This might make a fun topic

[Loss]

So I'm starting to at least form somewhat of a list for my top 100 picks at Smarkschoice. I'd post this there, but I think this qualifies as spoilers, and they don't really care for that. Anyway, right now, I'm just trying to sort out the American and Canadian guys and where I stand on all of them before diving into the rest of the world. This will probably change a million times between now and then, but I'm pretty sure this is the group of guys I'm going to be ranking, somewhere close to this order. Notable (and intentional) misses include HHH, Kurt Angle, Hulk Hogan (who I'm still going back and forth over whether or not I want to include), Chris Jericho, and a few others I'm not thinking of that I'm sure some will mention and I'll wonder how I could have possibly forgotten them.

 

As a pre-note, my bias toward Southern tag matches has me ranking Ricky Morton a lot higher than most would. Sadly, not all of these guys will make my top 100, but most of the ones near the top will. Anyway, here's the (very rough) draft.

 

Again, THIS IS NOT MY FINAL LIST. Part of the reason I am posting this is because I'm sure someone is bound to disagree with something, and maybe there are some things I'll end up rethinking.

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Harley Race

3. Jerry Lawler

4. Eddy Guerrero

5. Chris Benoit

6. Vader

7. Jack Brisco

8. Arn Anderson

9. Terry Funk

10. The Destroyer

11. Ricky Morton

12. Stan Hansen

13. Rey Misterio Jr

14. Bobby Eaton

15. Dick Murdoch

16. Terry Gordy

17. Adrian Adonis

18. Bret Hart

19. Steve Austin

20. Eddie Gilbert

21. Bill Dundee

22. Barry Windham

23. Ted DiBiase

24. Rick Rude

25. Dennis Condrey

26. Owen Hart

27. Tully Blanchard

28. Randy Savage

29. Sgt. Slaughter

30. Ricky Steamboat

31. Dustin Rhodes

32. Shawn Michaels

33. Buddy Rose

34. Chavo Guerrero

35. Bob Backlund

36. Roddy Piper

37. Larry Zbyszko

38. Pat Patterson

39. William Regal

40. Brad Armstrong

41. Nick Bockwinkel

42. Curt Hennig

43. Jake Roberts

44. Sting

45. Don Muraco

46. Ken Patera

47. Brian Pillman

48. Steve Williams

49. The Rock

50. Ron Garvin

51. Nikita Koloff

52. Magnum TA

53. Dusty Rhodes

[sek69]

Is this supposed to be based on in ring ability or all around worker ability? Cause whenever people on the net make lists of the greatest, they tend to shape the guidelines to make it so people they might not like (HHH, Dusty, Hogan) don't place well when they're the most influential guys in US wrestling of the last 25 years and should be in the top 5 of any "greatest" list that takes into account things that matter most in wrestling: drawing money and putting asses in seats.

[Resident Evil]

So I'm starting to at least form somewhat of a list for my top 100 picks at Smarkschoice. I'd post this there, but I think this qualifies as spoilers, and they don't really care for that. Anyway, right now, I'm just trying to sort out the American and Canadian guys and where I stand on all of them before diving into the rest of the world. This will probably change a million times between now and then, but I'm pretty sure this is the group of guys I'm going to be ranking, somewhere close to this order. Notable (and intentional) misses include HHH, Kurt Angle, Hulk Hogan (who I'm still going back and forth over whether or not I want to include), Chris Jericho, and a few others I'm not thinking of that I'm sure some will mention and I'll wonder how I could have possibly forgotten them.

 

As a pre-note, my bias toward Southern tag matches has me ranking Ricky Morton a lot higher than most would. Sadly, not all of these guys will make my top 100, but most of the ones near the top will. Anyway, here's the (very rough) draft.

 

Again, THIS IS NOT MY FINAL LIST. Part of the reason I am posting this is because I'm sure someone is bound to disagree with something, and maybe there are some things I'll end up rethinking.

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Harley Race

3. Jerry Lawler

4. Eddy Guerrero

5. Chris Benoit

6. Vader

7. Jack Brisco

8. Arn Anderson

9. Terry Funk

10. The Destroyer

11. Ricky Morton

12. Stan Hansen

13. Rey Misterio Jr

14. Bobby Eaton

15. Dick Murdoch

16. Terry Gordy

17. Adrian Adonis

18. Bret Hart

19. Steve Austin

20. Eddie Gilbert

21. Bill Dundee

22. Barry Windham

23. Ted DiBiase

24. Rick Rude

25. Dennis Condrey

26. Owen Hart

27. Tully Blanchard

28. Randy Savage

29. Sgt. Slaughter

30. Ricky Steamboat

31. Dustin Rhodes

32. Shawn Michaels

33. Buddy Rose

34. Chavo Guerrero

35. Bob Backlund

36. Roddy Piper

37. Larry Zbyszko

38. Pat Patterson

39. William Regal

40. Brad Armstrong

41. Nick Bockwinkel

42. Curt Hennig

43. Jake Roberts

44. Sting

45. Don Muraco

46. Ken Patera

47. Brian Pillman

48. Steve Williams

49. The Rock

50. Ron Garvin

51. Nikita Koloff

52. Magnum TA

53. Dusty Rhodes

 

 

You're tempting me to put down my own list. I'm feeling guilty about leaving some guys off though that should be on because of limited footage. So in saying that if anyone wants to make me comps of the best of lucha libre and various US territories for free feel free to do so.

 

 

Why's Lawler currently so high? What matches am I missing?

[The Thread Killer]

Does anybody have a copy of the infamous "Gordy List" that those guys over at tOA go on about in judging if people deserve to be in the Observer Hall of Fame? I myself have recently changed my mind on who I actually think is the greatest wrestler of all time...and I'm semi-curious to see if the Gordy List criteria is close to my own personal criteria:

 

1) Can he actually wrestle?

 

2) Has he ever held a major championship?

 

3) Can he give a good interview?

 

4) Can he wrestle different styles?

 

5) Is he as good at Tag Team Wrestling as he is Singles?

 

6) Has he ever been involved in any famous feuds, angles, shows or storylines...ones which actually "drew" business?

 

7) Was he ?over??

 

8) Will people remember him as a legend?

 

As I said, with my continued exposure to more international stuff, my own criteria for what makes up a "great" wrestlers is changing...I wondered if anybody else had input.

[sek69]

You're tempting me to put down my own list. I'm feeling guilty about leaving some guys off though that should be on because of limited footage. So in saying that if anyone wants to make me comps of the best of lucha libre and various US territories for free feel free to do so.

 

 

 Why's Lawler currently so high? What matches am I missing?

Jerry Lawler is pretty much the best US Southern Style worker ever. If you've only seen him in the WWF or his stuff with AWA/World Class you're really not seeing the real Lawler.

[kjh]

Gordy List

-------------

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best draw in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best draw in his country or his promotion?

 

2. Was he an international draw, national draw and/or regional draw?

 

3. How many years did he have as a top draw?

 

4. Was he ever regarded as the best worker in the world? Was he ever regarded as the best worker in his country or in his promotion?

 

5. Was he ever the best worker in his class (sex or weight)? Was he ever one of the top workers in his class?

 

6. How many years did he have as a top worker?

 

7. Was he a good worker before his prime? Was he a good worker after his prime?

 

8. Did he have a large body of excellent matches? Did he have a excellent matches against a variety of opponents?

 

9. Did he ever anchor his promotion(s)?

 

10. Was he effective when pushed at the top of cards?

 

11. Was he valuable to his promotion before his prime? Was he still valuable to his promotion after his prime?

 

12. Did he have an impact on a number of strong promotional runs?

 

13. Was he involved in a number of memorable rivalries, feuds or storylines?

 

14. Was he effective working on the mic, working storylines or working angles?

 

15. Did he play his role(s) effectively during his career?

 

16. What titles and tournaments did he win? What was the importance of the reigns?

 

17. Did he win many honors and awards?

 

18. Did he get mainstream exposure due to his wrestling fame? Did he get a heavily featured by the wrestling media?

 

19. Was he a top tag team wrestler?

 

20. Was he innovative?

 

21. Was he influential?

 

22. Did he make the people and workers around him better?

 

23. Did he do what was best for the promotion? Did he show a commitment to wrestling?

 

24. Is there any reason to believe that he was better or worse than he appeared?

[Loss]

Well, for me, the criteria is based on the overall package of talent, but not drawing, because there's zero room for interpretation if you're making a list of draws, because it's just factual and based on numbers. I like that this is more opinion-based. I take different things into consideration. Dusty is lower than some guys on this list for example, but I'll probably end up putting Dusty above many of them if push comes to shove and there's competition for the final spots, just because as a worker, he's one of the best ever at getting away with doing almost nothing and drawing amazing heat in the process. "Ringwork" isn't really specific enough of a criteria for how I'm ranking these people; it's not just athletic ability. It's more than that. I'll explain what's important to me.

 

(1) The ability to put over a storyline in a match.

(2) The ability to sell.

(3) The ability to bring the role you're playing to the match you're in. (ex: Shelton Benjamin at WM XXII, the heel, playing to the crowd by doing the daredevil highspots would be the EXACT opposite of this.)

(4) The ability to get heat.

(5) The ability to wrestle matches that make sense.

(6) The ability to make 1-5 work without doing something so ridiculous that it's impossible to stay focused on the match.

(6) Longevity.

(7) Good-great matches with a wide variety of opponents.

[goodhelmet]

I think your ranking of Steamboat is absurd but I already know your dislike for his work so no real argument there.

 

I think Bill Dundee may be too high because no one has been able to point me to any non-Jerry Lawler matches that could be argued as classics.

 

Where's Rick Martel?

 

I don't have the Eddie Gilbert love at all. I have watched a ton of his stuff and the angles, interviews, etc. are always entertaining but I can't think of one match that stands out that would represent who Eddie is as a wrestler the same way you could do that for Regal and the Finlay Uncensored match or the Benoit Pillman match.

[Coffey]

I know he's one of your favorite wrestlers, Loss, and he can certainly sell and put over a storyline in a match. He certainly got megaton heat.

 

So, where's Michael "P.S." Hayes?

[Loss]

Martel should be on the list. I thought I included him. I guess I didn't. He's better than some people there. The Steamboat ranking is too low and the Gilbert ranking is too high. I'd have Steamboat below Bret, but above Austin. That seems like a comfortable place for him. Gilbert I'd have probably between Backlund and Piper.

 

For Gilbert, the Tupelo Concession Stand Brawl from '79, the match with Tommy Rich against the PYTs from '84 where they brawled up and down Mid South Coliseum, the series with Cactus Jack in TWA in 1990-1991, his '88 feud with Lawler, his '88-'89 stuff against Pillman, Windham and Flair and the '91 feud with Jeff Jarrett are enough to place him. Also had what I remember as a really good match against Tiger Mask at the Spectrum in '82, but I haven't seen it in years. Mid South was a great place for him to show off his personality, but not so much in the ring for the most part. Best matches were as a midcarder with various tag team partners against the Fantastics and Rock & Rolls in '85, and then later against Sam Houston.

 

As for Dundee not having classics against anyone other than Lawler, that's true, but also misleading, considering that he wrestled Memphis the majority of the time and Lawler was always in the top programs, and he definitely was not carried or the lesser guy in any of their matches. I'm now determined to find some Dundee matches against Dutch Mantel or Bobby Eaton or somebody.

[Loss]

I know he's one of your favorite wrestlers, Loss, and he can certainly sell and put over a storyline in a match. He certainly got megaton heat.

 

So, where's Michael "P.S." Hayes?

I'd say Michael Hayes, Tito Santana, Hacksaw Duggan, Buzz Sawyer, Kerry Von Erich and Butch Reed would be the next six, although probably not in that order.

[Guest Mike Campbell]

Two words, Loss: Jumbo Tsuruta

 

EDIT: Nevermind. Didn't catch that part about American and Canadian guys.

[Loss]

Two words: United States.

 

 

I haven't started ranking Japanese guys yet.

 

Nor am I fully convinced that if you take the overall career into consideration, Jumbo is better than Flair. My mind seems to change every day on that.

[Guest savagerulz]

Some thoughts:

 

Eddy at four is imo way over the top and I wonder if he'd even get all this hype and these accolades right now if he hadn't died. Yes, he was a very good wrestler, but no that doesn't suddenly make him better than , Steamboat, Dynamite (left out because he was UK rather than US? But then Regal's in?)

 

Dustin Rhodes at 31? I was a Rhodes mark in early WCW but as much promise as he showed back then he NEVER justified being the 31st best US and Canadian wrestler of all time. NEVER. And from the day he left WCW his career just slowly got worse and worse, no matter how well Goldust got over initially.

 

Sting's 44, below a whole heap of guys who had less talent, and never connected with the fans in the way he could.

 

Nikita Koloff who was over for about 1/10th the amount of time Sting was in his career is only 7 places lower, despite being little more than a guy with a great look and intense ring presence.

 

Jerry Lawler is pretty much the best US Southern Style worker ever. If you've only seen him in the WWF or his stuff with AWA/World Class you're really not seeing the real Lawler.

Well, I've seen plenty of his Memphis stuff, plenty of USWA, as well as some of his more memorable matches in terms of AWA, WWF etc as well as some rarer stuff like an NWA world title television match between him and Flair.

 

But, I'll still maintain he was a guy who was good in the ring because he knew how to work a crowd, a la Hogan, rather than because he knew lots of different moves and how to execute them perfectly.

 

Him at number 3 is a strange choice when some of the biggest and best stars that made this business are ignored completely.

 

Edit: Also, completely discounting draw seems to be cutting off one of the few tangibles that exist in the business. It doesn't have to become a list of who the biggest draws were. I'd still rank Flair ahead of Hogan, despite Hogan obviously being a way bigger draw. There's still plenty of room for opinion, but how can you rate the perennial jobber Brad Armstrong higher than Hulk Hogan?

[Loss]

Some thoughts:

 

Eddy at four is imo way over the top and I wonder if he'd even get all this hype and these accolades right now if he hadn't died. Yes, he was a very good wrestler, but no that doesn't suddenly make him better than , Steamboat, Dynamite (left out because he was UK rather than US? But then Regal's in?)

Eddy Guerrero is the only guy in wrestling history that I can think of that has had complete, stylistically different peaks in every style someone of his size could conceivably wrestle. He's had great matches as an American main eventer, an American cruiser, a Japanese junior, a Mexican main eventer and a Mexican midcarder. It's quite the amazing feat. He's also shown himself capable of wrestling mat-based scientific matches, brawls and athletic spotfests, and has done all in outstanding fashion. If you ask any five fans what Eddy Guerrero's peak was, you're going to get different answers. Some will say he peaked as a main eventer in WWE. Some will say he peaked with Art Barr as a partner in AAA. Some will say he peaked in WCW around 1997 as an amazing heel. One of the best babyfaces ever, one of the best heels ever and with more longevity, I probably would have considered making him #1.

 

Dustin Rhodes at 31? I was a Rhodes mark in early WCW but as much promise as he showed back then he NEVER justified being the 31st best US and Canadian wrestler of all time. NEVER. And from the day he left WCW his career just slowly got worse and worse, no matter how well Goldust got over initially.

Not quite true. Two separate peaks, 1991-1995, and 2002. Four years is a long time to be really good, and Dustin had terrific matches with Steve Austin (who wasn't great yet at that point), Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Cactus Jack, Bunkhouse Buck, Vader and Rick Rude. He's hurt by most of the best stuff happening on TBS instead of on pay-per-view where it's more immortalized, but in retrospect, it was a hell of a run. 2002 he and Booker were great, but the SD6 was getting all the attention. I preferred the series with Jericho and Christian to anything on Smackdown at that point.

 

Sting's 44, below a whole heap of guys who had less talent, and never connected with the fans in the way he could.

This does me no good without specifics.

 

Nikita Koloff who was over for about 1/10th the amount of time Sting was in his career is only 7 places lower, despite being little more than a guy with a great look and intense ring presence.

Nikita is there because he came to mind, but most likely will not make my final list. Ring presence counts for a lot, considering how many guys who have way more talent than Nikita don't have that in their favor, and he was also underrated in the ring -- not consistent, but when he had his working boots on, he could really go. He'll end up being cut, so don't worry too much about that.

[Loss]

But, I'll still maintain he was a guy who was good in the ring because he knew how to work a crowd, a la Hogan, rather than because he knew lots of different moves and how to execute them perfectly.

Exactly. I don't see the argument here. Isn't this what wrestling is all about? The difference between Lawler and Hogan is the more believable style without the gimmickry, the ability to have good matches as a face and a heel without being carried and better selling.

 

Him at number 3 is a strange choice when some of the biggest and best stars that made this business are ignored completely.

Like?

 

Edit: Also, completely discounting draw seems to be cutting off one of the few tangibles that exist in the business. It doesn't have to become a list of who the biggest draws were. I'd still rank Flair ahead of Hogan, despite Hogan obviously being a way bigger draw.

Drawing is a different argument. Talent encompasses plenty without bringing in something else that has a whole world of added factors.

 

There's still plenty of room for opinion, but how can you rate the perennial jobber Brad Armstrong higher than Hulk Hogan?

Because Armstrong was better. I've already explained that this isn't about impact. If it was, the list would be far too concrete with zero room for interpretation.

[Guest savagerulz]

Some thoughts:

 

Eddy at four is imo way over the top and I wonder if he'd even get all this hype and these accolades right now if he hadn't died. Yes, he was a very good wrestler, but no that doesn't suddenly make him better than , Steamboat, Dynamite (left out because he was UK rather than US? But then Regal's in?)

Eddy Guerrero is the only guy in wrestling history that I can think of that has had complete, stylistically different peaks in every style someone of his size could conceivably wrestle. He's had great matches as an American main eventer, an American cruiser, a Japanese junior, a Mexican main eventer and a Mexican midcarder. It's quite the amazing feat. He's also shown himself capable of wrestling mat-based scientific matches, brawls and athletic spotfests, and has done all in outstanding fashion. If you ask any five fans what Eddy Guerrero's peak was, you're going to get different answers. Some will say he peaked as a main eventer in WWE. Some will say he peaked with Art Barr as a partner in AAA. Some will say he peaked in WCW around 1997 as an amazing heel. One of the best babyfaces ever, one of the best heels ever and with more longevity, I probably would have considered making him #1.

 

 

Eddie's good, but WWE wise should probably never have had a title, let alone be considered an all time great. Had he not died he'd have been considered, in WWE terms, a failure as world champion and his second upcoming run had no guarantee of being any good either. I just think fourth of all time is over the top, and talk of first is going absolutely nuts. Don't get me wrong, Eddie would be in my list for all the reasons you gave, but there's a lot of guys I'd rank higher than him, some who don't even make your list.

 

Not quite true. Two separate peaks, 1991-1995, and 2002. Four years is a long time to be really good, and Dustin had terrific matches with Steve Austin (who wasn't great yet at that point), Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, Cactus Jack, Bunkhouse Buck, Vader and Rick Rude. He's hurt by most of the best stuff happening on TBS instead of on pay-per-view where it's more immortalized, but in retrospect, it was a hell of a run. 2002 he and Booker were great, but the SD6 was getting all the attention. I preferred the series with Jericho and Christian to anything on Smackdown at that point. 

Absolutely true in my book, but he got worse and worse and worse and rarely did anything once he left WCW that would justify inclusion in an all time greats list. Did anything he did in 2002 ever scream to you "greatest of all time", did it, really? His tag team stuff with Booker was ok, but that's all. His first WCW run as I said was great, but no better than the stuff a lot of the rest of that talented roster was doing at the time. There was no ten year gap in between two great runs, because there was no great second run.

 

This does me no good without specifics.

 

To be specific I'd need to go through each of the guys above him and explain why he connected with fans better than each of them. I shouldn't have to do that, in most cases it should be obvious. Maybe you just don't see Sting as half as good as I do, but he had charisma that half of those guys would have given limbs for, connected with crowds in ways that they would have died for, reinvented himself when it was neccessary, stood out and re-pushed himself when he was being pushed to the back, and had numerous great runs. Better than one decent Dustin Rhodes run that produced great matches with great workers. Not tough to wrestle great ones with Rude, Windham, AA, Zbysko, Steamboat, Austin (who was really good, better at that point than Dustin), Vader around to help you through them.

 

Nikita is there because he came to mind, but most likely will not make my final list. Ring presence counts for a lot, considering how many guys who have way more talent than Nikita don't have that in their favor, and he was also underrated in the ring -- not consistent, but when he had his working boots on, he could really go. He'll end up being cut, so don't worry too much about that.

Which brings me back to why you've not put Goldberg in there, a modern day version of Koloff who had just as good a ring presence, and who drew for just as long as Nikita did. And it brings me back to Hogan, who had ring presence. You don't need to tell me how important ring presence is, it's one of those things that I LOVE about a good worker, and is the reason I'm indifferent about guys like AJ Styles and all those ROH guys. Things like this are super important, but then why not chuck the Warrior in? On the basis that you chucked Koloff in, Warrior matches up to all of those things. Ring presence was awesome. He was under rated in the ring, because he could have VERY good matches with the right opponents, just like Nikita, not consistent, just like Nikita, but when it was all set up right and he wanted to, he could go.

 

I just think it's hard to chuck Nikita in there on ring presence, when Hogan doesn't make the list.

 

I'm probably going to stop commenting now, largely because it's your list and your opinion, so it can't actually be "wrong" as such. We see things from very different perspectives and any top 100 of all time of mine wouldn't have half of those guys in, and the guys it did have would often not be anywhere near as high. Draw would be a factor, guys don't get over and draw on luck. They get over and draw on ability. All those stories about wrestlers whining, they got buried, they got held down, they should have been pushed harder, they got saddled with this gimmick. All bollocks. If you're good enough you get yourself over, you take bad gimmicks and make them work, you get past being buried and make people forget. The best in the business get to the top and the worst don't. If you never got the recognition at the top of the sport then chances are you weren't held down, you simply weren't good enough and didn't have the complete all round package to get there.

[goodhelmet]

Why's Lawler currently so high? What matches am I missing?

WP, I'll be releasing a 4-5 disc Lawler best of set at the end of the month. I am only waiting for his AWA matches and it will be ready. If you look at Lawler's run from late 70s to early 90s, the man was phenomenal.

 

Lawler had great runs/matches with...

Bill Dundee

Dutch Mantell

Austin Idol

Harley Race

Ric Flair (best ten minute time limit draw I have seen w/ a great angle)

Kimala (Yeah, friggin Kimala!)

Randy Savage

Kerry Von Erich

Koko Ware (which I am having a hard time finding a good copy of)

Bob Sweetan

Nick Bockwinkle

Curt Hennig

 

That doesn't even include the feuds that he got over. That is strictly on in-ring work.

[goodhelmet]

1. Ric Flair

Flair as #1 is a perfectly obvious and acceptable choice but I don't know if he would be my personal #1. Still, whenever I seek out material from other wrestlers, a Flair match always pops up and 8/10 times, the match rocks. Easy Top 10 choice for me now. Depending on the placement of some luchadores and Japan guys, may break in at #5.

 

 

2. Harley Race

I would be tempted to put Race above Flair in my list because of his work in Japan as well as what I have seen from him stateside. However, the limited amount of footage available may prevent that from happening.

 

 

3. Jerry Lawler

Lawler rules. Look for the comp.

 

4. Eddy Guerrero

Loss already explained why this guy rules. I have him far above Benoit on my list and it isn't becuase he is dead. It is because the guy was phenomenal at everything he did.

 

5. Chris Benoit

I love his work and I think he is a great wrestler. Still, I love so many other wrestlers more.

 

13. Rey Misterio Jr

I want to watch more of his stuff from Mexico before making a final decision on Rey.

 

10. The Destroyer

Never seen any stateside Destroyer matches. All of his AJ Classic stuff has been great.

 

 

9. Terry Funk

I love Terry but I don't know if I will have him as highly as I initially thought I would. It seems everytime I come across a great Funk match, I also find a bad one.

 

12. Stan Hansen

48. Steve Williams

6. Vader

When you include both their Japan and U.S. work, easy picks. Without Japan, it would be hard for me to vote for any of them.

 

16. Terry Gordy

then you have Terry Gordy who I think had an underwhelming run in Japan compared to his peers but his U.S. stuff blows away most of the work from the above guys. I think I would include him Top Ten American.

 

 

7. Jack Brisco

41. Nick Bockwinkel

38. Pat Patterson

I simply have not seen enouugh although I have a bunch of Bockwinkle to go through.

 

8. Arn Anderson

27. Tully Blanchard

40. Brad Armstrong

Making comps for these guys raised the stock of all 3 in my book.

 

 

52. Magnum TA

Magnum won't make my list because of a lack of longevity but he had a helluva run from 84-86. Just some phenomonal work.

 

23. Ted DiBiase

30. Ricky Steamboat

35. Bob Backlund

I have all of these guys ranked much higher than Loss does. Ricky is Top 20 overall for me. Dibiase and Backlund are Top 10 American.

 

11. Ricky Morton

14. Bobby Eaton

I love both these guys but I actually like Bobby Eaton better than Morton. I would also lump Tommy Rogers in this list.

 

34. Chavo Guerrero

Man, I have to make that Guerreros comp for Jose because I am not seeing it. Maybe I am just missing a big chunk of his career.

 

15. Dick Murdoch

17. Adrian Adonis

18. Bret Hart

19. Steve Austin

22. Barry Windham

28. Randy Savage

I think this is about right although you could lower or raise all of them 5 spots and get no arguments from me.

 

 

24. Rick Rude

26. Owen Hart

The jury is still out on these guys. Comps are in the works for both so I may change my mind on both ten times before it is finished.

 

 

39. William Regal

42. Curt Hennig

47. Brian Pillman

49. The Rock

Bubble guys for me. All would land in the lower half of my final list if they made it.

 

 

20. Eddie Gilbert

21. Bill Dundee

25. Dennis Condrey

29. Sgt. Slaughter

31. Dustin Rhodes

32. Shawn Michaels

36. Roddy Piper

37. Larry Zbyszko

33. Buddy Rose

43. Jake Roberts

44. Sting

45. Don Muraco

46. Ken Patera

50. Ron Garvin

51. Nikita Koloff

53. Dusty Rhodes

These guys will not make my list.

 

 

Michael Hayes, Tito Santana, Hacksaw Duggan, Buzz Sawyer, Kerry Von Erich and Butch Reed

Reed and Kerry will make my list. Too many good-great matches to ignore thier gifts. The others won't.

[Resident Evil]

Why's Lawler currently so high? What matches am I missing?

WP, I'll be releasing a 4-5 disc Lawler best of set at the end of the month. I am only waiting for his AWA matches and it will be ready. If you look at Lawler's run from late 70s to early 90s, the man was phenomenal.

 

Lawler had great runs/matches with...

Bill Dundee

Dutch Mantell

Austin Idol

Harley Race

Ric Flair (best ten minute time limit draw I have seen w/ a great angle)

Kimala (Yeah, friggin Kimala!)

Randy Savage

Kerry Von Erich

Koko Ware (which I am having a hard time finding a good copy of)

Bob Sweetan

Nick Bockwinkle

Curt Hennig

 

That doesn't even include the feuds that he got over. That is strictly on in-ring work.

Interesting, I think I might have seen the Flair match but I remember just thinking it was okay. Where did it take place at?

I manage to see a Lawler match here and there yet they never appeal to me but of course my mind is open. There've been a couple of wrestlers from the past that I unfortunately somehow managed to see all their worse stuff first only to see their better stuff afterwards. It could be the same with Lawler.

 

Goodhelmet, I might just have to get a bunch of stuff off you some day because you

have some nice comps made up.

 

 

Here's my extreamly temporary list which is actually over 100. I've gotten lazy on doing my research however. I should be rewatching a lot of matches

 

 

 

 

Dynamite Kid

 

 

 

Chris Benoit

 

 

 

 

Kenta Kobashi

 

Bret Hart

 

Mayumi Ozaki

 

Jumbo Tsuruta

 

Manami Toyota

 

Jushin Lyger

 

Akira Hokuto

 

Ricky Steamboat

 

Aja Kong

 

Jaguar Yokota

 

Nakio Sano

 

Johnny Smith

 

Stan Hanson

 

Dynamite Kansai

 

Takada

 

Kawada

 

Toshiyo Yamada

 

The Destroyer

 

Misawa

 

Hiroshi Hase

 

Chigusa Nagayo

 

Koboyashi

 

Eddie Guerrero

 

Ric Flair

 

Tatsumi Fujinami

 

Masami

 

Kyoko Inoue

 

Shinya Hashimoto

 

Steve Williams

 

Owen Hart

 

Vader

 

Shinjori Ohtani

 

Mima Shimoda

 

Etsuko Mita

 

Dan Kroffat (2nd)

 

Rey Mysterio Jr.

 

Mariko Yoshida

 

Terry Gordy

 

The Cobra

 

Bull Nakano

 

Sakie Hasegawa

 

Brian Pillman

 

Steven Regal

 

Steve Austin

 

Shawn Michaels

 

Mr. Perfect Curt Henning

 

Ben Basserb

 

Barry Whindam

 

Macho Man Randy Savage

 

Momoe Nakanishi

 

 

Tiger Mask

 

Marc Rocco

 

Mimi Hagiwara

 

El Samurai

 

Ultimo Dragon

 

Chris Jericho

 

Gran Hamada

 

Sgt. Slaughter

 

Dean Malenko

 

Jun Akiyima

 

Scott Norton

 

The British Bulldog Davey Boy Smith

 

Villano III

 

Terry Funk

 

Megumi Kudo

 

Meiko Satomura

 

Akira Taue

 

KENTA

 

Sting

 

Kurt Angle

 

Adrion Adonis

 

Lioness Asuka

 

The Great Sasuke

 

Brock Lesnar

 

Andre the Giant

 

Booker T

 

Debbie Malenko

 

Hulk Hogan

 

Hikari Fukuoka

 

Lightning Kid

 

2 Cold Scorpio

 

Biff Wellington

 

Kikuchi

 

Pat Tanaka

 

Masa Chono

 

Bob Backland

 

Rip Rogers

 

Dump Matsumoto

 

Nikita Koloff

 

Raven

 

Mikey Whipwreck

 

Masato Tanaka

 

Rick Martel

 

Dustin Rhodes

 

Scott Steiner

 

The Rock

 

Keiji Mutoh

 

Ron Simmons

 

Bad News Allen

 

Fit Finlay

 

Harley Race

 

Brad Armstrong

 

Ricky Morton

 

American Dragon

 

Bigelow

 

Arn Anderson

 

Gary Albright

 

Yumiko Hotta

 

Ted Dibiase

 

Gama Singh

 

Sabu

 

Taka Michinoku

 

Rhonda Singh

 

Lo Ki

 

Reggie Bennett

 

Cactus Jack

 

People I'm not sure where to rank at right now

 

*El Hijo Del Santo

Jumping Bomb Angels

 

Koboyashi

Atlantis

Yuki Ishikawa Battlearts

Kazou Yamazaki

Koshinaka

Fuerza Guerrera

JIm Breaks

Blue Panther

Volk Han

Fantastics

Midnight Express

[Loss]

1. Ric Flair

Flair as #1 is a perfectly obvious and acceptable choice but I don't know if he would be my personal #1. Still, whenever I seek out material from other wrestlers, a Flair match always pops up and 8/10 times, the match rocks. Easy Top 10 choice for me now. Depending on the placement of some luchadores and Japan guys, may break in at #5.

Agreed. Flair is still in the running to be #1 overall with me. Still watching boatloads of lucha. The only person not in lucha I see giving him a run for his money is Jumbo Tsuruta, and I'm not sure how I'm finally going to make up my mind for good there.

 

2. Harley Race

I would be tempted to put Race above Flair in my list because of his work in Japan as well as what I have seen from him stateside. However, the limited amount of footage available may prevent that from happening.

Yeah, Race goes in based mostly on his Japanese work, since that's what I've seen. I included him here since he's American born, and the footage that is available suggests that he was consistently amazing.

 

3. Jerry Lawler

Lawler rules. Look for the comp.

You know I will.

 

 

4. Eddy Guerrero

Loss already explained why this guy rules. I have him far above Benoit on my list and it isn't becuase he is dead. It is because the guy was phenomenal at everything he did.

Agreed. You can find tons of Eddy love in these parts long before he died.

 

5. Chris Benoit

I love his work and I think he is a great wrestler. Still, I love so many other wrestlers more.

Benoit/Guerrero is an interesting comparison, because as we've said before, Benoit has had more good matches and Eddy has had more great ones. There's not really one match you can point to with Benoit as his defining moment, which is both to his advantage and his detriment. Has he been consistently good or has he been consistently great? It's a debate worth having, I think.

 

13. Rey Misterio Jr

I want to watch more of his stuff from Mexico before making a final decision on Rey.

I feel pretty comfortable with his placing. I'll probably put him ahead of Destroyer the more I think about it, though.

 

10. The Destroyer

Never seen any stateside Destroyer matches. All of his AJ Classic stuff has been great.

Agreed. Maybe some will become available some day.

 

9. Terry Funk

I love Terry but I don't know if I will have him as highly as I initially thought I would. It seems everytime I come across a great Funk match, I also find a bad one.

Terry Funk may the best ever at switching back and forth between world class wrestler and lunatic madman. My only issue with Funk, and this may end up bringing him down some (just as it might Flair in the end) is how he's cheapened his memory by going LONG past the point he should have retired.

 

 

12. Stan Hansen

48. Steve Williams

6. Vader

When you include both their Japan and U.S. work, easy picks. Without Japan, it would be hard for me to vote for any of them.

Yeah, agreed on Hansen and Doc, but I think Vader has had better stuff in the US than in Japan.

 

16. Terry Gordy

then you have Terry Gordy who I think had an underwhelming run in Japan compared to his peers but his U.S. stuff blows away most of the work from the above guys. I think I would include him Top Ten American.

I couldn't really argue that.

 

7. Jack Brisco

41. Nick Bockwinkel

38. Pat Patterson

I simply have not seen enouugh although I have a bunch of Bockwinkle to go through.

Pat Patterson is the one guy I'm grading on a curve, because of his contribution in laying out great matches for other wrestlers in the WWF for over 25 years. He's the only one I'm doing that with, but I think the good footage that does exist, combined with the reputation and the importance he's had, make him kind of a token pick. Brisco is high primarily for his Japanese work, Bockwinkel for consistent excellence everywhere I've seen him.

 

8. Arn Anderson

27. Tully Blanchard

40. Brad Armstrong

Making comps for these guys raised the stock of all 3 in my book.

Arn Anderson in particular is a great, great wrestler. I've always thought highly of him, but man, he's gone through the roof in my book the past few months.

 

52. Magnum TA

Magnum won't make my list because of a lack of longevity but he had a helluva run from 84-86. Just some phenomonal work.

He'll end up off of mine too, but if I was doing top 200, he'd be there for sure.

 

23. Ted DiBiase

30. Ricky Steamboat

35. Bob Backlund

I have all of these guys ranked much higher than Loss does. Ricky is Top 20 overall for me. Dibiase and Backlund are Top 10 American.

Backlund may end up higher. Steamboat obviously will. I'm comfortable with DiBiase's placing.

 

11. Ricky Morton

14. Bobby Eaton

I love both these guys but I actually like Bobby Eaton better than Morton. I would also lump Tommy Rogers in this list.

The more I think about it, Eaton probably belongs slightly ahead of Morton. I think Morton was better in singles matches, which is why he placed higher, but Eaton worked with more partners in more settings and had more great matches. Rogers is someone I need to add.

 

34. Chavo Guerrero

Man, I have to make that Guerreros comp for Jose because I am not seeing it. Maybe I am just missing a big chunk of his career.

Love the tag team with Hector in Mid South, and the recent lucha I've watched helped his case quite a bit.

 

15. Dick Murdoch

17. Adrian Adonis

18. Bret Hart

19. Steve Austin

22. Barry Windham

28. Randy Savage

I think this is about right although you could lower or raise all of them 5 spots and get no arguments from me.

Adonis over Bret was the main thing I struggled with there, but I really think Adonis was the more talented of the two and the far superior bumper, with the main difference being the embarrassing fall-off toward the end. Bret suffered toward the end as well, but not nearly as much.

 

24. Rick Rude

26. Owen Hart

The jury is still out on these guys. Comps are in the works for both so I may change my mind on both ten times before it is finished.

I'm honestly not totally committed to Owen at this point, but Rude is a lock.

 

39. William Regal

42. Curt Hennig

47. Brian Pillman

49. The Rock

Bubble guys for me. All would land in the lower half of my final list if they made it.

I'll probably find a way to get most of them on the list, but may have to make some tough decisions.

 

20. Eddie Gilbert

21. Bill Dundee

25. Dennis Condrey

29. Sgt. Slaughter

31. Dustin Rhodes

32. Shawn Michaels

36. Roddy Piper

37. Larry Zbyszko

33. Buddy Rose

43. Jake Roberts

44. Sting

45. Don Muraco

46. Ken Patera

50. Ron Garvin

51. Nikita Koloff

53. Dusty Rhodes

These guys will not make my list.

Why not Slaughter, Buddy Rose or Jake specifically? And for kicks, why not Michaels?

 

Michael Hayes, Tito Santana, Hacksaw Duggan, Buzz Sawyer, Kerry Von Erich and Butch Reed

Reed and Kerry will make my list. Too many good-great matches to ignore thier gifts. The others won't.

What's your take on the argument that all of Kerry's great matches have him doing nothing? I don't agree with it, but some people seem to think he was Ultimate Warrior-level bad.

[Guest DylanWaco]

I won't post my list, because I'm in the midst of some major changes and because I just want to wait until the process is over, but I'll chime in with a few thoughts.

 

First of all I think Funk is way too low. I don't know where all of these bad Funk matches GH has found are, but I haven't seen them. Funk way past his prime isn't good, but he's entertaining in a way that Flair really wasn't for several years. Flair has come back around the last year and a half and been pretty good, but Funk has been consistently entertaining and didn't have a stretch of just being embarrasingly awful like Flair did for a couple of years where he was visibly calling spots in every match and failing to hit his signature spots nearly every night out. I wouldn't hang my hat on Funk's post 89 work, but there is a shitload of good post 89 Funk. He was good right through his brief WCW return in the mid 90's. He was good in SMW and good in ECW. He was good in the WWE with Cactus both as his opponent and tag partner. He was good in his last WCW run even with bizaarely good comedy garbage matches. Pre-89 I can't think of any period where I think Funk was anything less than great. He was one of the best in the world in the 70's if not the best. He redefined himself and was just very good to great at pretty much everything he did during his career. The big knocks against Funk are that he took off for big periods of time and he never had a defining great series or set of classics. Still Funk is one of five people I am seriously considering for number one overall.

 

Secondly Rude is fucking awesome. I have caught alot of his work recently. With Manny v. The Roadies. v. Sting. v. Jake Roberts. v. Warrior. That guy was fucking great. He could switch on and off between being a stooging, bumping nut and being a legit asskicker with one sweet transition. His stock has gone up alot in my eyes.

 

Finally, and this will probably be controversial, but I think I may take Rey over Vader overall. Right now Rey is four spots ahead of Vader and while it looks wierd on paper to me, I really can't think of a reason to flip things around. Vader probably had more classics and his better matches are better than Vader's, but Rey has more good matches, totally changed his way of working, has had two peaks in two totally different enviornments and never really had a decline like Vader did. It's close, but I'm leaning toward Rey.

[Guest DylanWaco]

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Harley Race

3. Jerry Lawler

4. Eddy Guerrero

5. Chris Benoit

6. Vader

7. Jack Brisco

8. Arn Anderson

9. Terry Funk

10. The Destroyer

11. Ricky Morton

12. Stan Hansen

13. Rey Misterio Jr

14. Bobby Eaton

15. Dick Murdoch

16. Terry Gordy

17. Adrian Adonis

18. Bret Hart

19. Steve Austin

20. Eddie Gilbert

21. Bill Dundee

22. Barry Windham

23. Ted DiBiase

24. Rick Rude

25. Dennis Condrey

26. Owen Hart

27. Tully Blanchard

28. Randy Savage

29. Sgt. Slaughter

30. Ricky Steamboat

31. Dustin Rhodes

32. Shawn Michaels

33. Buddy Rose

34. Chavo Guerrero

35. Bob Backlund

36. Roddy Piper

37. Larry Zbyszko

38. Pat Patterson

39. William Regal

40. Brad Armstrong

41. Nick Bockwinkel

42. Curt Hennig

43. Jake Roberts

44. Sting

45. Don Muraco

46. Ken Patera

47. Brian Pillman

48. Steve Williams

49. The Rock

50. Ron Garvin

51. Nikita Koloff

52. Magnum TA

53. Dusty Rhodes

 

No Dutch Mantel? No Tommy Rogers? No Butch Reed? No Mick Foley? No Buddy Landel?

 

I can see a case for leaving every one of those guys off the overall list, but I would think they would merit more consideration than Patera or Nikita for example. Seems like Budro and Dutch probably won't get much love in the end and neither will Butch, but really I can't think of any argument for Jericho over Foley and Jericho is someone you are still considering. I'm sure Rogers is an oversight like Martel.

 

Really I think there are many more Canadian/US workers to consider. Bill Eadie pops to mind. Paul Orndorff is another. I'm not saying either guy is someone I would vote for, but I think both guys compare pretty favorably to someone like Ron Garvin or Jake Roberts for example. Marty Jannetty is even someone I would hope people would consider, as is Bigelow, Scorpio and a host of others.

 

Also, Bockwinkle is WAY low on this. I knew going in that he was the most likely person to be underrated on this set, but man he looks like he is in danger of even making your list and you are one of the few guys I thought might rate him in their upper half other than me. He'll likey be in my top fifteen overall.

[goodhelmet]

On Terry Funk...

 

I wouldn't hang my hat on Funk's post 89 work, but there is a shitload of good post 89 Funk. He was good right through his brief WCW return in the mid 90's. He was good in SMW and good in ECW. He was good in the WWE with Cactus both as his opponent and tag partner. He was good in his last WCW run even with bizaarely good comedy garbage matches.

We differ on nearly every sentence here save for the mid 90s WCW which I am drawing a blank on. When was this and who was he fighting? I didn't care for his SMW or ECW work at all. Rollling around in barbed wire with Sabu is not good to me. Having 45 minute 3-ways with Shane Douglas does not entertain me in the least. Him and Cactus throwing each other into bombs may be entertaining but it isn't good wrestling in my eyes. I watched the Bob Armstrong match and I really don't care to see two senior citizens limp around the ring pretending they are still serious conteders. I thought the last WWF run was abysmal because you had a 55 year old man running around with pantyhose on his head jumping into dumpsters. The last WCW run was not good anyway you slice it. Compared to the horrible shit that surrounding him? Maybe. But it is still a lowlight on what was a great career.

 

This is a man who had great matches with JumboSteamboat, Lawler, the Sheik, and Flair. He knows how to work. No one is disputing that. He could brawl and bleed with the best of them. And then instead of maintaining that, he resorts to garbage even though he should know better. I don't care for that. Still, you are right... his pre-89 work is awesome (at least what is available on tape). don't get me wrong, Funk will still be high on my list but not as high as Flair (who has raised his stock in just the last 3 weeks of my viewing) and Race and Steamboat. At one point, I would have had him over all three. Now, I don't.

 

My only issue with Funk, and this may end up bringing him down some (just as it might Flair in the end) is how he's cheapened his memory by going LONG past the point he should have retired.

Pretty much the main reason his stock has fallen over the last couple of months in my eyes. I have seen matches from pre and post 89. However, it is getting harder and harder for me to find more great Funk matches while I keep discovering gems from Flair that I never knew existed.

 

 

On Rude...

 

Secondly Rude is fucking awesome.

The only matches I have watched closely in recent months are the RNR vs. RNR tags from 86-87. However, I am a couple of Japanese matches away from assembling the Rick Rude comp. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go up the same way BA, AA and Blanchard did. Then again, he may drop a few notches like Magnum did. I'll have to wait and see.

 

With Manny v. The Roadies

When was this? GAB 87?

 

 

Rey vs. Vader vs. Destroyer

 

Finally, and this will probably be controversial, but I think I may take Rey over Vader overall.

I don't think it is wierd at all to have Rey over Vader esp. when you take into account their entire careers.

 

I will probably have Rey above both Destroyer and Vader and not lose any sleep over it. With Destoryer, I will include him because I have seen enough great matches to justify his inclusion but I haven't seen any low points to see how he has changed or evolved.

 

Pat Patterson is the one guy I'm grading on a curve, because of his contribution in laying out great matches for other wrestlers in the WWF for over 25 years. He's the only one I'm doing that with, but I think the good footage that does exist, combined with the reputation and the importance he's had, make him kind of a token pick. Brisco is high primarily for his Japanese work, Bockwinkel for consistent excellence everywhere I've seen him.

On Patterson...

 

I refuse to do that. Same reason I won't put a Lou Thesz or other old-timer in there. I can't go on reputation... only on what I have seen with my own eyes.

 

Speaking of old timers, where is Dory Funk on your list?

 

As for planning great matches, having a great mind for wrestling does not mean that you always delivered the goods in the ring. Listen to Raven talk in his Secrets of the Ring series and you would have thought he was a Top Ten wrestler of all-time. He's not and doesn't have the Body of Work to back up his talk either. However, he does have a great mind for what works and what doesn't but it doesn't mean it always translated properly in his own work.

 

On Brisco...

 

I may have to bug Dan for all the available Jack Brisco footage he has because I really want to see more of this guy. Jeff Lynch is sending me a list of American comps he put together so I may see if there are any possibilities there as well. One of the guys who I want to see more of before I finalize any list.

 

 

On Bockwinkle...

 

I have enough footage I think to probably even make a nice NB comp but may wait until I grab even more footage from KHawk and Dan.

 

 

On Chavo Guerrero...

 

Love the tag team with Hector in Mid South, and the recent lucha I've watched helped his case quite a bit.

What recent lucha have you seen with Chavo?

 

I like the Hector Mid South team as well but I don't know if I like them enough to put either on a Top 100 list. when other teams around the time (RNR, MX, Fans) are head and shoulders above them.

 

Maybe once the Guerrero Bros. comp is complete, I can get a better picture of who Chavo is.

 

 

Adonis over Bret was the main thing I struggled with there, but I really think Adonis was the more talented of the two and the far superior bumper, with the main difference being the embarrassing fall-off toward the end. Bret suffered toward the end as well, but not nearly as much.

On Adrian Adonis...

 

I have an East-West comp coming from KHawk that will give me more Adonis exposure. I also need to watch the AWA Adonis comp I just picked up. Still, it's one thing to be paired up with Ventura and carry the team to good matches and another to be teamed with Dick Friggin' Murdoch. Also, his best matches in my eyes have been with Bob Backlund who I rate pretty highly (I rated thier 1/82 match #1 in my personal WWF 80s poll) and Fujinami who I also really like.

 

As for bumping, I do not think that is really mandatory in order to be a great wrestler. Def. not as important as logical match progression or selling or even character expressions. I think Adonis does these things pretty well but I would take Bret over Adonis at this point. I think I would also have Barry over Adonis because he had a longer period of time where I enjoyed his work and had the super high end matches.

 

When I get the Dick Murdoch Japanese work and compile his comp, I have a feeling Dick may be in the Top 5 American workers on my list (excluding Canadians and Eddie )

 

Why not Slaughter, Buddy Rose or Jake specifically? And for kicks, why not Michaels?

On Slaughter...

 

This is just one of those wrestlers that we disagree on. The boot camp match has been a victim of the law of diminishing returns for me since I like it a little less each time I view it (as we had discussed before). I love the Greensboro tag but I think that was all 4 guys going over the top... not just Slaughter "carrying" the other guys. I have still not seen any other great Slaughter performances including the other WF DVDVR matche, the little AWA I have seen, or the Portland matches. To be fair, his Portland work is with the Road Warriors and Kendo Nagasaki so I don't hold that against him.

 

On Buddy Rose...

 

Last week and the week before I watched a ton of Buddy Rose from Portland. Oddly, the one match I did not watch closely was the Adonis match. He was a great heel and annoying as fuck but being the king of Portland is like being the top dog in CZW today. It doesn't mean much in my eyes. Plus, my favorite Rose match so far is the Backlund lumberjack match but I love Backlund and his "formula". I haven't marked out for any other Buddy Rose matches including the Rockers tags.

 

On Jake the Snake...

 

I like some of his Mid South work but not all. I like his Steamboat feud which I think you despise. I may be wrong on that. I don't really like anything else he has done including the Rude feud. I may have to do a Jake the Snake comp to revisit his work but I don't know how big of a priority that will be.

 

 

On HBK...

 

I think his return has really hurt him. I know you complain about indy guys simulating wrestling matches. That is EXACTLY how I feel about Michaels. Look at the Hogan match. You knew he was bumping his ass off for Hogan but you knew it was him simulating the motions of being in a fight with him. When he gave his bitter promo the next night, it only reconfirmed what I watched. The same could be said for the Angle matches that made absolutely no sense to me. I think you were the one who mentioned how those matches ahd ultiple peronalities and I would agree. YOu love/hate/love/hate parts of the matches becuase they were so disjointed.

 

The Bret feud was great and I love the early DX heel shtick but only a small handful of matches stand out for me from that time. I never really cared for the Rockers (per earlier discussion) or the Boy Toy. I may make a comp of his to re-evaluate this as well. Once yo uadd luchadores and Japanese workers to this list, HBK will not be in the Top 100.

 

 

What's your take on the argument that all of Kerry's great matches have him doing nothing? I don't agree with it, but some people seem to think he was Ultimate Warrior-level bad.

On Kerry Von Erich...

 

I think one of two things...

 

1. They haven't really seen alot of Kerry Von Erich and only remember him stumbling around a WWF ring looking lost (a valid complaint) but something that does not show the entire career. To be honest, most guys who are on the message boards were probably still in diapers when Kerry was at his peak (anywhere from 83-85). Hell, it was hard as hell for me to find Kerry's best work (Mid South and Ft. Worth matches) and only did through the goodness that is Dan Ginnetty and our Mid South bulks.

 

 

2. They have some strange bias against him where they already formed an opinion regardless of what the matches actually show.

How many wrestlers have we heard criticized over the years only to change our minds on when we actually see the footage? Slaughter, Duggan, Rick Rude, Magnum TA are just a few. I can count on one hand the number of guys who had good matches with Michael Hayes (singles), Kimala, and One Man Gang. Kerry is on all of those lists. Flair is known for carrying Von Erich but each Flair-Kerry match is an entirely new match and has elevated BOTH guys in my eyes. Seriously, when I make the Kerry-Flair comp, look at how each match froms its own personality and how Kerry is right there wih Flair step-for-step most of the time. I don't have any deep-rooted love for Kerry. I grew up with World Class but I don't mark for him the way I do a Ricky Steamboat or Ted Dibiase. I just watch the matches and the matches have shown me he could work his ass off.

[Guest DylanWaco]

On Terry Funk...

 

I wouldn't hang my hat on Funk's post 89 work, but there is a shitload of good post 89 Funk. He was good right through his brief WCW return in the mid 90's. He was good in SMW and good in ECW. He was good in the WWE with Cactus both as his opponent and tag partner. He was good in his last WCW run even with bizaarely good comedy garbage matches.

We differ on nearly every sentence here save for the mid 90s WCW which I am drawing a blank on. When was this and who was he fighting? I didn't care for his SMW or ECW work at all. Rollling around in barbed wire with Sabu is not good to me. Having 45 minute 3-ways with Shane Douglas does not entertain me in the least. Him and Cactus throwing each other into bombs may be entertaining but it isn't good wrestling in my eyes. I watched the Bob Armstrong match and I really don't care to see two senior citizens limp around the ring pretending they are still serious conteders. I thought the last WWF run was abysmal because you had a 55 year old man running around with pantyhose on his head jumping into dumpsters. The last WCW run was not good anyway you slice it. Compared to the horrible shit that surrounding him? Maybe. But it is still a lowlight on what was a great career.

 

This is a man who had great matches with JumboSteamboat, Lawler, the Sheik, and Flair. He knows how to work. No one is disputing that. He could brawl and bleed with the best of them. And then instead of maintaining that, he resorts to garbage even though he should know better. I don't care for that. Still, you are right... his pre-89 work is awesome (at least what is available on tape). don't get me wrong, Funk will still be high on my list but not as high as Flair (who has raised his stock in just the last 3 weeks of my viewing) and Race and Steamboat. At one point, I would have had him over all three. Now, I don't.

 

My only issue with Funk, and this may end up bringing him down some (just as it might Flair in the end) is how he's cheapened his memory by going LONG past the point he should have retired.

Pretty much the main reason his stock has fallen over the last couple of months in my eyes. I have seen matches from pre and post 89. However, it is getting harder and harder for me to find more great Funk matches while I keep discovering gems from Flair that I never knew existed.

 

 

On Rude...

 

Secondly Rude is fucking awesome.

The only matches I have watched closely in recent months are the RNR vs. RNR tags from 86-87. However, I am a couple of Japanese matches away from assembling the Rick Rude comp. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go up the same way BA, AA and Blanchard did. Then again, he may drop a few notches like Magnum did. I'll have to wait and see.

 

With Manny v. The Roadies

When was this? GAB 87?

 

 

Rey vs. Vader vs. Destroyer

 

Finally, and this will probably be controversial, but I think I may take Rey over Vader overall.

I don't think it is wierd at all to have Rey over Vader esp. when you take into account their entire careers.

 

I will probably have Rey above both Destroyer and Vader and not lose any sleep over it. With Destoryer, I will include him because I have seen enough great matches to justify his inclusion but I haven't seen any low points to see how he has changed or evolved.

 

Pat Patterson is the one guy I'm grading on a curve, because of his contribution in laying out great matches for other wrestlers in the WWF for over 25 years. He's the only one I'm doing that with, but I think the good footage that does exist, combined with the reputation and the importance he's had, make him kind of a token pick. Brisco is high primarily for his Japanese work, Bockwinkel for consistent excellence everywhere I've seen him.

On Patterson...

 

I refuse to do that. Same reason I won't put a Lou Thesz or other old-timer in there. I can't go on reputation... only on what I have seen with my own eyes.

 

Speaking of old timers, where is Dory Funk on your list?

 

As for planning great matches, having a great mind for wrestling does not mean that you always delivered the goods in the ring. Listen to Raven talk in his Secrets of the Ring series and you would have thought he was a Top Ten wrestler of all-time. He's not and doesn't have the Body of Work to back up his talk either. However, he does have a great mind for what works and what doesn't but it doesn't mean it always translated properly in his own work.

 

On Brisco...

 

I may have to bug Dan for all the available Jack Brisco footage he has because I really want to see more of this guy. Jeff Lynch is sending me a list of American comps he put together so I may see if there are any possibilities there as well. One of the guys who I want to see more of before I finalize any list.

 

 

On Bockwinkle...

 

I have enough footage I think to probably even make a nice NB comp but may wait until I grab even more footage from KHawk and Dan.

 

 

On Chavo Guerrero...

 

Love the tag team with Hector in Mid South, and the recent lucha I've watched helped his case quite a bit.

What recent lucha have you seen with Chavo?

 

I like the Hector Mid South team as well but I don't know if I like them enough to put either on a Top 100 list. when other teams around the time (RNR, MX, Fans) are head and shoulders above them.

 

Maybe once the Guerrero Bros. comp is complete, I can get a better picture of who Chavo is.

 

 

Adonis over Bret was the main thing I struggled with there, but I really think Adonis was the more talented of the two and the far superior bumper, with the main difference being the embarrassing fall-off toward the end. Bret suffered toward the end as well, but not nearly as much.

On Adrian Adonis...

 

I have an East-West comp coming from KHawk that will give me more Adonis exposure. I also need to watch the AWA Adonis comp I just picked up. Still, it's one thing to be paired up with Ventura and carry the team to good matches and another to be teamed with Dick Friggin' Murdoch. Also, his best matches in my eyes have been with Bob Backlund who I rate pretty highly (I rated thier 1/82 match #1 in my personal WWF 80s poll) and Fujinami who I also really like.

 

As for bumping, I do not think that is really mandatory in order to be a great wrestler. Def. not as important as logical match progression or selling or even character expressions. I think Adonis does these things pretty well but I would take Bret over Adonis at this point. I think I would also have Barry over Adonis because he had a longer period of time where I enjoyed his work and had the super high end matches.

 

When I get the Dick Murdoch Japanese work and compile his comp, I have a feeling Dick may be in the Top 5 American workers on my list (excluding Canadians and Eddie )

 

Why not Slaughter, Buddy Rose or Jake specifically? And for kicks, why not Michaels?

On Slaughter...

 

This is just one of those wrestlers that we disagree on. The boot camp match has been a victim of the law of diminishing returns for me since I like it a little less each time I view it (as we had discussed before). I love the Greensboro tag but I think that was all 4 guys going over the top... not just Slaughter "carrying" the other guys. I have still not seen any other great Slaughter performances including the other WF DVDVR matche, the little AWA I have seen, or the Portland matches. To be fair, his Portland work is with the Road Warriors and Kendo Nagasaki so I don't hold that against him.

 

On Buddy Rose...

 

Last week and the week before I watched a ton of Buddy Rose from Portland. Oddly, the one match I did not watch closely was the Adonis match. He was a great heel and annoying as fuck but being the king of Portland is like being the top dog in CZW today. It doesn't mean much in my eyes. Plus, my favorite Rose match so far is the Backlund lumberjack match but I love Backlund and his "formula". I haven't marked out for any other Buddy Rose matches including the Rockers tags.

 

On Jake the Snake...

 

I like some of his Mid South work but not all. I like his Steamboat feud which I think you despise. I may be wrong on that. I don't really like anything else he has done including the Rude feud. I may have to do a Jake the Snake comp to revisit his work but I don't know how big of a priority that will be.

 

 

On HBK...

 

I think his return has really hurt him. I know you complain about indy guys simulating wrestling matches. That is EXACTLY how I feel about Michaels. Look at the Hogan match. You knew he was bumping his ass off for Hogan but you knew it was him simulating the motions of being in a fight with him. When he gave his bitter promo the next night, it only reconfirmed what I watched. The same could be said for the Angle matches that made absolutely no sense to me. I think you were the one who mentioned how those matches ahd ultiple peronalities and I would agree. YOu love/hate/love/hate parts of the matches becuase they were so disjointed.

 

The Bret feud was great and I love the early DX heel shtick but only a small handful of matches stand out for me from that time. I never really cared for the Rockers (per earlier discussion) or the Boy Toy. I may make a comp of his to re-evaluate this as well. Once yo uadd luchadores and Japanese workers to this list, HBK will not be in the Top 100.

 

 

What's your take on the argument that all of Kerry's great matches have him doing nothing? I don't agree with it, but some people seem to think he was Ultimate Warrior-level bad.

On Kerry Von Erich...

 

I think one of two things...

 

1. They haven't really seen alot of Kerry Von Erich and only remember him stumbling around a WWF ring looking lost (a valid complaint) but something that does not show the entire career. To be honest, most guys who are on the message boards were probably still in diapers when Kerry was at his peak (anywhere from 83-85). Hell, it was hard as hell for me to find Kerry's best work (Mid South and Ft. Worth matches) and only did through the goodness that is Dan Ginnetty and our Mid South bulks.

 

 

2. They have some strange bias against him where they already formed an opinion regardless of what the matches actually show.

How many wrestlers have we heard criticized over the years only to change our minds on when we actually see the footage? Slaughter, Duggan, Rick Rude, Magnum TA are just a few. I can count on one hand the number of guys who had good matches with Michael Hayes (singles), Kimala, and One Man Gang. Kerry is on all of those lists. Flair is known for carrying Von Erich but each Flair-Kerry match is an entirely new match and has elevated BOTH guys in my eyes. Seriously, when I make the Kerry-Flair comp, look at how each match froms its own personality and how Kerry is right there wih Flair step-for-step most of the time. I don't have any deep-rooted love for Kerry. I grew up with World Class but I don't mark for him the way I do a Ricky Steamboat or Ted Dibiase. I just watch the matches and the matches have shown me he could work his ass off.

Re: Terry Funk

 

I just couldn't possibly disagree more with anyone, than I disagree with your views on Funk's post-89 work.

 

For starters I hate the KOTDM final and think it's actually a really bad match by virtually any standard. That's one of the few "bad" Terry Funk matches I can think of offhand. So the "throwing each other into bombs" thing isn't something I really dig either, as I assume you would have to be citing that match.

 

Setting that aside, I like alot of Funk's "garbage style" stuff. I don't think any of it is great really, but much of it is good. Even in matches that aren't good Funk is almost across the board the best worker as he always brings alot more than just the expected big bumps to the table. I think Sabu/Funk is a good match. I think Funk was involved in several ECW tag matches in particular that ranged from solid to very good with the best of the bunch being Cactus/Douglas v. Funk/Sandman. I think he had at least one very good match with Foley in ECW and a great RAW match with Foley. I also enjoyed his work with Foley teaming up in WWF. He had a good match with Mark Henry also. I thought he had good matches with Candido, Smiley and others in WCW.

 

I also really enjoyed his match with Bob Armstrong.

 

Funk was briefly around in 94 in WCW working primarily the Rhodes as I recall. IIRC he came back originally for the Slamboree show that year which I believe featured Dick Murdoch busting his ass in a bizaare atheletic display of flying headscissors.

 

So yeah. I just totally disagree. Honestly I don't agree with you on alot of things and I'm probably in the minority with this view on Funk, but I don't think he ever got near the level of shittiness that Flair was at a couple of years ago. That's not to say he's better than Flair, because he had far fewer Classics and worked a much less imposing schedule, but decline v. decline boy I don't think it's even close as to who was worse and it wasn't Funk.

 

Re: Rude/Manny v. Roadies

 

Not sure of the date on hand. It was on youtube.

 

Re: Rey/Vader/Beyer

 

I will have Rey and Vader both way ahead of Beyer. I like Beyer but he is overrated IMO. I think Robinson is a decidely better worker with a similar career track. There will probably be at least thirty-five spots inbetween Vader and Beyer on my list. Robinson is one of two people I currently have inbetween Rey and Vader, though he may move up.

 

Re: Dory Funk Junior

 

I known you weren't addressing me, but I have him in the 70's and he's not likely to climb much higher. Great at what he did, but he was really one dimensional to me and didn't have the flare or spark to put himself in the class of other guys with similar mechanical abilities like Jack Brisco or Billy Robinson.

 

Re: Adrian Adonis

 

I am unsure what to do with him. I am a big time mark for big men who bump well, sell well and then can turn around kick the shit out of people. That's why I love Muraco, Slaughter, Murdoch and others of that ilk. Adonis is probably the best bumper of that template sans maybe Slaughter and the exectuion of his moveset is probably better than any of them, but I still feel I have him too high on my first two drafts. I originally had him ahead of guys like Dibase and Rick Morton and I just don't know if he was THAT good.

 

Re: Barry Windham

 

Windham is number twenty on my list right now. It would be pretty much impossible for me to rate him any higher than that, but I don't see him dropping either. I think he's gonna hold there and I won't feel the least bit guilty about it. If Barry hadn't had such a steep decline I think we'd be talking about him as a top ten candidate or maybe even better. Peak performance there is exactly one American worker I would rate above him and that's Flair. Even that is somewhat disputable as Windham was a better tag worker than Flair and much more versatile.

 

Barry's career is actually really misrepresented these days. He was one of those rare guys that was good out of the gate. He was puting out grand matches with Ron Bass and Bobby Jaggers years before people started talking about him as one of the best in the world thanks to the Flair series. Everyone knows about the Flair matches, and they are arguably better than the Flair/Steamboat ones, but not enough people talk about the fact that Barry was a fucking great tag wrestler with a variety of partners. Even in his last big time run with WCW he was a good tag worker as part of the West Texas Rednecks and that team would run behind his teams with Rotunda, Luger and Rhodes. He worked really smart and seemed to know what style of offense to bring to different matches and how to structure things differently depending on his opponents. This is actually more evident in his 93 run then it is in his more commonly established "prime" which had ended four years prior. Depending on how much you are holding "bad years" against people, Barry is someone I could reasonably see in a top ten.

 

Re: Bob Backlund

 

Boy I really don't like him. I'm actually glad others will probably vote for him highly, because I'm sure part of my dislike for the guy is the fact that his schtick was really outdated by the time I got around to seeing it, but he won't be on my list at all. One of the DVDVR guys made a point in the most recent edition that Backlund has this bizaare "ability" to bore the shit out of you for the first 3/4's of a match, before turning it on at the end and that is so true. To me he is like an inverse Kurt Angle, who fills his matches up with shit I don't care about and looks really dull but somehow builds to a solid, often entertaining finish. This leaves Backlund with alot of good matches, but not many worthwhile performances from bell to bell in my book.

 

Re: Jake Roberts

 

Man he is becoming overrated. I am watching his DVD now and will post thoughts on some of the matches later, but the notion that Jake Roberts can be mentioned in the same breathe as people like Terry Gordy is just bonkers to me. I will say that Jake really worked his matches smartly and the little offense he had he did VERY well, but he's not someone I would ever be able to rate in a top hundred.

 

Re: Shawn Michaels

 

I don't think Michaels got "bad" on the comeback tour until the midway point of last year. He's been very hit or miss actually and in a way that's even worse because an old guy getting bad is more understandable than an old guy getting lazy. Shawn will make my list, but the absolute best I could rate him would be mid 60's and he'll likely be lower than that.

 

I love The Rockers and think they are a really historically underrated team. In fact I think they were better than the Bulldogs or The Harts. That may have been Shawn's peak in my eyes. But Marty was just as good if not better and I bet he won't appear on anyone's list other than maybe mine (he's one hundred on my list right now).

 

I think Shawn builds drama and emotes better than Bret Hart when working a stiff, which is why I prefer his carry jobs and probably always will, but Bret was still a much better worker. For years I didn't buy it, but if you follow career paths I think it's pretty hard to deny as Bret just seemed to be compotent and comfortable working in situations that Shawn never did.

 

96 Michaels used to be what the Shawn argument usually hinged on, but I think everyone agrees now that what he did that year wasn't particularly special. Vader was better in 92/93. Flair was better in 89. So was Funk. And Steamboat. Bret was better in 94. Austin was better in 01. Eddie was better in 04. Shit in 96 you can make a case that Austin, Rey Jr, Malenko, Benoit, Scorpio and Eddy were all as good or better than Shawn. It's just not a valuable myth for him anymore.

 

He is a great gimmick match worker and I think he's more influentiol than he sometime gets credit for, but he's not an upper half guy and I can totally understand why you would leave him off a ballot altogether.

 

Re: Kerry Von Erich

 

The first sentence of option 2 is pretty much how I feel about how you feel about post-89 Funk