Ranking All Japan Wrestlers

[elliott]

This is an easy-ish topic considering we just finished up GWE so most people's thoughts are probably fleshed out already. Somewhere in the GWE forum Dylan asked if people thought Hansen was the best worker in the history of All Japan. Even ranking ahead of the 4 pillars and Jumbo. I think I chimed in saying I agreed that Hansen was the best All Japan worker basing things just on All Japan and that I was considering Funk as the 2nd best in All Japan's history, ahead of all the usual suspects. Funk's longevity and versatility just looking at his All Japan work is pretty damn impressive actually. His run is basically as long as Kenta Kobashi's. So if you're someone who think's Funk was really fucking awesome in All Japan and Kobashi's work doesn't hold up as well, then ranking Funk ahead of him isn't as crazy as one might think at first.

 

So I'm curious. How would folks rank the All Japan legends based soley on their work in All Japan? No NOAH work or World Traveling or late career New Japan stuff. Just looking at All Japan.

 

The candidates would be:

Jumbo

Baba

Misawa

Kawada

Kobashi

Taue

Akiyama

Tenryu

Hansen

Terry Funk

 

Darkhorse guys are going to be:

Kroffat

Masa Fuchi

Kikuchi

Yatsu

Gordy

Dr Death

Dory Jr

 

Is there anyone post All Japan/NOAH split that we be a candidate for the top 5 workers in All Japan history?

 

I need to think more about it but I would probably rank them something like this:

1. Hansen

2. Terry Funk

3. Jumbo Tsuruta

4. Genichiro Tenryu

5. Giant Baba

6. Toshiaki Kawada

7. Mitsuharu MIsawa

8. Kenta Kobashi

9. Akira Taue

10. Akiyama

 

I could be convinced that the pillars belong above Baba but I've never been higher on Baba and lower on the pillars. I think Baba has more longevity (duration of quality, I'm going to help Dylan make that a thing because it is great) and as many all time great matches as the pillars.

 

Anyway like I said I want to think more about this but I feel good about Hansen & Funk in some order as the 2 best guys in All Japan's history. Anyone else feel the same? How would you rank the All Japan wrestlers based only on their work in All Japan?

[Microstatistics]

1) Jumbo Tsuruta - Mr. All Japan for me and the easy #1. 70s young gun, 80s top guy and 90s grumpy vet all tremendous runs

 

2) Mitsuharu Misawa - The definite ace when the promotion produced some of the greatest wrestling in history

 

3) Genichiro Tenryu - Tremendous 80s and early 2000s stuff

 

4) Terry Funk - Babyface Terry Funk in All Japan is one of my favorite things in wrestling

 

5/6/7) Kobashi/Kawada/Taue - Not much to separate them for 90s All Japan

 

8) Jun Akiyama - Really great in second half 90s and in my opinion is carrying All Japan on his back currently

 

9) Stan Hansen - Bulldozer in the 80s and aging vet in 90s. Tons of great matches

 

10) Giant Baba - Great stuff sprinkled over a few decades

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think there's any argument that could convince me that Hansen and Funk were the two best wrestlers in the history of All Japan. I think that's patently wrong. For that to be true their work would have to be the pinnacle of All Japan and it's not. Jumbo vs. Tenryu in '88-89 blows away anything Hansen did in the promotion during the same time period. The Choshu/Yatsu vs. Jumbo/Tenryu series blows away Hansen's tag work from the 80s. So what are you left with? As far as Funk goes, I'm not convinced he had better matches in All Japan than Billy Robinson. I also haven't seen Baba give a performance remotely close to peak Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi. Those three guys have flaws no doubt about it, but what is this Baba stuff you're high on?

[Zenjo]

Is there anywhere where someone listed Terry Funk's say top 20 greatest matches in his All Japan career. I'm looking at the AJ 80's ballot that I submitted and there's 2 matches in the top 25 featuring Funk. (Jumbo 14, Tenryu 11, Hansen 6, Baba 4). Add in the 70's highlights and I still think you'd be struggling to go beyond a top 10. This is compared to a group of late 80's and 90's workers with the greatest match output in wrestling history. And this was a promotion more than any other that revolved around great matches. Based solely on his AJ career I can't see how Funk could rank top 6.

 

I do agree with the top 10 however. I'd clearly have Jumbo, Tenryu, Hansen, Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi in the #1-#6 bracket. As to the order, I'd probably change my mind from month to month. Tenryu, Hansen and Kobashi all contributed to their legacy in other promotions as well. Jumbo and effectively Kawada had all their careers in AJ, and Misawa all his prime.

 

From #6 to #10 there's Baba, Funk, Taue and Akiyama. From a standpoint of contributions to AJ then Baba is a clear #1 as it's his company. Also one of the smartest workers I've ever seen. Taue was the 4th corner. Funk and Akiyama, again I'm separating AJ from non-AJ output.

 

1) Misawa

2) Kawada

3) Tsuruta

4) Kobashi

5) Hansen

6) Tenryu

7) Taue

8) Baba

9) Funk

10) Akiyama

 

Outside the top 10 I'd also have to mention Choshu. Not an AJ guy for much of his career, but incredible in the time he was there.

[fxnj]

1. Kawada - No brainer as #1 to me. Great as a tag guy I the 80's, all-time great ass kicker and seller in the 90's, and then carries the promotion through much of the 2000's. Basically a 20 year stretch as a guy as you could make a case for as one of the best in the world based solely on work in AJ.

 

2. Misawa - Good as Tiger Mask, really good feuding with Jumbo, and then incredible as the mid-late 90's ace.

 

3. Kobashi - Great as the rookie fall guy in his few years, becomes the best wrestler of AJ's absolutely stellar 1993, and then amazing through the rest of the decade, including several times where he looks like literally the best wrestler of all time.

 

4. Jumbo - I'm not as high on his 70's or 80's work as some others but his 89-92 has to rank as the greatest 4 year stretch ever for a wrestler. Churned out mini-classics on a near weekly basis while elevating a new generation to take his place.

 

5. Hansen - I actually enjoy a lot of his 80's tag work with Brody as two monsters destroying their opponents. Some classics working both with and against Tenryu later in the decade and then a great run in the early 90's, though his output declined sharply after 1994.

 

6. Taue - Holds up his end very well and brings in his own unique contributions when tagging with Jumbo and Kawada in some of the best matches in the promotion's history. An amazing singles wrestler as well in the latter half of the decade.

 

7. Akiyama - The best rookie ever and a tremendous tag guy first with Misawa and then Kobashi. Also one of the best singles guys in the promotion in the past few years before the split. Has also been the main guy holding the promotion together since 2011.

 

8. Baba - The constant of the promotion's prime run from the early 70's to the late 90's. Lots of really good stuff in the promotion's first decade and then plenty of great tags as a part-timer afterwards, showing that he could still hang with the promotion's best even into his 50's and at 60.

 

9. Tenryu - I love what I've seen of him against Choshu, Hansen, and Jumbo in the 80's and what I've seen of his early 2000's. Just haven's seen as many classics from him as the guys above, but his stock could easily rise if I watch more of his return run.

 

10. Fuchi - Great as a junior heavyweight ace and one of the best tag wrestlers in the best 5 years of possibly any promotion ever from 1989-1993. Disappears for much of the latter half of the 90's but still looks great when he shows up and resurfaces as a great old man babyface in the 2000's. Still knows how to be entertaining even today.

 

On Terry Funk, there were some actually pretty great 80's performances that got uploaded onto YouTube (now taken down) that weren't available for the 80's set, including a pretty sweet 1980 Jumbo match. I'd still agree he just doesn't have the sort of volume to match the other guys, though he would easily be #11.

[elliott]

The argument for Terry Funk as the best wrestler in the history of All Japan is going to be pretty much the same argument as Terry Funk as the best wrestler of all time. Obviously he didn't spend 30 years in All Japan so his longevity argument is going to take a hit but the versatility argument remains. Funk's work in All Japan shows incredible depth as he has some of the best singles & tags in the promotion's history. He has classic brawls and title/technical matches both in singles and tags. Funk's resume' in All Japan is much broader than the Pillars even if the Pillars may have reached greater heights.

 

Hansen's case as the best wrestler in the history of All Japan is going to pretty much be the same argument as Hansen as the best wrestler of all time. We're looking for an 18 year period of his career so his longevity argument is largely intact (not saying he was the best or even great for that entire 18 year period or anything, just pointing out the vast majority of his career is in All Japan). His consistency, great matches, peak, etc is pretty much all intact. He loses some terrific stuff like vs Colon and Andre, but really I think there's an argument to be made for Hansen at #1 all time just based on his All Japan run. He's maybe the best wrestler ever in terms of understanding his role and how he should work to best express that role in the ring.

 

I get OJ's point that to be #1 you have to be the pinnacle of the promotion and Funk & Hansen weren't involved in it. I get that argument. And if you think Jumbo/Tenryu or MIsawa/Kawada or Misawa/Kobashi is the pinnacle of the promotion then sure you're going to scoff at the notion of ranking Funk and/or Hansen above all those guys.

 

So a lot of this is going to come down to style preference. I'd concede the argument that Jumbo vs Tenryu is the pinnacle of All Japan. I really don't want to argue against that feud.

 

But...

 

I prefer Hansen vs Kobashi to Misawa vs Kawada or MIsawa vs Kobashi.

I prefer Funk vs Hansen to Misawa vs Kawada or Misawa vs Kobashi. Even the tags which is crazy considering the Dory Jr/Brody factor.

I wouldn't argue Funk Brothers vs Sheik & Abby ahead of Choshu/Yatsu vs Jumbo/Tenryu either, but I prefer those FUnks matches to the big 90s tag stuff. And then when you partner the Abby/Sheik feud with the best matches against Baba & Jumbo, the Robinson & Hoffman match you get a much more interesting picture of tag wrestling than "This time they want 30 minutes, this time they went 40 minutes this time they want 60 minutes."

 

Like I said, this is going to really come down to preference. When I revisited All Japan 90s stuff for GWE I was kind of struck by how much of it wasn't hitting the mark for me. Dylan talking about being down on 90s All Japan really stood out to me because I was thinking about a lot of those same things when revisiting stuff. It really does happen on a match by match basis. There is stuff I still love like Kobashi/Kikuchi vs Kroffat/Furnas match. Hansen/Kobashi. The early Misawa/Kawada matches (I love the 4/93 Carnival match no one ever talks about). But I was rolling my eyes at kickout overkill as early as the famous first 4 Pillars tag on 6/93. I was like "oh fuck, I'm in trouble if I'm hating this." Then I watched 12/93 a few days later and I fucking loved it and thought it held up as an all time great match. That got worse and worse as the decade wore on though. There isn't a Misawa/Kawada singles match I really like after 1994. Oddly enough Misawa/Kobashi 1/97 still hits the mark for me but it is literally the only Misawa/KObashi match I think compares to Hansen/Funk 4/83.

 

I really didn't have those problems watching Funk & Hansen in All Japan. I tend to like the majority of their matches for 10-12 years. And they have the advantage of the matches I don't like being of the 10-20 minute variety instead of the 30-60minute variety of the pillars.

 

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Funk & Hansen are above the pillars.

 

Jumbo & Tenryu are a little tougher.

 

I think Tenryu's run from 85-89 is probably the best 5 year stretch for any worker in All Japan's history. But before that he didn't compare to Funk as a worker from 72-83 + 85 or Hansen from 82-94. If we're looking strictly at peak, yeah Tenryu for sure. But I think its fair to rank Funk & Hansen above Tenryu because there is twice as much quality work and Funk has the variety of work argument as well. I can't forget about 2000 Tenryu which adds another year and maybe 2001 as well but I would need to rewatch more to say for certain.

 

Jumbo is someone I'm conflicted on. I think he was really good as a youngster against more experienced wrestlers. Jumbo keeps up and adds a lot to those matches, but I think it is pretty clear he is being led through matches by those veterans. He was like the best luggage in the world in the 70s. I know that probably comes across as a backhanded compliment. But it really shouldn't. If you're a 4th year wrestler going up against Jack Brisco or Harley Race or Terry Funk in the middle of their prime, those guys should be leading you through the match. So I can't really say Jumbo is better than a guy leading him through matches.

 

Its become a common criticism at this point to say that Jumbo's early 80s is disappointing. I don't think it is awful or anything like that but I'm certainly down on it now that I've seen more of guys like Tatsumi Fujinami, Buddy Rose, El Satanico, Lawler, Bockwinkel, etc than I had 15 years ago. There are definitely some high points for Jumbo. Jumbo Fans will always point to Jumbo vs Kerry as the match even Jumbo Haters can't deny during this time period. But while I love that match, I don't think it's totally insane to have a great match with Kerry Von Erich in 1984 because Kerry had already been in a bunch of great matches and was a great worker by 1984. That match was two great wrestlers having a great match together. Same thing with Rick Martel. Having a great match with guys who have a bunch of great matches to their name isn't some amazing feat. It is great wrestlers having great matches together.

 

My "thing" with Jumbo, is I felt he needed to be pushed to be great and he was more of a reactive wrestler. Funk, Hansen, Choshu, Tenryu, etc are guys who were pushing their matches. Be it pace, aggression or general atmosphere. Jumbo was able to step up and rise to the occasion when Choshu came in and Tenryu turned on him.

 

Thinking about it more philosophically, I think this is another style preference but instead of a wrestling style is a role style. I like the style Jumbo is wrestling against Choshu & Tenryu. I love those feuds/matches and think Jumbo is excellent in them. I prefer the underdog/the rebel/the instigator/the revolutionary. Jumbo always represented the status qo. Perhaps it is because of the booking and what we know about Baba but I always get the impression that Jumbo would have kept wrestling the same NWA Title match style forever if Choshu didn't come in. That's a criticism and it isn't. It could definitely produce great stuff as the best Jumbo matches vs Funk, Flair, Murdoch, Kerry, Martel etc show. But Choshu changed things for the positive and then Tenryu built on tat and took everything to a new level. Jumbo did a great job changing up and reacting to the changes. So while I may not think Choshu & Tenryu are always the "best" wrestler in the matches and I concede that they couldn't play their roles without Jumbo and he stepped up and was the perfect foil for them, I just like what Choshu/Tenryu (and even Yatsu) are doing more. I prefer what they represent and how they manifest that into the match. They're the ones pushing the action and adding aggression and forcing Jumbo to react to it. Jumbo is great reacting to it. But he's still reacting to it. One cool thing about Jumbo's career that Jumbo fans always point to is that 3 stages of Jumbo from young lion to ace to grumpy jumbo. It makes for a great narrative for Jumbo to be GOAT. And it is an easy one to follow. There are clear changes in the way he works over the years. Part of it is age but a lot it is guys pushing him to change. And I really like those guys pushing Jumbo to change.

 

I would rank Jumbo ahead of Tenryu in spite of whatever the fuck that rambling non-sense above was because of the longevity and the fact that he was never bad. There are matches and stretches of his career I don't love and I think his best work is often the result of other people pushing him to another level, but there was never a point in his relevant career that I'd say he was less than a very good wrestler. I can't say the same for Tenryu's pre 85 work.

 

Funk wasn't a guy who was able to alter the style of wrestling like Choshu/Tenryu but on a match by match basis in All Japan, Terry Funk is always the guy pushing the issue. From 72-83, Terry is probably the best guy in every single match he's in. And he's in some of the best matches to ever happen in that time period. So while Jumbo's absolute peak might be better than Funk's I can't really put a guy who spent most of his career as the world's greatest luggage above a guy who was the best wrestler in every match he was in in the company for 12 years.

 

Giant Baba was a case of moving the goal posts a little bit a relying more heavily on longevity. Baba swamps the Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi/Taue/Akiyama in terms of longevity. Obviously there are inherent advantages Baba has in this regard. But at some point you can't really ignore it. I've already indicated I like the Baba/Jumbo vs Funks tags. I really enjoy most of the 70s work you're already going to know about, vs Brisco, vs Robinson, some of the Race stuff, etc. One place we probably differ is I probably love the Hansen/Baba match-up more than anyone. I'm not going to argue any of them are better than the best Misawa/Kawada etc matchup or even better than the best few from the Usual Suspect feuds. But I really really love the Hansen vs Baba series.

[GOTNW]

My enthusiasm for All Japan is at an all time low but might as well do this:

 

1.Misawa

 

-blargh

 

2~3. Kawada

 

2~3.Tenryu

 

I would agree with fxnj's point about Kawada being the best All Japan wrestler in terms of quantity of great matches and sheer longevity. I am more likely to get something out of an average Tenryu performance though, especially when you take into account post-split Kawada.

 

4.Terry Funk

 

This seems ok relative to how highly I rate him as an all timer and how much of his case was made in All Japan.

 

5.Jun Akiyama

 

I'm not sure I can call it better without revisiting their 90s stuff which I have no desire to currently but even in the 90s I find Akiyama a more interesting worker than Kobashi and Taue. He was a semi regular in 2011 and 2012 and has been a full time member since 2013 and during that time has been the best wrestler in Japan. That's longer thank you might think and enough to earn him a top 5 spot for me.

 

6~7. Kenta Kobashi

 

6~7.Akira Taue

 

Something to think about on another day.

 

8.Stan Hansen

 

I like Hansen in tags a lot more than I do in singles matches where he'll do something awesome!! and then walk around. In that sense his poor sight probably hurt the flow of his matches for me.

 

9.Jumbo

 

Where would I rank Randy Orton if he became an undeniably awesome worker and kept that pace for 4-6 years?

 

10.Masanobu Fuchi

 

Best All Japan junior ever. I used to think he was a sketchy singles match worker but I took a focused look at that and-yeah, no. Awesome in tag matches torturing guys. Maybe he should be above Jumbo.

 

 

 

[fxnj]

My enthusiasm for All Japan is at an all time low but might as well do this:

 

The huge 70's footage dump with a bunch of new/rare matches that just went up on YouTube might change that.

[Childs]

 

My enthusiasm for All Japan is at an all time low but might as well do this:

 

The huge 70's footage dump with a bunch of new/rare matches that just went up on YouTube might change that.

 

 

Where's that?

[fxnj]

 

 

 

My enthusiasm for All Japan is at an all time low but might as well do this:

 

The huge 70's footage dump with a bunch of new/rare matches that just went up on YouTube might change that.

Where's that?

This channel

 

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC9MpPz1UWkKBEgBd2j1YXhQ

[Childs]

Awesome, thanks.

[joeg]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Billy Robinson. He had that 3 or 4 year stretch in AJPW that was epic. He was probably the second best guy in AJPW in the 70s.

 

With that said-

 

1- Misawa - the standard bearer for the 2nd generation

2- Hansen- the standard bearer for badass ganjins

3- Terry Funk- probably the best guy during the 70s. Plus all the stuff in the early 80s.

4- Kawada

5- Kobashi

6- Tenryu

7- Jumbo

8- Akiyama- best wrestler of the 3rd generation

9- Taue

10- Baba

[Cap]

My take on these guys has been changing a lot lately. I hadn’t watched much pre 90s All japan until the last 6 months or so. I got the 80s set and really started taking a look at some of the 70s stuff I have access too as well. Right now it would probably look something like this for me if I was looking ONLY at their work in All Japan.

 

 

1. Kobashi – I know he isn’t as popular pick for that top spot, but Kobashi had something about him, something that set his matches apart that you can’t buy. His connection and his ability to deliver in the big matches is otherworldly. Can he go overboard? Oh yea, but there are very few wrestlers I would rather watch. I think he is also a lot better at the nuances in his matches than he sometimes get credit for. To me, some of the best All Japan is the story of Kobashi in All japan.

2. Misawa – On an overall list there are a few other guys I would put above him, but I have really developed an appreciation for the nuances of his work and how so many people depended on Misawa being Misawa to get their own work and characters over.

 

3. Jumbo – Jumbo is a guy I have really learned to love in the past 6 months or so. I know some people don’t buy into him as much, but I really like how he slow builds intensity and anger into his matches when it counts. Most of my favorite jumbo stuff is in All Japan, which really helps his case. He is another guy that would fall behind if I were considering this more broadly.

 

4. Hansen – My number 1 overall, but so much of his case is made in PR, New Japan, and the AWA for me that he slides a little. He gave Kobashi and Kawada two of my favorite matches from them (though Misawa probably gave them the better matches). I never get tired of watching this guy’s AJ stuff. Some of my favorite singles and tag matches from the promotion.

 

5. Kawada – I love Kawada and there are times I think he was the best of the pillars. I think he was probably the most well rounded, a better tag worker than the two I have above him and so good at being great and losing.

 

6. Taue – It is tough to put him any lower than this for me personally right now. Amazing tag worker and has some incredibly strong singles performances. Really stood out a lot not just physically, but in terms of how the matches were laid out and appealed to the audience differently.

 

7. Tenryu – This feels a little like a footage thing for me. I would probably have him higher if I had seen more. I really just have only seen a part of his career.

 

8. Akyama – I like Akyama a lot and I can almost feel myself going through a big Akyama stage in the future. I rarely see a match of his that I outright don’t like. His longevity really helps. If I did this again in a year he might end up higher because I got to see even more Akyama or he may end up lower because I see more high end stuff from Baba or Funk. Tough to say.

 

9. Baba – Another guy I only recently learned to love, but he is one of the smartest wresters I have ever seen. He has some fantastic early matches that I am just getting into and a lot of pop up good matches here and there later.

 

10. Funk – This is another issue of footage for me. I have seen some of his All Japan work, but not all of it. Almost everything I have seen is super high end, so maybe he should be higher as is, but I just couldn’t put him over some of the promotions native mainstays based on what I have seen.

 

11. Robinson – Admittedly, I wasn’t thinking this until I got to Joeg’s post, but it makes sense. Robinson is the guy who made Baba click for me. His stuff with Jumbo is high end and I think he worked that 70s All Japan Style brilliantly. Honestly, it brings a different dynamic and sort of meanness and urgency to it that style.

[I Broke Bruno's Neck]

70's Funk in All Japan made him a legend over there.