Ridiculous quotes from WO.com columnists

[jdw]

Depends on how one defines "conventional wisdom in the smark realm". Do you mean online smarks like the DVDVR? Specific groups within that? Or what all hardcore fans, including the WON/Torch/F-4 writers and their readers?

 

Even with online, there are groups where conventional wisdom (say Kurt is overrated) are at odds with the conventional wisdom elsewhere online (Kurt Rulz!). I'm thinking the wide gulf between the consensus of DVDVR Posters and Scott Keith Readers.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Meltzer is a guy I have NEVER read because of how he looks/talks about matches. In truth I have never had a sub to the Observer, though I lived with/next to someone who has had one for almost twenty years and read it religiously for several years - but it was never about the matches.

 

As I've said before, when I first subscribed to the Torch in late-95 it was the Monday Night Wars that got me to plunk down cash as a fourteen year old, but it was John's writing about AJPW and other Japanese promotions that kept me around.

[Dylan Waco]

So much of the issue right now is a complete disconnect between people who think Davey Richards and the Dragon Gate crew are the best things going in wrestling, and those who not just disagree but view them as actively bad. The former group is really happy with the number of high-end matches in 2010, and the latter (as near as I can tell) is not, or at the very least thinks 2010 is bad relative to other years, and thus someone like Chris Masters is a standout. Nobody is saying that Masters is wrestling at a level such that he would be high-end relative to, say, the mid-90s, or that he's having a bunch of four star matches. But if someone is coming from the perspective that Davey Richards has been in a dozen or so MOTYCs so far this year, and they see praise for Masters and see matches that are good in a 'competent' way than a 'spectacular' way... it's hard to bridge the gap.

 

Let's go back to, say, 2006. A match like Danielson vs KENTA from exactly four years ago is something that appealed to pretty much all the IWC. An opinion along the lines of "ROH puts on the best matches/shows in the US" would not be hugely contentious; even those who disagreed could see a lot to love in ROH. The same absolutely cannot be said about Dragon Gate USA in 2010. Some think it's incredible, others can't stand it.

 

This issue isn't new; for years there has been disagreement with the Meltzer/F4W preference for spotfests (ie. a multi-person ladder match is four stars almost by default). But it's never been so stark, and that's why things are so much more heated between the two factions. There's very little in the way of matches that are consensus MOTYCs anymore.

I agree with parts of the post overall, but as to the bolded part, I'm not as down on 2010 as others. I think most Japanese wrestling is trash even though I try to follow it with some degree of regularity. And in general I think indy wrestling has degenerated dramatically. But WWE continues to regularly put out high quality matches that are equal to or great than stuff from the mid-90's WWF. And IWRG has by all accounts had an incredible year.

[Bix]

Depends on how one defines "conventional wisdom in the smark realm". Do you mean online smarks like the DVDVR? Specific groups within that? Or what all hardcore fans, including the WON/Torch/F-4 writers and their readers?

 

Even with online, there are groups where conventional wisdom (say Kurt is overrated) are at odds with the conventional wisdom elsewhere online (Kurt Rulz!). I'm thinking the wide gulf between the consensus of DVDVR Posters and Scott Keith Readers.

Generally among hardcores, I guess. Even now, is Angle being overrated conventional wisdom outside of DVDVR and "related" forums? Maybe limit it to the internet era since there are more hardcores to draw from and a much lower percentage read the WON than before. With Angle I remember Phil saying he didn't have much more than "Iron Sheik suplexes and Rock-level punches" during the earlier (2000) praise he got. When did Angle reach the "OMG BEST EVAR" point in the Observer & co. circles, anyway? [insert obligitory crack about Alvarez saying Angle is so much better than just about everyone ever that it means a couple years on WWE TV made him an HOFer]

 

One thing that sticks out for me in terms of articulating opinions and how those arguing contrary to those opinions get viewed is a letter Dave got after the 2nd America's Most Wanted-Triple X cage match in TNA. Someone asked for more elaboration on the high (****3/4) rating and Dave's response was pretty much "If you don't think that was an amazing match I don't know what to tell you" in the most condescending way possible.

[kjh]

Wade had a come to Jesus moment? When was that?

[Bix]

"Originally an emotional experience that is life changing, it has evolved to mean a serious argument, one that better result in a change of action or else."

 

I was going with his son being born in the form of the original definition.

[kjh]

Speaking of Angle, there's something that really bugs me about the lack of introspection about cheering on guys to have that regular ****+, matches while they're obviously messed up on pain pills and somas. Dave and Bryan both bag on chairshots to the head, but they were never fans of the hardcore style. They rarely stop and think whether their style of choice is too risky, unless someone does something outrageously dumb.

[Bix]

What did Dave and Bryan say about Angle after WM 19 (and then a year later when the documentary about it came out)?

[Ditch]

I agree with parts of the post overall, but as to the bolded part, I'm not as down on 2010 as others. I think most Japanese wrestling is trash even though I try to follow it with some degree of regularity. And in general I think indy wrestling has degenerated dramatically. But WWE continues to regularly put out high quality matches that are equal to or great than stuff from the mid-90's WWF. And IWRG has by all accounts had an incredible year.

I don't follow WWE but that seems like a fair assessment. Still that's only two promotions when in the '80s and '90s you always had several great ones to choose from. Masters as top 5, 10, whatever in today's WWE would put him up pretty high globally, but that level of performing in a stronger year would have him quite a bit lower. Whereas, many people probably think Davey Richards' 2010 is strong enough that he would rank high in any year.

[KrisZ]

We are currently working on the All-Japan set and the Sayama of that set is definitely Bruiser Brody. Brody & Hansen as well although more Brody really drag down matches by being complete no selling assholes when they wanted to and making established guys look bad like Dory who they would make look like a complete jobber at times. Brody would sell for Baba of course since he was the boss and occasionally for others when in the right mood but more often than not it was him beating guys up and giving nothing in return. The best opponent for Brody & Hansen was Terry Funk because Terry was so awesome at taking punishment and selling that it actually didn't really bother you as much if he got his ass kicked because he was so awesome while in the same match Dory was made to look like Rocky King. Dave has been preaching the greatness of Brody for years as being the greatest brawler of his era or near that level but it's Hansen who was the best brawler of that team as he was more well-rounded than Brody was but he doesn't have a Larry Matsyzik championing his cause to Dave constantly like Brody did.

[Sean Liska]

I don't think Brody is popular with Meltzer because anyone championed him. Meltzer and the sheet community loved Brody back then. I don't really get it. I understand why Tiger Mask was so well-regarded since he did things athletically that are still amazing today. The entire matches don't stand up, but his highspots were breathtaking. I don't understand the Brody stuff outside of him having a great presence.

[Loss]

I understand that Brody was popular among the hardcores once upon a time, but I think it's more contrarian to like Brody than it is dislike him these days. Aside from Gordi and of course Dave, I don't think I've ever come across anyone on a message board that actually liked him.

[jdw]

Is McAdam still a Brody lover?

 

I bet Keith or Bix would get slogged on the WO-4 boards pointing out that Brody wasn't great.

 

John

[jdw]

And Sean's point is correct: Dave loved Brody from day one of the WON, and seemingly prior to it. Dave's a champion of Brody, and doesn't really need Larry to help much.

 

John

[rovert]

"Originally an emotional experience that is life changing, it has evolved to mean a serious argument, one that better result in a change of action or else."

 

I was going with his son being born in the form of the original definition.

His work ethic returned thats for sure.

[KrisZ]

Yeah Dave definitely has loved Brody from day one but he has had Larry co-sign for him on radio shows over the years and yes if you go to Wrestling Classics or the F4W boards and bring the Brody criticism you will get some anger for sure. And it's not saying that Brody wasn't good its just that he wasn't as great as he was ordained to be in these matches.

[kjh]

Part of it is Bruiser Brody having the foresight to champion himself to Dave Meltzer at the time.

[KrisZ]

Oh yeah he was the first of the wrestlers to really embrace Dave with guys like Gilbert & Pillman following in his footsteps. What was funny though was when Brody was booking World Class in their darkest year of 1987, he never blamed Brody for the product sucking it was always something else.

[jdw]

I suspect that Dave put over Brody in the WON (right from the start in early 1983) before Brody started talking to Dave. It's possible that Dave had Brody as a source prior to starting the WON, but it doesn't read like it. Dave appears to have been a big fan of Brody's similar to Flair: long before he talked with them.

 

I think people are putting to much thought into why the WON has written so highly of Brody's work over the years. The reason is straight forward: Dave was a big fan of Brody's work. It's one of those workers that clicked for him.

 

John

[goodhelmet]

In reference to the 80s project, I don't think that people have really touched upon the real contribution. It isn't to point out how crappy guys like Tiger Mask are. In fact, with the exception of 2 matches, we seriously thought that we were putting on the best matches that Sayama had to offer. The real contribution is the exposure to matches that may not have been pimped or were only hailed as awesome by so few people with minimal reach that they might as well have been hidden. We took the time to go through ALL available footage to find those special matches so people could enjoy them.

[jdw]

I don't think anyone is saying the point of the 80s project is to point out who sucks.

 

My earlier comment had these thoughts behind it:

 

* there were going to be Sayama matches on the NJPW set

 

* folks were going to see he isn't as good as the legend

 

On the first, it's basically impossible to do 150 matches of NJPW from the 80s without Sayama matches. He was an iconic wrestler in the promotion, with iconic matches. Some of them have to be on there, with a mix between the best and the most famous. This is same general reason that Hogan matches have to be on the WWF set, and while the general process would be to get the "best" it also means something like Hogan-Andre from Mania III *has* to be on the WWF set. It is one of the two biggest matches in pro wrestling in the entire decade (and frankly the other one needs to make the 80s WWF set as well).

 

If 150 matches isn't enough to get in someone as iconic to a promotion's decade, with a mix of his "best" and his most important, then a set needs to be expanded to 175 matches. It really doesn't matter if something like Tiger-DK or Hogan-Andre ends up at #175. In a project like this folks need to see it in the context of other matches from the promotion in that decade, see how it fits in and judge it within that context. That's a great value to the project. Not that those matches suck, but that people are able to put them into the context of the larger promotion.

 

On the second point, the rest of this thread has plenty of discussion on why folks were going to think Sayama would stick out as not as great as the legend/hype. It was very expected by folks who've participated in Sayama discussions over the years, or even were slightly paying attention to comments coming out of the Selection Team as the matches were being sifted through.

 

I could make a similar prediction about a wrestler in the All Japan set, though in the other direction.

 

John

[KrisZ]

I'm curious about who you talking about in the All-Japan set.

[jdw]

Tenryu.

[KrisZ]

Tenryu may be my favorite wrestler on the set right now especially after the turn. Him & Hara as a team was phenomenal and the Jumbo feud in general was my favorite feud on the set but I've loved Tenryu for 20 years.

[Bix]

How UFC's attempts to control the media and unwritten message board rules distort MMA news coverage

 

Yes, I went there.