canon" allows people to explain away the obvious flaws of someone like Toyota, and in fact turn those flaws into positives.

 

I have no doubt there are people who love Toyota and think she's great. She works a style that I could see many fans of modern wrestling loving. I also don't think it's wrong to ask people to judge or wrestlers withing the style on its own terms, but red flags go up for me when I see arguments for her inclusion that I think would be laughed at if they were put forward for non-Joshi workers.

 

I've watched a lot of Joshi in the last week and was a big fan of it when I was younger as you know. As with any wrestler there are criticisms I could make of any and all of the women I've watched, including the ones who I have come away with a higher opinion of (Devil Masami and Kyoko Inoue mainly). But even as I agree that Toyota is athletically talented, and can be incredibly fun to watch for big parts of matches, I think she's easily the most transparently flawed of any of the big Joshi names.

[ohtani's jacket]

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a slippery slope. The notion that all styles aren't created equal is the type of thing that leads to people saying luchadores are doing it all wrong because lucha doesn't look like bread and butter NWA wrestling, or they don't work their gimmicks into their matches as well as US guys, and therefore the style is inferior. What you're arguing seems to be the opposite side of the coin -- that certain workers get a free ride because "that's the style." My thoughts on the matter are that workers should be judged first and foremost on how good they were within the style they worked. I think it makes more sense to judge Toyota as a Joshi worker than to judge her style based on how people would react to it in different environments. If people don't think Toyota's work is very good within the context of every other girl wanting to work the go-go style then that's cool; but when they start applying some kind of foreign criteria that's when things get iffy. I get the idea of applying universal criteria or even cherry-picking good Joshi; but the idea that the style is fundamentally flawed or fundamentally wrong because it doesn't look the way wrestling should look to an individual person doesn't work for me. Not with the weight of history behind it, and the number of people were involved in shaping it to be the way it is.

 

Anyway this is getting a bit off track. I think you can like or dislike Toyota regardless of how big a Joshi fan you might be or how much interest you have in it, but that doesn't necessarily make a person's criticisms fair or right.

[Dylan Waco]

Because I'm insane I stayed up all night making cuts from my list. I've made some really tough ones. I'm down to 127. Jumbo is still on the list. Still on the fence with what to do with him.

[soup23]

After doing our podcast and talking about this a good bit with Parv, Im leaning towards no for Dylan voting for Jumbo. I think in many ways, this final list will be representative of the voter as the workers that it is presented and I think an accurate portrayal of Dylan having a self admitted block and repulsion to Jumbo is more representative of that viewpoint.