WWE New Years "Resolution" PPV

[Loss]

From a booking standpoint, it makes perfect sense.  Edge is floundering, winning some and losing some.  He's got a title shot he can use at any time, but his chances to use it are dwindling.  He sees an opportunity and bang, it works.  Whether they build on it is another matter, but every booking and storyline can not follow perfect patterns.

 

Coffey's right here.  What killed WCW was finances, plain and simple.  If a fan finds it entertaining, he should not be made fun of, especially someone like Coffey who is not a drooling idiot like you make the average fan out to be.  You can be critical, but there are people who nit-pick and scream that everything WWE does reaks of "OMG Death of WCW~!"  It doesn't.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you have no idea what killed WCW and you apparently think WWE is every bit as strong as they were five years ago and that they've never made a single mistake. That's the impression given by all of your wrestling posts anyway. No one is making fun of anyone, Al. The point is that it was a bad booking move and that the past shows plenty of evidence of what happens when dumb decisions like this are made.

 

Wrestling is above criticism. I get it already.

[Loss]

Ok, this shit JUST happened so Im not gonna judge the direction jus yet but I will say this:

 

-Coffy is a wrestling FAN who wanted to be entertained and was intrigued by the aspects of the PPV and The Main Event. No matter how much the IWC or the Smarks or whoever are pissed the WWE marketed this to a certain group of people and if Coffy is any indication then they did so succesfully. I can understand yalls infatuation with buyrates and all that stuff but how many of you complaing (or others complaing) about the outcome they READ actually paid to see the show? How many looked at this thread and said the usual and mightaswellbepatented "Theres a PPV tonight"? Jus because we dont disagree with something that has barely had a chance to set in doesnt mean the WWE isnt doing its job and entertaining a large segment of its fanbase.

You're another person who has no idea what you're talking about. If you're saying I'm not a fan, tell it to my bank account, tell it to the hours I spend every week watching (and enjoying stuff), tell it to the years I've spent following the product, collecting stuff, talking about wrestling and writing about wrestling. This isn't about Coffey, it's about WWE, but a few of you can't seem to grasp that, that it's not about you. We're allowed to disagree with anyone, and I resent you implying that disagreeing with anyone is not allowed somehow.

 

-Edge is a great heel character, and prolly the most over one on the show. His pure assholeness for the next couple of months could make an excellent fued against almost any babyface, if they can find the right face and strike while the irons hot....

Two months before Wrestlemania and they don't have that hot babyface. Do you not see the problem in this?

 

-What wouldve been a better time to cash in the MITB?

Six months ago, prior to the Matt Hardy feud, when Edge still had some semblance of momentum.

 

-Would any of the challengers in the Elimination Chamber really have a better choice and WHY?

Cena retaining was the right decision.

 

-Cena is NOT OVER as the top babyface and something had to be done.

Says who? NOTHING needed to be done. So he was being booed in arenas by half the crowd? Big deal. He wasn't causing those fans not to come to arenas, and he was doing his job bringing plenty of women and children in and selling merchandise like crazy. They probably killed that last night, all because they're more concerned with the pop than the dollar.

 

-Cena was at his best when he was full of piss and vinegar and ready to fuck with anybody and everybody but a while after his face turn and right before he won the WWE Championship he got real lame real quick. His character needs to regain focus and momentum.

Agreed, so let's job the title to a guy with no heat in two minutes??

 

-Why in the hell would anyone compare Edge to Jarret?

Because they're just alike? Because Edge has been in the company since 1998 and they've been trying to elevate him the entire time and it hasn't worked?

 

-Edge in the main event is something the company has been pushing for a long time. It was now or never. Would yall rather he end up like RVD,Booker, Jericho,Christian and the rest ...

He already was like them. If the company is pushing you to be a top guy and after eight years of attempts, you're still not accepted at that level, you're never going to get at that level. He's had more chances than any of those guys ever got, by the way, and they were all more over than him at their peak.

 

-Can we stop saying the WWE is gonna die anyday now jus like WCW cause thats annoying

Can you stop putting words in our mouths and actually read what we say? It reeks of WCW to do a two-minute title change two months before your biggest show of the year because you booked yourself into a corner and now you have to give the belt to a guy with no heat.

[Mad Dog]

I would like to point out how similar this is to the Evolution breakup the night after Orton won the title. I wrote a post minutes after it happened talking about how they just ruined Orton and how awful the booking was. I got post after post telling me I was insane because it was a cool momentand blah, blah. I think Loss was one of the only ones in that thread that agreed with me.

 

Well guess what? It was a cool moment but who was right in the end? Cool moments don't put butts in the seat 2 months from now if you don't build them up. Andre turning on Hogan the day he won the title wouldn't have the same impact as Andre deciding he wants the title after 3 years of Hogan with the belt.

[Marty]

Just some quick replies...

 

Goodhelmet: I never said Lawler-Helms was going to be "good" so much is it had the potential to be the best match on the show, which really ain't saying much. Honestly, I had no hope at all as far as quality of matches go.

 

As for my take on the end booking, it does nothing to help Edge due to the out-of-nowhere feel of it, and the fact that they completely ignored the MITB stip for about the last half-year, if not longer. Loss is moreless 100% right here. Rudo really makes the best point, in that the title switch is only to make up for a shit show. I skipped the show, of course, but last night, at 8:00, I could've popped in my DVD of WM9 and got the same show, judging from reading the results.

[Al]

From a booking standpoint, it makes perfect sense.  Edge is floundering, winning some and losing some.  He's got a title shot he can use at any time, but his chances to use it are dwindling.  He sees an opportunity and bang, it works.  Whether they build on it is another matter, but every booking and storyline can not follow perfect patterns.

 

Coffey's right here.  What killed WCW was finances, plain and simple.  If a fan finds it entertaining, he should not be made fun of, especially someone like Coffey who is not a drooling idiot like you make the average fan out to be.  You can be critical, but there are people who nit-pick and scream that everything WWE does reaks of "OMG Death of WCW~!"  It doesn't.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, you have no idea what killed WCW and you apparently think WWE is every bit as strong as they were five years ago and that they've never made a single mistake. That's the impression given by all of your wrestling posts anyway. No one is making fun of anyone, Al. The point is that it was a bad booking move and that the past shows plenty of evidence of what happens when dumb decisions like this are made.

 

Wrestling is above criticism. I get it already.

WWE has made plenty of mistakes. I stopped watching six months ago because I was sick of the product. But what ultimately doomed WCW wasn't bad wrestling or bad ideas (which they had). It was that they gave large contracts to midcarders that had little impact on the bottom line. At some point, WCW had between 100 and 200 wrestlers on their payroll. That's bad financial management.

 

Wrestling is not above criticism. But there are people convinced that every single move and show WWE produces is bad. At some point, you have to look at this company and wonder if everything is so poor, why aren't other wrestling promotions taking their place? WWE can stay in business for years based on their video library and international draws. When business slows, unlike WCW, they are perfectly capable of scaling back expenses.

 

I doubt many people are going to buy a show or a ticket based on who is the reigning champion. If Edge is an effective heel, fans will feel that he stole the title. If you don't agree with the booking that's your perogative, but there are certainly logical reasons behind this move. That Edge used his briefcase against Flair is all the tip off the average fan should need that something may happen later. After all, this was the most logical move for Edge to make since Wrestlemania, and most of us predicted it would happen.

[Loss]

WWE has made plenty of mistakes. I stopped watching six months ago because I was sick of the product. But what ultimately doomed WCW wasn't bad wrestling or bad ideas (which they had). It was that they gave large contracts to midcarders that had little impact on the bottom line. At some point, WCW had between 100 and 200 wrestlers on their payroll. That's bad financial management.

This is not true. The guaranteed contracts had nothing to do with WCW's demise. It's just that those contracts were too high when business took a downturn. In 1996, 1997 and 1998, WCW main eventers were definitely not overpaid. In fact, in 1999, Steve Austin made more money than any of them ever made and I'm sure Rock, HHH and Undertaker have had years where they've made more than the highest paid guy in WCW as well. If WCW was financially mismanaged, which it was, it was only because they were making the same amount of money in 1999 when business was in the toilet. At that point, they were overpaid. But considering the other expenditures WCW had, payroll was not that big of a deal.

 

Wrestling is not above criticism. But there are people convinced that every single move and show WWE produces is bad.

I realize that, but I am not one of those people, and neither is anyone who posts here. I've praised many things they've done, but I also think it's only fair to point out when they do something silly as well. And the whole point of a message board is to debate and discuss. Coffey's opinion is welcome, yours is welcome ... and mine is welcome.

 

At some point, you have to look at this company and wonder if everything is so poor, why aren't other wrestling promotions taking their place?

There are a myriad of reasons why this isn't the case, and most revolve around decisions that television executives make regarding what ends up on their stations, and none of it has to do with the content of television of any competing organization. There is no other organization in a position to be competitive with WWE. TNA is closest, but they're doing studio wrestling late night on Saturdays. And hey, that's the kind of wrestling I grew up on, and I have no problem with it at all, but there are probably hundreds of answers for the question you posed that in no way reflect positively on WWE.

 

WWE can stay in business for years based on their video library and international draws. When business slows, unlike WCW, they are perfectly capable of scaling back expenses.

So you do admit that business has slowed. If not for the international shows and DVD sales, they would be losing money hand over fist right now. Domestically, their business is at a pretty scary low level right now. I'll never say WWE is financially mismanaged, but where we seem to disagree is that you seem to think that the popularity of WWE is entirely related to outside factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the product, and I totally disagree with that.

 

I doubt many people are going to buy a show or a ticket based on who is the reigning champion.

So you're saying Steve Austin would have been a huge draw even if he had never won the title? Or that people would still be turned off by HHH as a midcarder? It's the champ and the headlining match that sells the shows. Shows are headlined by world champions.

 

Cena is practically dead unless they do a quick switch back to him in the next month or two, and even then, things won't be the same. His merchandise sales are about to fall considerably, considering that his big catchphrase is "The Champ Is Here" and he has all sorts of belt-related merchandise. They really shot themselves in the foot here.

 

If Edge is an effective heel, fans will feel that he stole the title.

Disagreed. Edge was put in the position heels like Jericho, Angle and JBL have been put in before him, where they were given the top title on a whim, they weren't given enough build to be effective in that role, and it ended up hurting their careers. If Edge is an effective heel, instead of just seeming like he stole the title, it will seem like even though the fans hate him, he is a worthy champion and they sure wish someone would take the belt from him just to shut him up. If the only factor is that Edge stole the title, why not put Stevie Richards or Gene Snitsky or even Maria in that role?

 

If you don't agree with the booking that's your perogative, but there are certainly logical reasons behind this move. That Edge used his briefcase against Flair is all the tip off the average fan should need that something may happen later. After all, this was the most logical move for Edge to make since Wrestlemania, and most of us predicted it would happen.

They waited so long to pull the trigger, and there was a time when he had some semblance of momentum, but he traded wins with Kane back and forth in bad matches with no heat for months and then did the same in a very underwhelming feud with Matt Hardy before getting injured and having to do promos to stay in the picture, which he's not particularly good at. 2005 should have been his year - I won't disagree with that, as I said it at the beginning of the year myself - but it wasn't, and it's too little, too late.

[Mad Dog]

Edge's potential as a main eventer died well before Mania last year. Jobbing to HHH in Japan and then having to give his job back to Michaels killed his hopes of being a drawing main eventer.

 

WWE can stay in business for years based on their video library and international draws. When business slows, unlike WCW, they are perfectly capable of scaling back expenses.

They've cut back about as much as they can. Plus they have stockholders who they have to pay dividends too.

 

But here's an idea how bad it is in the WWF right now. They can't run shows without taking a loss in MSG right now. The company is in serious trouble when they can't even draw enough of a gate in their home arena to cover the rental fee.

 

Where I live there used to be a rabid fanbase and it was impossible to get tickets. I went to a show a couple of years ago and they drew maybe 3000 fans in an arena that holds 12,000. And that was in 2003. I think they've actually stopped coming to my city due to poor attendence.

[Loss]

That was compounded even more when he lost a title match to Batista after winning the Gold Rush tournament last summer.

[Marty]

Where I live there used to be a rapid fanbase and it was impossible to get tickets.  I went to a show a couple of years ago and they drew maybe 3000 fans in an arena that holds 12,000.  And that was in 2003.  I think they've actually stopped coming to my city due to poor attendence.

The last house show that we in Ottawa had drew a whopping 1,300, if I recall correctly. Not good.

[anarchistxx]

Jesus Christ people, Coffey was entertained. If people are entertained than buyrates will go up. So you telling him he knows fuck all about the business and what put WCW down (And quite frankly, you probably don't either) is ridiculous.

 

And those complaining, you'd be complaining if Cena had retained. or if Masters had won. Or if Caerlito had won. Or if Angle had won. Or if HBK had won. Or if Kane had won. You're seemingly never happy. At least it had some shock value, and yes, in my opinion, will make a lot more people tune into Raw tomorrow night, than if Cena had predictably retained. So yes, it will probably entertain me, and bring in ratings.

 

I think it was absolutely the right move. It would have made no sense for Edge to cash in at a PPV when Cena was fresh and ready. It made perfect sense for him to cash in now when Cena has just had a gruelling match. For people that drone on about the WWE's 'booking decisions not making sense', you've sure been quick to shit on this one.

 

Sorry to be having a go, but your constant negativity towards whatever the WWE does is ridiculous. If Rey mysterio won the World Title you'd be complaing about a bad finish or something.

[anarchistxx]

And Loss, I enjoy your posts but I really think you should stop acting superior in this thread.

 

Telling people that they have 'no idea what they are talking about', they probably know the same facts as you but have formed a different opinion on them. Just because you've watched thousands of matches doesn't mean you always know better.

[Guest Big Papi]

So you telling him he knows fuck all about the business and what put WCW down (And quite frankly, you probably don't either) is ridiculous.

Of course they "know." They read the book.

 

I realized something while reading this thread: wrestling fans suck. I suck as a fan, you suck as a fan. We all suck. Well, most of us suck. I wish I could be like Coffey. I'm sick of thinking about buyrates, ratings, merchandise sales, stock dividends and the death of WCW. I love the Buffalo Bills. I don't give a shit about season ticket sales, parking revenue or stadium lease agreements. All I care about are the players and what happens on the field. I wish I could feel the same about wrestling.

 

I'll give Edge a shot. At least it's something different.

[Guest Mike Campbell]

Just because it seems like there's no direction with the title change, doesn't mean there won't be any. Here's a few things I've considered.

 

- Edge vs Flair and Edge vs Cena both seem like the obvious match. Be it tonight, at the Rumble or both.

 

- When Edge and Michaels were feuding last year, Michaels said his goal was to keep Edge from reaching *his* goal of being World Champion. Edge has gold now, so there's an obvious route to play off.

 

- Edge really doesn't have any allies on RAW (unless you wanna count Snitsky an Lita). So there isn't any reason why Angle, Kane, Big Show, Shelton, HHH, etc wouldn't start gunning for him, since Cena is off the hook now.

[Guest Bruiser Chong]

So you telling him he knows fuck all about the business and what put WCW down (And quite frankly, you probably don't either) is ridiculous.

Of course they "know." They read the book.

 

I realized something while reading this thread: wrestling fans suck. I suck as a fan, you suck as a fan. We all suck. Well, most of us suck. I wish I could be like Coffey. I'm sick of thinking about buyrates, ratings, merchandise sales, stock dividends and the death of WCW. I love the Buffalo Bills. I don't give a shit about season ticket sales, parking revenue or stadium lease agreements. All I care about are the players and what happens on the field. I wish I could feel the same about wrestling.

 

I'll give Edge a shot. At least it's something different.

How are those fans any different from the ones that all but refuse to speak negatively about anything the company's doing? When I was still watching, there were parts of me that wished for the days of just enjoying the product. But there's also a point where using the "ignorance is bliss" line of thinking becomes foolish. These fans act like being informed and knowledgable about their hobby is wrong.

 

For me, the enjoyment of the product wasn't really altered by the technical aspects and backstage happenings. I was genuinely into the product and didn't let those things affect that. When the product began to suck and more things came to light, both on and off-screen, that suggested why that was, I paid more attention to them. If the product's of good quality, I'm not going to usually let outside factors ruin that. Just because some people want to be rubes about things and find ways to justify anything WWE does doesn't necessarily make those who don't pessimistic assholes.

[Guest TheShawshankRudotion]

A football teams primary objective is not to bring in fans, it's to win a game, so why would football fans care about ticket sales? You DO, however, hear football fans bitch and complain about trades, performances, coaching, etc. Hi, there's a term "armchair quarterback", for crying out loud. A wrestling company's primary objective is to bring in fans. Wrestling fans looking at how wise a companies move in terms of how it relates to the fans, buyrates, ticket sales, etc. is doing the same as football fans looking at a companys move and how it relates to the team winning.

 

I hate fans that think "I enjoy'd it" some how makes it good, or justifiable. As if _their_ enjoyment is the ultimate standard for a company and means so goddamn fucking much. I'd say there is more self-importance in something like that than in what Loss is doing right now in his heel turn/"discussion enhancement talent".

[Slasher]

Wow I agree with a Cubs fan! The apocalypse is coming! Bruiser is correct though, that not everyone who knows what's going on would be negative about things unless the negativity is BECAUSE of what's going on backstage. Triple H gets a year long reign. A rube hates it because it means a guy they hate has the belt for a long time but the informed fan would hate it because HHH probably lobbied out of dropping the belt at least twice during the course of the title reign. Does it change the fact that the reign was bad? No.

[Loss]

Jesus Christ people, Coffey was entertained. If people are entertained than buyrates will go up. So you telling him he knows fuck all about the business and what put WCW down (And quite frankly, you probably don't either) is ridiculous.

When did I say that? Are you here to debate the topic at hand or put words in my mouth? And since when is it okay for one person to voice an opinion, but the second I do so, I'm the one with the problem? Do you even notice the hypocrisy there?

 

And Coffey is entertained by everything. He still thinks WWE is great.

 

But let's ignore that the popularity of the company has plummeted because that might ruin the feel good moment.

 

And those complaining, you'd be complaining if Cena had retained. or if Masters had won. Or if Caerlito had won. Or if Angle had won. Or if HBK had won. Or if Kane had won. You're seemingly never happy. At least it had some shock value, and yes, in my opinion, will make a lot more people tune into Raw tomorrow night, than if Cena had predictably retained. So yes, it will probably entertain me, and bring in ratings.

For one night, possibly. Just like Jericho did winning the title, and it did absolutely nothing for him or the company in the long run. I would not have complained if Cena retained. There's proof of that in other threads with me even saying I thought he should retain going into this show, but apparently, you'd rather make sweeping generalizations.

 

I think it was absolutely the right move. It would have made no sense for Edge to cash in at a PPV when Cena was fresh and ready. It made perfect sense for him to cash in now when Cena has just had a gruelling match. For people that drone on about the WWE's 'booking decisions not making sense', you've sure been quick to shit on this one.

It made sense. Fine. It was a stupid move. Edge is nowhere near over enough to be the top heel at this stage.

 

Sorry to be having a go, but your constant negativity towards whatever the WWE does is ridiculous. If Rey mysterio won the World Title you'd be complaing about a bad finish or something.

If you want to pretend the company is still as successful as they've ever been and that they've never made mistakes, that's your decision. But don't expect others to do the same.

[Guest Big Papi]

Good points, guys. I suppose the football comparison is like apples to oranges. I guess I just want to enjoy wrestling at it's most basic level, whats on tv, and I don't want to feel like a "rube" for doing so.

[Loss]

And Loss, I enjoy your posts but I really think you should stop acting superior in this thread.

 

Telling people that they have 'no idea what they are talking about', they probably know the same facts as you but have formed a different opinion on them. Just because you've watched thousands of matches doesn't mean you always know better.

They don't know the same facts as me or they wouldn't be making such asinine statements. I'd venture that neither one of them has read The Death of WCW, because anyone who had would never say some of the things said in this thread.

[Loss]

At least it's something different.

When people start saying "at least it's ...", that means it sucks pretty hard.

[Loss]

The way I look at it is this. If you want to just enjoy everything about the product and leave it at that, fine, but why sign up for a wrestling message board, where the point is to discuss and debate?

[Mad Dog]

I've been trying to come up with a comparison of someone from the past winning the world title. The best I've been able to come up with is Kevin Sullivan. So basically Edge winning last night would've been like Kevin Sullivan showing up in 89 and beating Ricky Steamboat when he started to bomb as champion.

[Slasher]

I had a conversation with Al about the death of WCW. I actually attributed it to Hulk Hogan. He's involved in everything that went wrong with WCW, directly and indirectly. Do you agree, Loss?

[kjh]

Edge was put in the position heels like Jericho, Angle and JBL have been put in before him, where they were given the top title on a whim, they weren't given enough build to be effective in that role, and it ended up hurting their careers.

Bingo. The comparison to Jericho is particularly apt, as Edge is probably just a placeholder champion to keep the belt warm for a bigger star (Cena or Hunter) to take it from him in a few months max, just like Jericho 5 years ago.

[Mad Dog]

I had a conversation with Al about the death of WCW. I actually attributed it to Hulk Hogan. He's involved in everything that went wrong with WCW, directly and indirectly. Do you agree, Loss?

WCW died because Turner execs cancelled Nitro and Thunder. Had that event not happened WCW would still be here.