El-P Posted March 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2018 So, apparently, Coachman was one of the harassing types in ESPN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 7, 2018 Report Share Posted March 7, 2018 So, apparently, Coachman was one of the harassing types in ESPN. That seems to be a requirement for employment at ESPN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 18, 2018 Report Share Posted March 18, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 18, 2018 Report Share Posted March 18, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this, did the crowd cheer? did anyone including yourself get up and leave out of offence? Really people know the deal when it comes to pro wrestling and they know these people are working a performance so anyone in the ring or around it is obviously in and consenting on whatever is happening to them. If the same thing happened to a woman in line at the concessions then the same people cheering would probably react quite differently because what happens in reality is not played by the same rules as in the world of pro wrestling. Still I agree it's a spot that younger talent should probably not take up as the world is changing but an old timer now like Tatanka working with a consenting valet is not something I think is a big issue. If anyone over the age of 12 has their morals or actions swayed by doing something done in a wrestling show then they obviously have something seriously wrong with them and any parent that doesn't explain or communicate what the difference between the wrestlers performing things in a show and how they should act in reality is, then they probably shouldn't be taking their kids to wrestling shows either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this, did the crowd cheer? did anyone including yourself get up and leave out of offence? Really people know the deal when it comes to pro wrestling and they know these people are working a performance so anyone in the ring or around it is obviously in and consenting on whatever is happening to them. If the same thing happened to a woman in line at the concessions then the same people cheering would probably react quite differently because what happens in reality is not played by the same rules as in the world of pro wrestling. Still I agree it's a spot that younger talent should probably not take up as the world is changing but an old timer now like Tatanka working with a consenting valet is not something I think is a big issue. If anyone over the age of 12 has their morals or actions swayed by doing something done in a wrestling show then they obviously have something seriously wrong with them and any parent that doesn't explain or communicate what the difference between the wrestlers performing things in a show and how they should act in reality is, then they probably shouldn't be taking their kids to wrestling shows either. What a ridiculous argument. Norms change from how things are portrayed in media. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this, did the crowd cheer? did anyone including yourself get up and leave out of offence? Really people know the deal when it comes to pro wrestling and they know these people are working a performance so anyone in the ring or around it is obviously in and consenting on whatever is happening to them. If the same thing happened to a woman in line at the concessions then the same people cheering would probably react quite differently because what happens in reality is not played by the same rules as in the world of pro wrestling. Still I agree it's a spot that younger talent should probably not take up as the world is changing but an old timer now like Tatanka working with a consenting valet is not something I think is a big issue. If anyone over the age of 12 has their morals or actions swayed by doing something done in a wrestling show then they obviously have something seriously wrong with them and any parent that doesn't explain or communicate what the difference between the wrestlers performing things in a show and how they should act in reality is, then they probably shouldn't be taking their kids to wrestling shows either. What a ridiculous argument. Norms change from how things are portrayed in media. Fantasy and things like pro wrestling aren't the type of media that anyone gets their norms or ethics from watching. A spot on an indie show from 2 years ago is hardly something that's going to corrupt any rational person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this, did the crowd cheer? did anyone including yourself get up and leave out of offence? Really people know the deal when it comes to pro wrestling and they know these people are working a performance so anyone in the ring or around it is obviously in and consenting on whatever is happening to them. If the same thing happened to a woman in line at the concessions then the same people cheering would probably react quite differently because what happens in reality is not played by the same rules as in the world of pro wrestling. Still I agree it's a spot that younger talent should probably not take up as the world is changing but an old timer now like Tatanka working with a consenting valet is not something I think is a big issue. If anyone over the age of 12 has their morals or actions swayed by doing something done in a wrestling show then they obviously have something seriously wrong with them and any parent that doesn't explain or communicate what the difference between the wrestlers performing things in a show and how they should act in reality is, then they probably shouldn't be taking their kids to wrestling shows either. What a ridiculous argument. Norms change from how things are portrayed in media. Fantasy and things like pro wrestling aren't the type of media that anyone gets their norms or ethics from watching. A spot on an indie show from 2 years ago is hardly something that's going to corrupt any rational person. That's not the point. Sexual assault committed by the good guy in a fictional work bring portrayed as a laudable activity is exactly the type of thing people are referring to when they talk about rape culture in media, at least. Will seeing this angle influence someone? Not necessarily. But seeing something like this over and over has real potential issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 ^ Also it just makes wrestling look pretty bad as a whole. Imagine taking someone who wasn't into wrestling to that show and seeing that. A portion of the crowd cheered. A smattering of the crowd looked uncomfortable during the spot. I looked online after the show and a few fans voiced their displeasure. I didn't leave or anything nor am I bent out of shape over the match. It's just something that I thought would be worth mentioning as an example for rape culture in wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I went to an Indy show in Swindon a couple of years ago that had Tatanka face one of the promotion's main heels. The guy had a valet with him and after she tried to interfere, Tatanka grabbed her and forcibly laid a kiss upon her lips. This was at a family friendly wrestling show. In 2016. I get that it's a classic wrestling spot, but in today's world it was just tasteless to have it in the show, especially when the sexual assaulter was the babyface. Insane. I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over this, did the crowd cheer? did anyone including yourself get up and leave out of offence? Really people know the deal when it comes to pro wrestling and they know these people are working a performance so anyone in the ring or around it is obviously in and consenting on whatever is happening to them. If the same thing happened to a woman in line at the concessions then the same people cheering would probably react quite differently because what happens in reality is not played by the same rules as in the world of pro wrestling. Still I agree it's a spot that younger talent should probably not take up as the world is changing but an old timer now like Tatanka working with a consenting valet is not something I think is a big issue. If anyone over the age of 12 has their morals or actions swayed by doing something done in a wrestling show then they obviously have something seriously wrong with them and any parent that doesn't explain or communicate what the difference between the wrestlers performing things in a show and how they should act in reality is, then they probably shouldn't be taking their kids to wrestling shows either. What a ridiculous argument. Norms change from how things are portrayed in media. Fantasy and things like pro wrestling aren't the type of media that anyone gets their norms or ethics from watching. A spot on an indie show from 2 years ago is hardly something that's going to corrupt any rational person. That's not the point. Sexual assault committed by the good guy in a fictional work bring portrayed as a laudable activity is exactly the type of thing people are referring to when they talk about rape culture in media, at least. Will seeing this angle influence someone? Not necessarily. But seeing something like this over and over has real potential issues. I think it is the point, not only is this spot not really seen much at all anymore(the only notable one being Ric Flair and Becky Lynch and it was met with negativity and hasn't been used since to my knowledge) but also who do you think is acting this way and justifying it based on what they've seen in wrestling or any other fantasy media? Pro Wrestling has never been seen as a realistic form of media that would guide any individual on how to physically act within the norms of society. Problems in pro wrestling are literally solved by fighting and sometimes with multiple people beating down 1 individual. Does that mean due to the violence culture of the US we should be uncomfortable and not allow this to happen in the context of a pro wrestling show? Should Brandi Rhodes be criticized for kissing an non consenting Kenny Omega in that Bury The Bear ROH angle? Should it be held in the same criticism that Katy Perry got for stealing a kiss from that young man on American Idol? Do those two situations go along on the same level with this Tanaka/valet spot or the Flair/Lynch spot of being terrible portrayals in media? Also who is at fault? The promotions or companies that allowed it? The participants who agreed to perform it? or the fans who sat there and witnessed it but didn't get up and leave in protest? I agree with Bix in saying the media can have a big influence in communicating and enforcing the societal norms but within scripted fantasy I don't know anyone who would do something against someones consent and justify it because they saw a pro wrestling spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 ^ Also it just makes wrestling look pretty bad as a whole. Imagine taking someone who wasn't into wrestling to that show and seeing that. A portion of the crowd cheered. A smattering of the crowd looked uncomfortable during the spot. I looked online after the show and a few fans voiced their displeasure. I didn't leave or anything nor am I bent out of shape over the match. It's just something that I thought would be worth mentioning as an example for rape culture in wrestling. I agree with you something like that can make wrestling look bad to a non fan but lots of things done in pro wrestling would look bad to non fans. I am glad you shared it as I'm enjoying the conversation with you and Bix as I can always learn something from threads like this as anyone can but I do think context matters in situations like this as well as personal accountability. I can't believe anyone of sound mind would look to fantasy as a guide to or justification for their own actions in society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I can't believe anyone of sound mind would look to fantasy as a guide to or justification for their own actions in society. It is not the point. It's simply yet another instance of Rape Culture in pro-wrestling, which is what this thread is all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I can't believe anyone of sound mind would look to fantasy as a guide to or justification for their own actions in society. It is not the point. It's simply yet another instance of Rape Culture in pro-wrestling, which is what this thread is all about. I don't think the topic of Rape Culture is simple and so the examples to me aren't always simple and cut and dry. If everyone is just posting examples but not having any discussion about them then what benefit is it? You yourself responded to NintendoLogic's example of Muta in HUSTLE "impregnating" Yinling by blowing mist into her crotch in this thread as "That was pretty much alien comedy, with maybe a wee-bit of hentai. " So you can excuse an example with jokes but I can't offer any comments or thoughts of the cliche kiss the heel valet spot ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Because HUSTLE was a fucked up spaced-out psychedelic version of pro-wrestling. With a wee bit of hentai. Now, you can discuss whether this particular kind of hentai/comedy is part of rape culture or not, but it's not exactly the same thing as a traditional pro-wrestling context with a cut-and-dry babyface forcing himself on a heel female valet. Not quite. Nobody is preventing anyone from discussing anything. But nobody has made the point that someone could sexually assault a girl after seeing babyface-Tatanka do so. The point was : it is really offensive and ridiculous to still do that stuff in 2018 2016. If you say it's not a big deal because nobody would assault a girl because of it (and I agree with you on that last part, it's not like people need pro-wrestling to act out like assholes), my answer is : this is not the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Because HUSTLE was a fucked up spaced-out psychedelic version of pro-wrestling. With a wee bit of hentai. Now, you can discuss whether this particular kind of hentai/comedy is part of rape culture or not, but it's not exactly the same thing as a traditional pro-wrestling context with a cut-and-dry babyface forcing himself on a heel female valet. Not quite. Nobody is preventing anyone from discussing anything. But nobody has made the point that someone could sexually assault a girl after seeing babyface-Tatanka do so. The point was : it is really offensive and ridiculous to still do that stuff in 2018. But he said it was in 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Are you being serious ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I can't believe anyone of sound mind would look to fantasy as a guide to or justification for their own actions in society. It is not the point. It's simply yet another instance of Rape Culture in pro-wrestling, which is what this thread is all about. I don't think the topic of Rape Culture is simple and so the examples to me aren't always simple and cut and dry. If everyone is just posting examples but not having any discussion about them then what benefit is it? You yourself responded to NintendoLogic's example of Muta in HUSTLE "impregnating" Yinling by blowing mist into her crotch in this thread as "That was pretty much alien comedy, with maybe a wee-bit of hentai. " So you can excuse an example with jokes but I can't offer any comments or thoughts of the cliche kiss the heel valet spot ? So, you are deliberately trying to present yourself as the DEFENDER of rape culture in pro wrestling? That is a very bizarre choice to make. Do you think it is a GOOD thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Absolutely, 2016 and 2018 has seen quite a widespread growth in awareness and campaigning for things like sexual harassment and things related to Rape Culture. So I'd say the year does matter as well as the example. My thoughts are along the lines of if the kiss the heel valet spot is if it's something people would say in 2018 looking back is another prime example of Rape Culture and that it makes wrestling looks bad to fans and non-fans alike then how do you navigate promoting older footage or talents which featured or involved people doing these things? In the most recent example I gave of Brandi Rhodes and Kenny Omega in ROH, who do you fault for using a cliched spot like this 2 years after the example given? If the unwanted kiss spot is an example of Rape Culture in 2016 and is still being done in 2017 with Flair/Lynch and 2018 with Brandi/Kenny and being committed by both sexes on the opposite gender in recent times then why is this allowed to continue to take place? Are Lynch,Omega and Brandi that out of touch?(I won't include Flair since he has plenty against him). How as fans should we discourage Rape Culture aside from just pointing it out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 I can't believe anyone of sound mind would look to fantasy as a guide to or justification for their own actions in society. It is not the point. It's simply yet another instance of Rape Culture in pro-wrestling, which is what this thread is all about. I don't think the topic of Rape Culture is simple and so the examples to me aren't always simple and cut and dry. If everyone is just posting examples but not having any discussion about them then what benefit is it? You yourself responded to NintendoLogic's example of Muta in HUSTLE "impregnating" Yinling by blowing mist into her crotch in this thread as "That was pretty much alien comedy, with maybe a wee-bit of hentai. " So you can excuse an example with jokes but I can't offer any comments or thoughts of the cliche kiss the heel valet spot ? So, you are deliberately trying to present yourself as the DEFENDER of rape culture in pro wrestling? That is a very bizarre choice to make. Do you think it is a GOOD thing? Not a defender of it, just trying to define it. I think anything that promotes sexual assault or rape is something that nobody should support. I just find it being so broad and vague when a cliche spot done by both men and women is being included in with other more heinous examples I've seen mentioned regarding Rape Culture in Pro Wrestling. I also find it strange for those who include Pro Wrestling as a media that expresses or displays social norms when the environment of pro wrestling includes such a wide array of things that go against social norms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordi Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Kissing someone against their will and then claiming that they like it is Rape Culture. There is no grey area there. It is an obviously negative thing. I continue to assert that it is a very bizarre choice that you are questioning that at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Kissing someone against their will and then claiming that they like it is Rape Culture. There is no grey area there. It is an obviously negative thing. I continue to assert that it is a very bizarre choice that you are questioning that at all. I only question it because of it being such a cliched spot compared to some of the other examples I've seen posted in this thread since it started, WWE even did it last year to no giant uproar outside a few tweets I saw of people complaining about it. So with the recent example I gave of Brandi Rhodes and Kenny Omega performing this spot recently in ROH, how do we as fans who are posting stuff like this as examples of Rape Culture work to stop this stuff from happening anymore? Should there be a boycott against the ROH or NJPW cards coming up featuring those involved? Boycott the All In show since part of the story that built the feud presumed to be leading into the show is something that supports Rape Culture? What more can be done with these examples as fans saying we don't want to see talent or groups rewarded for pushing stories or talents involved in supporting Rape Culture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cactus Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 While on the subject of the Flair/Lynch kiss, I have no problem with it as long as Lynch wasn't pressured into doing it. Flair was the scumbag heel, we were not supposed to like him. Plus he was doing it to distract Lynch, not just for his own sexual satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 The problem with Flair/Lynch was that it was presented as a comedy spot rather than an unambiguously reprehensible act. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Absolutely, 2016 and 2018 has seen quite a widespread growth in awareness and campaigning for things like sexual harassment and things related to Rape Culture. So I'd say the year does matter as well as the example. For fuck's sake. This kind of spot was embarrassing and awkward to watch 25 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPS Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 Absolutely, 2016 and 2018 has seen quite a widespread growth in awareness and campaigning for things like sexual harassment and things related to Rape Culture. So I'd say the year does matter as well as the example. For fuck's sake. This kind of spot was embarrassing and awkward to watch 25 years ago. Maybe for me or you but there were arenas full of people of all types who popped for it and still do. So what can fans who like us here who are are saying 'no this is wrong and promotes rape culture' do to prevent it from being done anymore? What actions can we take to not reward those who are felt to be responsible? and how to we determine who is responsible? Would it be the be the company? the booker/agent? the talent involved? Like I mentioned a few comments ago regarding the Brandi Rhodes and Kenny Omega spot since it was the most recent use of this kind of spot on a widely seen show, should we as fans refuse to attend/watch their shows and refuse to give them money and to buy their merch because they performed an act that supports Rape Culture? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alucard Posted March 19, 2018 Report Share Posted March 19, 2018 They actually even edited the Flair/Becky kiss off on the Network, pretty quickly as soon as any negative comments starting coming up about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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