Where the Big Boys Play #88 - Superbrawl III

[JerryvonKramer]

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-88-superbrawl-iii/

 

 

Chad and Parv are back to look at Superbrawl III, before doing so Chad runs through his Observer Hall of Fame ballot.

 

- Wrestling Observer round up [0:25:09]: extra packed edition featuring Bill Watts resigns, Jim Ross stripped of power, WCW's new corporate hierarchical structure, valuing the worth of managers in contractual terms, Johnny B. Badd's contract, and much, much more.

 

- Review of Superbrawl III [1:33:19]: the sparks fly between Jesse Ventura and Tony Schiavone, assessing Max Payne, Flair is back!, Paul Orndorff: underrated in 93?, and, of course, the White Castle of Fear.

 

- End of Show Awards [2:28:21]

[BrianB]

Gotta finish the show, still going through the observer section and this whole WCW era before Bill Shaw left and Bischoff reallybecame very secure is such a mess, but here's some follow-ups.

 

Sharon Sidello was dating and living with Ole Anderson around this time period and had a marketing background from working at Turner. I believe she is the one responsible of these WCW's mini-movies--not sure about Spin the Wheel Make the Deal--but the White Castle of Fear, the Masters of the Powerbomb Crash the Party, etc. 1993 mini-movies were hers. And supposedly she de facto ran WCW while they were transitioning from Watts and then Bischoff was hired and took over more. Dave Meltzer talked some about this on The Lapsed Fan podcast for Starrcade 1993 I think. There's a funny bit he talks about regarding Ole hated working in WCW management around this time period and sitting in on these board meetings because he knew better than anyone else, since he was seeing her, that she didn't know anything (no surprise someone like Ole would say that, but pretty hilarious nonetheless.)

 

(they touch on this subject after about 12:45)(Dave also touches some on what WCW higher-ups were thinking and why Bischoff got the job--basically what you guys said, that he had more of a television background and pitched himself that way.)

 

I'm sure others can add more about Sidello.

 

 

Anybody who hasn't watched or recently re-watched the white castle of fear mini movie, here's a youtube link featuring the intro from WCW Saturday Night with Ross and Larry. Larry's stone face is absolutely brilliant.

Fun pod so far guys! Looking forward to finishing it over the weekend.

[SteveJRogers]

Managers in the WON HOF:

First class of 1996

Freddie Blassie (also a Wrestler)

Jim Cornette (also Promoting)

Bobby Henenan (also Commentating)

Billy Sandow (also Promoting)

WOW, the Observer didn't put another Manager in until 2012 and Captain Lou Albano (also in as a Wrestler), and there hasn't been one since!

 

Jimmy Hart does belong on that level.

[JerryvonKramer]

Geat info guys thanks. Why would they ever put Sidello in charge of anything wrestling related? The whole structure is completely wrong-headed.

 

Also I find it weird that Grand Wizard has never been on the ballot. He was a major part of The Sheik drawing heat in Detroit and Toronto and then formed one of the best manager-wrestler combos in terms of drawing and heat with Billy Graham in WWWF. Vince Sr relied on the three wise men to carry a lot of the tv promos to draw in all his key markets for a decade. Wizard managed a lot of the major challengers. He was more of an enhancer, a manager who'd never overshadow the talent.

[SteveJRogers]

Maybe its that second thing that WON voters expect you to have. Be a second, but also be the guy running the promotion or a major position in the booking hierarchy or an iconic guy at the announcing table, or a well regarded wrestler in your own right.

 

Does seem like there could be a basis there for those who are "just a manager role" in their time in the business.

[soup23]

Thanks for the background involving Sidello.

[SteveJRogers]

FWIW, there are a number of Commentary only and Promoting only inductees, so I don't know why Manger/Valet only seems to be a dual inductee.

[SteveJRogers]

You are not going to retire the Jim Ross Center Stage outro?

 

Nothing wrong with it, but pretty soon with both him and Watts gone, its going to be akin to Face Hogan in the Nitro open for months into the nWo run!

[JerryvonKramer]

You are not going to retire the Jim Ross Center Stage outro?

 

Nothing wrong with it, but pretty soon with both him and Watts gone, its going to be akin to Face Hogan in the Nitro open for months into the nWo run!

I've been thinking about that. We've had it since day 1.

 

Whatever happens, Dr Tom Miller stays in the intro, but I'm not entirely opposed to changing the outro.

[bradhindsight]

You guys had the outro before you got the Watts era, keep it on after - don't see why you'd remove it. I love that it caps each podcast.

[BigBadMick]

So Vader-Sting at SuperBrawl is WCW's best until Guerrero-Mysterio at Havoc 97?

 

Damn you Chadley - you're absolutely right. That said, plenty of good and great stuf in the meantime, just not top notch MOTY calibre work.

 

Where would the strap match slot in to your best of 92 list?

[soup23]

I would have the strap match behind the Beach Blast iron man and WarGames. Above everything else.

[BigBadMick]

Cool. Anything above it from Wcw in 1990 or 91? Just to round out the decade so far....

[BigBadMick]

Same question to you as well, Parv...

[soup23]

Cool. Anything above it from Wcw in 1990 or 91? Just to round out the decade so far....

 

It and WarGames 91 and Lex vs. Flair WrestleWar 90 are really close probably have WarGames 91 ahead of it slightly and the Luger/Flair match behind it.

[JerryvonKramer]

*****

 

1. Sting, Barry Windham, Dustin Rhodes, Ricky Steamboat & Nikita Koloff vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton & Larry Zbyszko (5/17/92)

2. Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude (6/20/92)

3. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner & Scott Steiner vs. Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham & Sid Vicious (2/24/91)

 

****3/4

 

4. Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude (2/29/92)

5. Arn Anderson and Larry Zbysko vs. Ricky Steamboat and Dustin Rhodes (11/19/91)

6. Arn Anderson vs. Barry Windham (6/6/92)

7. Sting vs. Vader 2/21/93)

8. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger (2/25/90)

9. Sting vs. Vader (12/28/92)

[BigBadMick]

Thanks lads.

[soup23]

Aw snap good call Parv as I forgot the Clash 17 tag, that would be above the strap match for me as well.

[BrianB]

Nice episode guys. Really enjoyed it. I also enjoyed Benoit and Scorpio. I'm a bit surprised you didn't comment on the crowd during the match. There's a weird racial element to them cheering Benoit over Scorpio, imo. Benoit was still developing his heel mannerisms I thought, and you could tell some in this match. I'd also agree that the match in places...I wouldn't call it go-go quite as much as choreographed. Still, it's quite a good match and I vascillate between both your ratings for it whenever I see it again. Just depends on my mood, I guess. I think this match is a bit close to a hidden gem because I don't recall seeing it on the Turner Home Video release. The Cactus-Orndorff match was on that--not sure if it was cut down any though--but it definitely seems weirdly overlooked on the IWC, I'd agree, despite Meltzer giving it a strong 4 star rating.

 

Maxx Payne is way better than PN News! I'm not saying he's good but PN News was dreadful. Good call on riding Dustin for really not working that match in a way where it would even be halfway decent. I also thought it was weird that Payne would play the national anthem--kind of a face move, no? His promo was atrocious though. I always looked at his gimmick and look as more like late 80s guns n roses metal rather than grunge, since he's not weird as plaid and while he's a bit of a slob, his look and general attire looks consciously styled. I think Chad has a big bias against "git-tars" in wrestling (I'm from the south myself, but couldn't help but chuckle...no offense intended.) Payne isn't Hendrix or Slash, but unlike MC Hammer, it looks like he could actually play, right?

 

I'm glad you both commented on the pacing. It definitely drags in some parts, but personally speaking this full show has always worked for me from that pov. The white castle of fear inserts are weird, but Cactus really energized the show back up by showing up with the shovel. I also liked the SMW tag a good bit, and didn't think the Muta-Windham match was quite as bad as either of you, though I didn't think it was good. Was this the match where Muta supposedly had the flu or was that Starrcade 1992? I thought they tried to work it more like a 70s NWA title match, and the crowd didn't really get to into it and wouldn't fully accept Windham as the heel.

 

I never know how to rank the Vader-Sting singles trilogy. Maybe we should get a poll going as I can see arguments for favoring all 3. This was the first match of the 3 I ever saw, which might be why I always put at #1 or #2, but I can see valid arguments for putting any of the 3 number 1, 2, or 3. It seems like some consensus has emerged for Flair-Steamboat; I'm curious if the same thing is there for Sting-Vader.

 

Parv...I think you may need to re-watch your gangster movies, or it's just been awhile. The Goodfellas reference was part of the way there (although Nicky does get "made" briefly) but Donnie Brasco...not so much. I think you meant to say like you were overlooked Lefty (Pacino) in the mafia to the overpushed Sonny Black (Michael Madsen).

[soup23]

Goodfellas is my favorite movie, I saw Donnie Brasco once drunk off my ass. I had no idea what Parv was getting at.

 

Thanks for the feedback Brian. Payne is at least competent on the guitar so he has that going for him but he just rubbed me the wrong way in every instance on this show and I don't remember his entire run much more fondly.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interesting thoughts Brian, I liked reading your takes. I feel the same re: Payne / PN News, which is why I was a bit shocked at Chad's answer to that question. PN News is like bottom 10 worker we've seen on WTBBP, only Motor City Mad Man, Giant Gonzalez, and Master Blaster Iron are clearly below him. And when we're talking about guys like Ranger Ross, Van Hammer, Nightstalker, 83 Billy Graham or 91-2 Jimmy Jam Garvin above that level, that's a pretty low bar. PN News was atrocious.

 

Isn't the general consensus that the strap match is the #1 out of the Sting vs. Vader trilogy? Or is it the Starrcade match?

 

I watched Donnie Brasco when I was 17 and my girlfriend (now ex-wife!) moaned all the way through it that it was boring. I've just realised that was 17 years ago. Makes me feel a bit old. Probably due a rewatch.

 

I think the WCW corporate stuff fried my brain on this show. I was all over the place ("Starrcade", not being able to remember Johnny Depp's name, etc.).

[BrianB]

Goodfellas is my favorite movie, I saw Donnie Brasco once drunk off my ass. I had no idea what Parv was getting at.

 

Thanks for the feedback Brian. Payne is at least competent on the guitar so he has that going for him but he just rubbed me the wrong way in every instance on this show and I don't remember his entire run much more fondly.

 

From what he was saying, I think he was trying to analogize to the deserving guy passed over and screwed, often in favor of somebody else not as good.

Donnie Brasco isn't Goodfellas, but it's a good flick. I'd rec it for a re-watch. Pacino is good. Depp isn't cartoony and puts forth a serious effort, and if you enjoy mafia and undercover stuff the plot and setting should be a nice fit. It's well crafted imo.

 

And no worries. I know some people remember him more fondly. I'm not a big fan myself. Some of his Johnny B Badd stuff is alright, but I've rarely enjoyed any of his matches beyond being angle props. I can completely understand burying him.

 

 

Interesting thoughts Brian, I liked reading your takes. I feel the same re: Payne / PN News, which is why I was a bit shocked at Chad's answer to that question. PN News is like bottom 10 worker we've seen on WTBBP, only Motor City Mad Man, Giant Gonzalez, and Master Blaster Iron are clearly below him. And when we're talking about guys like Ranger Ross, Van Hammer, Nightstalker, 83 Billy Graham or 91-2 Jimmy Jam Garvin above that level, that's a pretty low bar. PN News was atrocious.

 

Isn't the general consensus that the strap match is the #1 out of the Sting vs. Vader trilogy? Or is it the Starrcade match?

 

I watched Donnie Brasco when I was 17 and my girlfriend (now ex-wife!) moaned all the way through it that it was boring. I've just realised that was 17 years ago. Makes me feel a bit old. Probably due a rewatch.

 

I think the WCW corporate stuff fried my brain on this show. I was all over the place ("Starrcade", not being able to remember Johnny Depp's name, etc.).

 

Thanks, Parv.

 

I think opinions vary? I've heard lots of people trumpet GAB 92 because it's one of the standout major US promotion matches where the monster heel crushes the top face. A forerunner to summerslm 2014 is what I've often seen it compared to. Though I'd say GAB92 is more competitive and better as a match. I think Meltzer rated Starrcade 1992 as the highest of the 3, and the 3rd has sometimes been called the best strap match ever, which is sort of a backhanded compliment. Plus, some people take issue with the non-title and the finish. edit: This one is the first one I saw growing up, which could be a factor, but it's also the one I like the most. It's just so brutal. This was one of those matches that when I was a young kid and renting video tapes made me think...well WWF may be fake, but WCW is real. haha. Additionally I think it might have a sneaky blade job from Harley Race on Vader, given how Vader's back cuts are so neatly lined and show up not long after Harley weirdly motions on his back.

 

IMO, Donnie Brasco is definitely worth a re-watch. I'll always favor the major Scorsese movies 1st because they're just brilliantly directed and crafted, and have that nice depth to them when you start to peel away at the choices made, but Donnie Brasco is definitely a solid movie.

 

I know what you mean about WCW at this time. It's such a cluster. Part of the reason I became an observer subscriber was I started to re-watch and watch lots of this post-87 of WCW and it's just such a mess....I had to figure out what was going on backstage. It's a total cluster. I've always gotten the impression they didn't, at first anyway, as neatly divided it as you guys did on the show. And so, the people running TV might just be running the announcers and camera crew and presentation while the wrestling and booking would be run through other people...which obviously can't work over any length of time. I think Bischoff has said in some shoots that he didn't realize how involved he needed to get into the booking and writing aspect at first after he got the big job; I'lll be curious to hear your assessment of that over this period, as I think most hardcore fans see the quality of the product having some major falloffs for lots of Eric's run before the nWo.

[PeteF3]

Payne is a bit of an oddity to me. The dude was actually loaded with tools:

 

- Legitimately massive dude. Good look despite Chad rightfully shitting on his ring attire here.

- Amateur wrestling star at Iowa State.

- Trained in the NJPW dojo.

- A unique gimmick of a guitar player who could legitimately play.

 

But, clearly, he never put it together to become even a decent worker. He's like the wrestling equivalent of a super-athletic "toolsy" prospect in baseball that scouts would love but never actually produced any results.

 

I do, in spite of myself, rather enjoy the Badd Blaster-centric feud with Johnny B. Badd, and their angle at the next Clash.

[Loss]

Geat info guys thanks. Why would they ever put Sidello in charge of anything wrestling related? The whole structure is completely wrong-headed.

 

My understanding is that they thought Watts was so abrasive and hard to work with that they decided their problem had been listening to too many "wrestling" people. They went in the extreme opposite direction as a conscious choice. They didn't like having drunk fans. They didn't like having a hardcore base that was so vocal about everything. In other words, they hated wrestling. To me, Watts going represented a major tipping point in American wrestling. It showed how bad of a job everyone -- including Vince to an extent, but everyone -- did to build for the future.

[bradhindsight]

I feel like with the bar Sting and Vader had already set, Orndorff is my top performer on the show. Really creative limb work in the scope of a falls count anywhere/No DQ match. He was great.

 

That Cactus match has to be the most under-talked about **** match ever. Completely agree with that rating also.